You are not quoting me, you are interpreting my statements. No wonder you can't communicate.

Was everything you said historically accurate? No, sorry. You cherry pick one item, which did happen to a limited degree, that's called a "Spotlight Fallacy".

Then you commit a "Guilt By Association" fallacy, by suggesting that all Christians are guilty of the crimes commited by the Catholic church.

I did quote you. Are you denying that those are your statements? Are you denying the meaning of your statements? Are you Abra's sister?

My statements above, which you interpreted, were directed to you and not to all Christians in general.

You must consider yourself, (as abra has said), to be the spokesperson for all Christians everywhere. Now I can see first hand what he is talking about.

I think I am wasting my time talking to you.

Go have your nice day and step away from the computer. Your wife probably would like some attention.

Jeannie

Okay, so I'm a blind sheep loner? And that makes sense to you?

I'm officially declaring this a dead thread.

make it so
so be it
so it is.
Jeanniebean

JB,

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I think it's funny that you call me a blind sheep and a loner. I think you were just angry with me and misspoke, but those statements contradict one another. But it's Friday and it's a good day, so let's just quit arguing and have some laughs.

Clearly those stories had to be made up by men.

At least that's my belief.

I wish they had a better stick my tongue out at ya abra.....

Well, do you believe that God could be so deceitful and sadistic as to openly proclaim that he is going to cause people to become delusional and make them believe a lie just so he can have an excuse to damn them?

I would rather believe that men made these storeis up than to believe that our creator is actually a sick sadistic demon.

If you prefer to believe that God is a demented jealous disturbed deity, more power to you!

Personally, I refuse to go there.

It's much more respectful of God to believe that these stories are the demented lies of men.

I could not have said it any better, myself. This is something that has had my attention for quite some time now, yet I try very hard to not assume anything.

"the religion I love"...



What is perceived as real is real in it's affects...



What does it say about one if one claims to love the contextual representation of a 'God' and/or this world as perceived by group of men, which has/had been determined by another group of men to be of divine origin?

What would one be so in love with, 'God' or another's historical representation thereof?

CreativeSoul,

I believe that the Bible is the word of God. Everyone must make their own mind up about what the Bible is. A book of stories, pornography, mind control, the Word of God, etc. Each person should be able to make up their own mind. Then we all have to dance together and not step on each other's toes. Those who take a negative view of the Bible should keep in mind that some people have a positive view of the Bible. Those people might be hurt, offended and alienated by anyone who treats the Bible lightly. I think that someone who doesn't regard the Bible, the Koran, the Bagavagita as holy will gain nothing but anamosity from mocking those documents to those who do consider them holy.

I'll give you an example: If I were to contemptously mock Hinduism around my friend Tajinder, then I would probably lose his friendship. But if I have decided that Hinduism has no value to me, but my friend Tajinder does have value to me, then I should refrain from mocking his religion. Even if Tajinder wasn't a friend, we still have to work together. What profit would I get from mocking his beliefs? What if we didn't work together and I just passed him on the street. I still don't profit and now I've managed to offend someone without reason. I can't see any profit from mocking or belittling the beliefs of others.

What about challenging the beliefs of others? Could I take examples from sacred Hindu texts and try to disprove them? Sure I can. But what do I gain? What good comes from doing that? I can be sure that Tajinder wouldn't become a Christian, because I would look like a complete jerk and just make him angry. I don't see how any good could come from it.

If one person thinks that the Bible is the word of God and another thinks it's just mind control, what business is it of the former what the latter believes? Because someone thinks anothers beliefs are false, then they should be mocked? Should someone judge what beliefs are right for others to believe?

There’s a difference between mocking someone and simply considering the ancient history of humankind.

I think proselytizers often hide behind the farce of personal insult in a desperate attempt to ward off rational views of what they are trying to push as divine.

I will never hesitate to suggest that it is my sincere belief that Jesus was most likely just a mortal man, and that the Bible was more likely than not purely manmade mythology.

If anyone takes personal offense to those suggestions that’s their problem, not mine. I don’t suggest these things to mock anyone’s beliefs. I suggest them for the sake of intelligent free thinkers who value sincere and open discussion.

Proselytizers of religions would love nothing more than to enforce a mandatory ‘official recognition’ of their religious doctrines as being ‘sacred’ by all. This would appears to give their documents more ‘credibility’.

In truth, the bible has no ‘credibility’ from a divine perspective. It only has ‘credibility’ in having actually been written by ancient humans on earth (i.e. it’s clearly going to contain stories about persons, places and events that may have actually occurred in history) . But it has no divine credibility.

That’s just a fact. This is why it must be accepted on pure faith by those who do choose to believe in its divinity.

If you choose to believe that something is sacred, then you are the one who is making it sacred and it is only sacred to you and others who have made that choice. It’s not sacred to those who do not wish to see it as such. Yet it is still a valid part of their history as any other piece of literature is. Therefore they have every right to view it in that way.

So it’s totally bogus to accuse people of ‘mockery’ who choose to view the Bible as the mythological writings of man. This view is just as valid as any other view.

If I hold a rock in reverence, not any rock but one given us by god and others have a hard time believing it, I will have to accept that they cannot see it as I do. They may have valid reasons but if I believe this rock to be divine then it is divine to me and no matter what anyone says it will continue to be divine to me.

I do not expect others to believe as I do, I do not expect them to even see my beliefs as anything other than my beliefs. If I get into a debate and throw myself and my "rock" into the mix, I will expect all the thoughts and disbelief others have over my rock. If I choose to throw my rock around in the mix of the debate, it is going to get beat up, so hopefully it is a strong rock. And hopefully my beliefs are strong enough to uphold myself and my rock. I cannot expect others to buy my belief and my rock as truth because it is not their truth it is mine.

They don't have to accept your "rock" as the truth, they just have to respect you enough to not attack your beliefs. If their beliefs are truely better than yours, then surely they could speak about the beauty and truth they have found in their own beliefs. There is never a need to mock the beliefs of others, unless you hold those people in low enough regard to not be concerned if their feelings are hurt. Personally, I never want to hurt someones feelings unless I'm angry and I always regret it later. I value each and every person, not just those who believe the way I do.

When you tell people that your religious doctrine is the only true word of God you mock their beliefs by that very proclamation.

This is what you can’t seem to understand.

Your standard response is always, “But this is what I BELIEVE!”

We understand that Spider but try to seriously consider what I’m trying to say in the rest of this post.

Christianity holds no special place in the world of faith. It’s a faith-based religion just like all the rest.

Just because it claims to be the only true word of God doesn’t make it so.

This is the part we can’t seem to communicate to you Spider

Your belief in the claims of your doctrine are nothing more than your faith.

In other words, your Bible doesn’t have any more legitimacy than Dragoness’ hypothetical divine rock.

Nor any less.

Do you understand that?

Your faith that your Bible is the only true word of God is just that,…. Your Faith.

Do you see?

I realize that your doctrine itself claims it is truth, but it is still your faith that the doctrine is true.

In other words, you don’t have any absolute truth.

All you have is absolute faith.

But you can’t seem to understand this.

You keep trying to push your absolute faith onto people as though it is absolute truth.

That’s what everyone is trying to get you to see.

If you could only understand this. I mean, genuinely understand it. We would all be so very grateful.

No one wants to change your faith, all we want you to do is realize that this is precisely what it is.

This is what Voileazur has been trying to get you to see for months.

You don’t hold any absolute truth that is absolutely true for everyone.

What you have is absolute faith.

And that’s GREAT!

But it’s not our faith!

And that’s all we’re trying to get you to see.

All we ask is that you recognize that your absolute faith is not absolute truth.

Until you do that, you will forever be renouncing all other faiths as being absolutely false.

my sweet I am picking you up for tahiti in the morning.....where do you come up with this stuff.

Yeah yeah yeah. I got all that, okay?

Now let me tell you what you seem to ignore every time I say it. EVERYONE BELIEVES THAT THEY ARE RIGHT. Everyone. You do, don't you? But not everyone feels that they must mock the beliefs of others. I respect the other members too much to mock their beliefs. I mocked your beliefs once, when trying to make this point to you. Of course, you didn't get it and I only made myself feel dirty. I'm better than that. I don't need to mock the beliefs of others to feel good about mine.

And thank you so much for your altruism. Now, please do me the favor I have been begging one of you to do. Post quotes from me, when I'm trying to force my beliefs onto anyone in this forum. Please. Do this, because you obviously love me enough to tell me I'm wrong...constantly. So show an example. Just one. Because you know what...I think I am just posting my beliefs. I don't think I do anything different from anyone else here. If you think that I'm wrong, then SHOW me. Don't just say it, because I've been honest and told you "I don't see it!" SHOW ME. That's the only way I can know if you are telling the truth or just trying to tear me down. ONCE AGAIN...HONEST TO GOD, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT I AM DOING ANYTHING THAT ANYONE ELSE DOESN'T DO. IF YOU DON'T RESPOND WITH A QUOTE SHOWING ME FORCING MY BELIEFS ONTO SOMEONE, THEN YOU ARE A LIAR AND A HYPOCRITE. Thanks for your time.

My interpretation of the bible is just as important as any christians interpretation of the bible, know why? I have a right to my interpretation just like a christian does. One is not more important, more revered, or more right then the other.

I have told you that I do not hold the bible in reverence. So if you take the reverence out of it and discuss it as a book men wrote and then we can discuss the interpretations of what the men wrote. Why these men of old thought this way, why would these men of old think this way of the universe, etc.... But to try to beat me down with it being the word of god will not accomplish anything in these discussions because it cannot be agreed upon that that is what it is. Once we got past that part we could discuss away everything in the universe but the reverence for the bible cannot be forced on those who do not rever it.

There is alot more to the world and the universe then the bible and christian teachings, the world is a big place with lots of ideals and perspectives. We all have our own and when sharing them it would be nice if someone says they do not rever the bible to have the christian just share their personal views without the beating with the bible.

I am just saying this to try to help these threads go along smoother. I don't know if that would help or not. But it seems for a christian to think outside of the box of the bible is difficult for them sometimes.

I hope this helps