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| Topic: Did God create evil? | |
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Sat 02/16/08 12:17 PM
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Reference supporting scripture please....I am going by Exodus 7:3...... This is God predicting the future. If you read the scriptures, you will see that God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart until Pharaoh had been given many chances to repent. MIRACLE OF THE STAFF TURNED INTO A REPTILE Exodus 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. RIVER OF BLOOD Exodus 7:23 And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also. PLAGUE OF FROGS Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. PLAGUE OF LICE Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This [is] the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. PLAGUE OF FLIES Exodus 8:31 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. DEATH OF LIVESTOCK Exodus 9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. PLAGUE OF BOILS Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. The count is one miracle and five miraculous plagues, before God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Because God said "I will do this", that doesn't mean that God did it from the beginning. From the beginning, Pharaoh had the ablility to keep his word to the Lord, but he choose not to. EDIT I SHOULD POINT OUT THAT BEFORE EACH OF THESE "PHARAOH HARDENED HIS HEART..." IS PHARAOH SAYING "TELL YOUR GOD I'M SORRY, YOU CAN LEAVE". EACH TIME, PHARAOH LIED TO GOD. PHARAOH WAS AWARE THAT GOD EXISTED, BECAUSE GOD WAS MANIFESTING HIS POWER WITHIN EQYPT. |
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But call my God a myth...call His Son Jesus Christ a myth and call the Bible a book of fables and you will have a fight on your hand.... My point exactly. Christians are prone to violence and threats. But let me ease your anger "sweetie." That "your" God is a myth is my opinion. That "Jesus" is a myth is my opinion. Everything I say and everything you say is an opinion. If you want to go to war over that I will give you my address. Jeannie And your entitled to that.....and I was not threatening you as a human being.....I was saying that to the effect that I believe anyone can believe as they wish....grant me the same....and I will proove in every way that God is who he is....That Jesus Christ is who he is....(historically proven sweets) and that the Bible is the inspired word of God.....And Christians once again labeling us as war mongers is something in your head because it just isn't true.... Feralcatlady asks: "....I was saying that to the effect that I believe anyone can believe as they wish....grant me the same..." Your wish is granted. You may believe as you wish. Jeanniebean aka : the magic genie |
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This logic is backward....It does not properly address the "fact" that "God" personally intervened & manipulated the situation to ensure Pharaoh's heart was so hardened that he would refuse to faithfully negotiate with Moses, so that "God" could fulfill his master plan of punishing Egypt for not worshiping him instead of their own "Gods". This little "lesson" is so contrived & underhanded that it is as prime an example of Machiavellianism as I have ever seen. The logic is NOT backwards. God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until after Pharaoh had lied several times, like I said, I think it was seven. Pharaoh had seven chances to do the right thing before God decided to use him for his own purpose. Reference supporting scripture please....I am going by Exodus 7:3...... This does once again not take rocket science....God and Moses gave pharaoh chance after chance after chance....and did he heed to their warnings no.....It took loosing his first born and even when Moses told him that this would happen already after he brought down plague after plague on Egypt...Pharaoh still said poo poo to Moses and to God. Do you even think for a minute of the different outcome had Pharaoh not been so stuborn and let God's people go from when Moses turned the river to blood......So the only person to blame for what happen to Egypt is Pharaoh not God. And again understand something. God is a loving God.....he has given the human race chance after chance to turn from their wicked ways.....that is love......But because people think that they can do it their way and justify it away....well by golly george then they will also pay the price for that......And that doesn't mean that I don't or every other Christian doesn't sin on a daily basis....we do....we just know right when we do....and we don't justify our sin....we ask through Jesus Christ to forgive us for our iniquities...... It might be understandable if he struck down just the Pharoes son. He didn't do that. He struck down the first born of every Egyptian and every servant and all the cattle too. They had no power over what the Pharo did. They had to pay with their children. What part of the loving God is that? |
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Edited by
feralcatlady
on
Sat 02/16/08 12:29 PM
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This logic is backward....It does not properly address the "fact" that "God" personally intervened & manipulated the situation to ensure Pharaoh's heart was so hardened that he would refuse to faithfully negotiate with Moses, so that "God" could fulfill his master plan of punishing Egypt for not worshiping him instead of their own "Gods". This little "lesson" is so contrived & underhanded that it is as prime an example of Machiavellianism as I have ever seen. Pharaoh was in charge of all the people of Egypt as their leader....if anyone is to blame......blame the leader......He decided to poo God and Moses knowing full well all that Moses had already showed him about God. And even in my opinion when God took all the first born and Pharaoh let God's people go....He couldn't let it be....He sent his army to kill all Gods people anyway....and well you know what God did then when he parted the Red Sea.........so stubborn be.......and pay the price. The logic is NOT backwards. God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until after Pharaoh had lied several times, like I said, I think it was seven. Pharaoh had seven chances to do the right thing before God decided to use him for his own purpose. Reference supporting scripture please....I am going by Exodus 7:3...... This does once again not take rocket science....God and Moses gave pharaoh chance after chance after chance....and did he heed to their warnings no.....It took loosing his first born and even when Moses told him that this would happen already after he brought down plague after plague on Egypt...Pharaoh still said poo poo to Moses and to God. Do you even think for a minute of the different outcome had Pharaoh not been so stuborn and let God's people go from when Moses turned the river to blood......So the only person to blame for what happen to Egypt is Pharaoh not God. And again understand something. God is a loving God.....he has given the human race chance after chance to turn from their wicked ways.....that is love......But because people think that they can do it their way and justify it away....well by golly george then they will also pay the price for that......And that doesn't mean that I don't or every other Christian doesn't sin on a daily basis....we do....we just know right when we do....and we don't justify our sin....we ask through Jesus Christ to forgive us for our iniquities...... It might be understandable if he struck down just the Pharoes son. He didn't do that. He struck down the first born of every Egyptian and every servant and all the cattle too. They had no power over what the Pharo did. They had to pay with their children. What part of the loving God is that? What you fair to see....Is that Pharaoh made the choices he made....Even when God took all the first born and Pharaoh let God's people go.....He was still being stubborn and sent his armies to kill all God's people...Well we know what happen their when God parted the Red Sea.....so stubborn is......and pay the price. And you can blame God......but it was not God it was Pharaoh who made all that happen to Egypt happen. |
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Reference supporting scripture please....I am going by Exodus 7:3...... This is God predicting the future. If you read the scriptures, you will see that God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart until Pharaoh had been given many chances to repent. MIRACLE OF THE STAFF TURNED INTO A REPTILE Exodus 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. RIVER OF BLOOD Exodus 7:23 And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also. PLAGUE OF FROGS Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. PLAGUE OF LICE Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This [is] the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. PLAGUE OF FLIES Exodus 8:31 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. DEATH OF LIVESTOCK Exodus 9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. PLAGUE OF BOILS Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. The count is one miracle and five miraculous plagues, before God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Because God said "I will do this", that doesn't mean that God did it from the beginning. From the beginning, Pharaoh had the ablility to keep his word to the Lord, but he choose not to. EDIT I SHOULD POINT OUT THAT BEFORE EACH OF THESE "PHARAOH HARDENED HIS HEART..." IS PHARAOH SAYING "TELL YOUR GOD I'M SORRY, YOU CAN LEAVE". EACH TIME, PHARAOH LIED TO GOD. PHARAOH WAS AWARE THAT GOD EXISTED, BECAUSE GOD WAS MANIFESTING HIS POWER WITHIN EQYPT. These verses clearly show that the "heart hardening" was premeditated, and preemptive. Pharoah never had a chance. "God" was going to do this, no matter what. "God" clearly says to Moses that even though I give you these signs and wonders, it won't matter, because I have already caused a predisposition in Pharoah to discount and ignore them. "(3) But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, (4) Pharaoh will not listen to you; then I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring forth my hosts, my people the sons of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. (5) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth my hand upon Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them." You are also making a grave error in assuming that I am not fully familiar with, conversant in regard to, and cognizant of, many religious tracts; not just the several versions of the "Bible". With Christianity, I was once, as you are.....Now, I know that I can be happy without the drugs. |
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Edited by
yzrabbit1
on
Sat 02/16/08 12:39 PM
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This logic is backward....It does not properly address the "fact" that "God" personally intervened & manipulated the situation to ensure Pharaoh's heart was so hardened that he would refuse to faithfully negotiate with Moses, so that "God" could fulfill his master plan of punishing Egypt for not worshiping him instead of their own "Gods". This little "lesson" is so contrived & underhanded that it is as prime an example of Machiavellianism as I have ever seen. Pharaoh was in charge of all the people of Egypt as their leader....if anyone is to blame......blame the leader......He decided to poo God and Moses knowing full well all that Moses had already showed him about God. And even in my opinion when God took all the first born and Pharaoh let God's people go....He couldn't let it be....He sent his army to kill all Gods people anyway....and well you know what God did then when he parted the Red Sea.........so stubborn be.......and pay the price. The logic is NOT backwards. God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until after Pharaoh had lied several times, like I said, I think it was seven. Pharaoh had seven chances to do the right thing before God decided to use him for his own purpose. Reference supporting scripture please....I am going by Exodus 7:3...... This does once again not take rocket science....God and Moses gave pharaoh chance after chance after chance....and did he heed to their warnings no.....It took loosing his first born and even when Moses told him that this would happen already after he brought down plague after plague on Egypt...Pharaoh still said poo poo to Moses and to God. Do you even think for a minute of the different outcome had Pharaoh not been so stuborn and let God's people go from when Moses turned the river to blood......So the only person to blame for what happen to Egypt is Pharaoh not God. And again understand something. God is a loving God.....he has given the human race chance after chance to turn from their wicked ways.....that is love......But because people think that they can do it their way and justify it away....well by golly george then they will also pay the price for that......And that doesn't mean that I don't or every other Christian doesn't sin on a daily basis....we do....we just know right when we do....and we don't justify our sin....we ask through Jesus Christ to forgive us for our iniquities...... It might be understandable if he struck down just the Pharoes son. He didn't do that. He struck down the first born of every Egyptian and every servant and all the cattle too. They had no power over what the Pharo did. They had to pay with their children. What part of the loving God is that? What you fair to see....Is that Pharaoh made the choices he made....Even when God took all the first born and Pharaoh let God's people go.....He was still being stubborn and sent his armies to kill all God's people...Well we know what happen their when God parted the Red Sea.....so stubborn is......and pay the price. And you can blame God......but it was not God it was Pharaoh who made all that happen to Egypt happen. Im afraid that I am going to have to go back to my claim that babies are wonderful and beautiful and sin free. They should not have to die because some guy is telling a lie. If God can kill a baby to teach Pharaoh a lesson then why can't he kill the devil to teach the devil a lesson? |
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This logic is backward....It does not properly address the "fact" that "God" personally intervened & manipulated the situation to ensure Pharaoh's heart was so hardened that he would refuse to faithfully negotiate with Moses, so that "God" could fulfill his master plan of punishing Egypt for not worshiping him instead of their own "Gods". This little "lesson" is so contrived & underhanded that it is as prime an example of Machiavellianism as I have ever seen. Pharaoh was in charge of all the people of Egypt as their leader....if anyone is to blame......blame the leader......He decided to poo God and Moses knowing full well all that Moses had already showed him about God. And even in my opinion when God took all the first born and Pharaoh let God's people go....He couldn't let it be....He sent his army to kill all Gods people anyway....and well you know what God did then when he parted the Red Sea.........so stubborn be.......and pay the price. The logic is NOT backwards. God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until after Pharaoh had lied several times, like I said, I think it was seven. Pharaoh had seven chances to do the right thing before God decided to use him for his own purpose. Reference supporting scripture please....I am going by Exodus 7:3...... This does once again not take rocket science....God and Moses gave pharaoh chance after chance after chance....and did he heed to their warnings no.....It took loosing his first born and even when Moses told him that this would happen already after he brought down plague after plague on Egypt...Pharaoh still said poo poo to Moses and to God. Do you even think for a minute of the different outcome had Pharaoh not been so stuborn and let God's people go from when Moses turned the river to blood......So the only person to blame for what happen to Egypt is Pharaoh not God. And again understand something. God is a loving God.....he has given the human race chance after chance to turn from their wicked ways.....that is love......But because people think that they can do it their way and justify it away....well by golly george then they will also pay the price for that......And that doesn't mean that I don't or every other Christian doesn't sin on a daily basis....we do....we just know right when we do....and we don't justify our sin....we ask through Jesus Christ to forgive us for our iniquities...... It might be understandable if he struck down just the Pharoes son. He didn't do that. He struck down the first born of every Egyptian and every servant and all the cattle too. They had no power over what the Pharo did. They had to pay with their children. What part of the loving God is that? What you fair to see....Is that Pharaoh made the choices he made....Even when God took all the first born and Pharaoh let God's people go.....He was still being stubborn and sent his armies to kill all God's people...Well we know what happen their when God parted the Red Sea.....so stubborn is......and pay the price. And you can blame God......but it was not God it was Pharaoh who made all that happen to Egypt happen. Im afraid that I am going to have to go back to my claim that babies are wonderful and beautiful and sin free. They should not have to die because some guy is telling a lie. If God can kill a baby to teach Pharaoh a lesson then why can't he kill the devil to teach the devil a lesson? Satan will also get his....But as of now he is able to roam both on earth and in heaven....And he is angry...because he knows his time is limited and so all that is bad and evil is of satan.....When Christ claims the kingdom once more satan will be banished forever and ever...... |
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Sat 02/16/08 12:50 PM
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These verses clearly show that the "heart hardening" was premeditated, and preemptive. Pharoah never had a chance. "God" was going to do this, no matter what. "God" clearly says to Moses that even though I give you these signs and wonders, it won't matter, because I have already caused a predisposition in Pharoah to discount and ignore them. "(3) But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, (4) Pharaoh will not listen to you; then I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring forth my hosts, my people the sons of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. (5) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth my hand upon Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them." You are also making a grave error in assuming that I am not fully familiar with, conversant in regard to, and cognizant of, many religious tracts; not just the several versions of the "Bible". With Christianity, I was once, as you are.....Now, I know that I can be happy without the drugs. God knows the future, God was aware of how Pharaoh was going to act and developed his plans based on that. If God had done this to Pharaoh capriciously, then it would be an entirely unique situation. But what we see throughout the old testament is God warning a people and then punishing them if they don't heed the warning. Jericho got one warning, Pharaoh got many. You are also making a grave error in assuming that I am not fully familiar with, conversant in regard to, and cognizant of, many religious tracts; not just the several versions of the "Bible". With Christianity, I was once, as you are.....Now, I know that I can be happy without the drugs. I made no such assumption, you requested scripture and I provided it. To no effect, I might add, because it didn't change your mind. Perhaps you simply wanted me to waste 30 minutes of my Saturday afternoon? |
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These verses clearly show that the "heart hardening" was premeditated, and preemptive. Pharoah never had a chance. "God" was going to do this, no matter what. "God" clearly says to Moses that even though I give you these signs and wonders, it won't matter, because I have already caused a predisposition in Pharoah to discount and ignore them. "(3) But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, (4) Pharaoh will not listen to you; then I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring forth my hosts, my people the sons of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. (5) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth my hand upon Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them." You are also making a grave error in assuming that I am not fully familiar with, conversant in regard to, and cognizant of, many religious tracts; not just the several versions of the "Bible". With Christianity, I was once, as you are.....Now, I know that I can be happy without the drugs. God knows the future, God was aware of how Pharaoh was going to act and developed his plans based on that. If God had done this to Pharaoh capriciously, then it would be an entirely unique situation. But what we see throughout the old testament is God warning a people and then punishing them if they don't heed the warning. Jericho got one warning, Pharaoh got many. You are also making a grave error in assuming that I am not fully familiar with, conversant in regard to, and cognizant of, many religious tracts; not just the several versions of the "Bible". With Christianity, I was once, as you are.....Now, I know that I can be happy without the drugs. I made no such assumption, you requested scripture and I provided it. To no effect, I might add, because it didn't change your mind. Perhaps you simply wanted me to waste 30 minutes of my Saturday afternoon? Pharaoh didn't pay the price innocent babies did. Babies lying in their cribs. Beautiful perfect Babies. I don't think Babies should die no matter how many times some guy lies. |
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God created Satan...Satan wanted to be like God and as a result of that desire Satan committed the first sin in the spirit world...
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This logic is backward....It does not properly address the "fact" that "God" personally intervened & manipulated the situation to ensure Pharaoh's heart was so hardened that he would refuse to faithfully negotiate with Moses, so that "God" could fulfill his master plan of punishing Egypt for not worshiping him instead of their own "Gods". This little "lesson" is so contrived & underhanded that it is as prime an example of Machiavellianism as I have ever seen. Pharaoh was in charge of all the people of Egypt as their leader....if anyone is to blame......blame the leader......He decided to poo God and Moses knowing full well all that Moses had already showed him about God. And even in my opinion when God took all the first born and Pharaoh let God's people go....He couldn't let it be....He sent his army to kill all Gods people anyway....and well you know what God did then when he parted the Red Sea.........so stubborn be.......and pay the price. The logic is NOT backwards. God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until after Pharaoh had lied several times, like I said, I think it was seven. Pharaoh had seven chances to do the right thing before God decided to use him for his own purpose. Reference supporting scripture please....I am going by Exodus 7:3...... This does once again not take rocket science....God and Moses gave pharaoh chance after chance after chance....and did he heed to their warnings no.....It took loosing his first born and even when Moses told him that this would happen already after he brought down plague after plague on Egypt...Pharaoh still said poo poo to Moses and to God. Do you even think for a minute of the different outcome had Pharaoh not been so stuborn and let God's people go from when Moses turned the river to blood......So the only person to blame for what happen to Egypt is Pharaoh not God. And again understand something. God is a loving God.....he has given the human race chance after chance to turn from their wicked ways.....that is love......But because people think that they can do it their way and justify it away....well by golly george then they will also pay the price for that......And that doesn't mean that I don't or every other Christian doesn't sin on a daily basis....we do....we just know right when we do....and we don't justify our sin....we ask through Jesus Christ to forgive us for our iniquities...... It might be understandable if he struck down just the Pharoes son. He didn't do that. He struck down the first born of every Egyptian and every servant and all the cattle too. They had no power over what the Pharo did. They had to pay with their children. What part of the loving God is that? What you fair to see....Is that Pharaoh made the choices he made....Even when God took all the first born and Pharaoh let God's people go.....He was still being stubborn and sent his armies to kill all God's people...Well we know what happen their when God parted the Red Sea.....so stubborn is......and pay the price. And you can blame God......but it was not God it was Pharaoh who made all that happen to Egypt happen. Im afraid that I am going to have to go back to my claim that babies are wonderful and beautiful and sin free. They should not have to die because some guy is telling a lie. If God can kill a baby to teach Pharaoh a lesson then why can't he kill the devil to teach the devil a lesson? Satan will also get his....But as of now he is able to roam both on earth and in heaven....And he is angry...because he knows his time is limited and so all that is bad and evil is of satan.....When Christ claims the kingdom once more satan will be banished forever and ever...... I feel like I'm watching MRT3K ("Mystery Religion Theater 3000"). 
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God created Satan...Satan wanted to be like God and as a result of that desire Satan committed the first sin in the spirit world... Everybody wants to be like God. And why not? |
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Pharaoh didn't pay the price innocent babies did. Babies lying in their cribs. Beautiful perfect Babies. I don't think Babies should die no matter how many times some guy lies. Just wondering there...Do you support a womans right to choose? God gave life too all things. God maintains that life through his force of will. God gave Pharaoh six chances to repent and avoid this situation. Those children were effected by Pharaoh's choices. |
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And again understand something. God is a loving God.....he has given the human race chance after chance to turn from their wicked ways.....that is love......But because people think that they can do it their way and justify it away....well by golly george then they will also pay the price for that...... This kind of rhetoric assumes that the biblical God is real. But that’s the whole point Feral. There’s no reason why anyone should believe that God is as wicked as the Bible says. They prefer to believe that God is better than that picture. It’s this kind of ‘accusation’ that if people don’ t believe in the biblical God that they are somehow rejecting God is what is so insulting to people who prefer not to believe the biblical picture. Jennie made a perfect point in another thread,…. Only people who do not know how to love need religion to tell them the difference between right and wrong behavior. If you act with divine love you will always do the right thing. Christianity has no place for these natural loving people. Christianity assumes that everyone is inherently evil and can’t possibly do anything right without an instruction book. That’s the fallacy in that thinking. Just because people don’t wish to believe that the biblical picture of an angry vengeful jealous God has anything to do with the real God. Doesn’t mean that they are rejecting God. It simply means that they believe God to be much better than that demented picture. We are actually giving God a compliment by saying that we believe he is far better than the deity portrayed in the biblical myths. Nobody’s rejecting God here. They are rejecting a picture that they feel doesn’t do God justice. They believe that God is more loving than that.  |
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Why does it matter?
 Evil exists.  I wish it didn't but it does for now all we can do is keep going and try to not do evil ourselves. We can try and convince others not to do evil too but we all know evil exists. |
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These verses clearly show that the "heart hardening" was premeditated, and preemptive. Pharoah never had a chance. "God" was going to do this, no matter what. "God" clearly says to Moses that even though I give you these signs and wonders, it won't matter, because I have already caused a predisposition in Pharoah to discount and ignore them. "(3) But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, (4) Pharaoh will not listen to you; then I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring forth my hosts, my people the sons of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. (5) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth my hand upon Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them." You are also making a grave error in assuming that I am not fully familiar with, conversant in regard to, and cognizant of, many religious tracts; not just the several versions of the "Bible". With Christianity, I was once, as you are.....Now, I know that I can be happy without the drugs. God knows the future, God was aware of how Pharaoh was going to act and developed his plans based on that. If God had done this to Pharaoh capriciously, then it would be an entirely unique situation. But what we see throughout the old testament is God warning a people and then punishing them if they don't heed the warning. Jericho got one warning, Pharaoh got many. You are also making a grave error in assuming that I am not fully familiar with, conversant in regard to, and cognizant of, many religious tracts; not just the several versions of the "Bible". With Christianity, I was once, as you are.....Now, I know that I can be happy without the drugs. I made no such assumption, you requested scripture and I provided it. To no effect, I might add, because it didn't change your mind. Perhaps you simply wanted me to waste 30 minutes of my Saturday afternoon? My apologies....I took this as an inference that I had never read the pertinent scriptures: This is God predicting the future. If you read the scriptures, you will see that God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart until Pharaoh had been given many chances to repent. This is not "God" predicting the future, it's "God" engineering the future. As for wasting your time, it was your choice to respond; besides, a simple chapter and verse reference was all that I requested, not an ad hoc regurgitation of scripture. The reason that I asked in the first place, is that I knew that no reference existed that supported your interpretation. The language of Exodus is quite simple (even in the Hebrew), and needs no additional esoteric divination.
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And again understand something. God is a loving God.....he has given the human race chance after chance to turn from their wicked ways.....that is love......But because people think that they can do it their way and justify it away....well by golly george then they will also pay the price for that...... This kind of rhetoric assumes that the biblical God is real. But that’s the whole point Feral. There’s no reason why anyone should believe that God is as wicked as the Bible says. They prefer to believe that God is better than that picture. It’s this kind of ‘accusation’ that if people don’ t believe in the biblical God that they are somehow rejecting God is what is so insulting to people who prefer not to believe the biblical picture. Jennie made a perfect point in another thread,…. Abra, this kind of thing is getting really boring. FeralCatLady isn't demanding that you believe God to be real, she is correcting YES CORRECTING you and others on what you believe Christians believe. Every time you run out of arguments, you fall back on the "Not everyone believes in your God" arguement. YOU DON'T HAVE TO. FeralcatLady is simply making sure you KNOW what Christians believe. We care that the true beliefs of Christians is known. We aren't trying to force them on anyone, but we won't sit back while Christianity is maligned and not say anything. Only people who do not know how to love need religion to tell them the difference between right and wrong behavior. If you act with divine love you will always do the right thing. Christianity has no place for these natural loving people. Christianity assumes that everyone is inherently evil and can’t possibly do anything right without an instruction book. That’s the fallacy in that thinking. Just because people don’t wish to believe that the biblical picture of an angry vengeful jealous God has anything to do with the real God. Doesn’t mean that they are rejecting God. It simply means that they believe God to be much better than that demented picture. We are actually giving God a compliment by saying that we believe he is far better than the deity portrayed in the biblical myths. Nobody’s rejecting God here. They are rejecting a picture that they feel doesn’t do God justice. They believe that God is more loving than that. Abra...Are you one of these perfect loving people? Someone who agrees with the idea that people only deserve one warning and then they should be killed? Is that "perfect love"? God's love is patient and gives us a lifetime to repent. How is your "perfect love" better than God's love? You give one chance, while God gives as many as will fit into a lifetime. |
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This is not "God" predicting the future, it's "God" engineering the future. On what do you base this? When God told the Hebrews "In time you will worship idols", was that God engineering their fall into idolatry or was it God predicting future events? As for wasting your time, it was your choice to respond; besides, a simple chapter and verse reference was all that I requested, not an ad hoc regurgitation of scripture. The reason that I asked in the first place, is that I knew that no reference existed that supported your interpretation. The language of Exodus is quite simple (even in the Hebrew), and needs no additional esoteric divination. You are quite wrong. The Old Testament is one great series of God warning, punishing and forgiving repentant people. The Exodus is the start of this chain of events. God knew how Pharaoh would act, so he based his plans on this. God decided the number of chances he would give Pharaoh, after that, God "hardened Pharaoh's heart". Here's an article for you to read, if you are truely interested in this subject: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2259 |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 02/16/08 01:37 PM
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Why does it matter? Evil exists. I wish it didn't but it does for now all we can do is keep going and try to not do evil ourselves. We can try and convince others not to do evil too but we all know evil exists. How do you know that evil exists? What is evil to you? Can it be seen or touched or otherwise identified? Does Love exist? Can it be seen or touched or otherwise identified? What would you do to irradiate evil? How would you do it? Would you kill it? Would you destroy it? If so how? Where is it? How can it be destroyed? Do you destroy it's vessel as God commanded Joshua to do to the people of the land of Jericho? If sin is evil and if everyone is a sinner, then do you destroy everyone? You are all arguing about free will. Free will is the freedom to make bad or good choices. To irradiate evil you have to do away with free will. Then no body is free. We will all be in bondage and living under a tyrant... probably the Church, who will destroy you if you commit even one single act construed as evil. Be thankful that evil is allowed to exist. Jeannie |
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Edited by
creativesoul
on
Sat 02/16/08 02:04 PM
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Lordling made a most validating statement with this...
This is not "God" predicting the future, it's "God" engineering the future. This is a perfectly drawn conclusion... Allow me to extrapolate concerning this matter... If the biblical 'God' is omniscient. then Such a 'God' knows which choices will be made by any given agent, during any and every set of actual circumstance(s) that would come to pass as a result of choices that were and would be made by whomever throughout human history. All of which an omniscient 'God' did knowingly create by creation at all. EDIT: An omniscient 'God' would not waste time and effort with an attempt at personally altering one's choice. 'God' would have already known what that choice was going to be. |
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