No, I don’t believe that I’m right. I have no clue what’s going on Spider. I only take my best guesses, base on what I believe I know.

I’ve stated it many times, perhaps you never really caught it.

Ultimately I’m agnostic. It is my belief that all human beings are ultimately agnostic whether they admit it to themselves or not. I have to agree with Funches (bless his soul wherever he may be), that ultimately any absolute belief in any unseen deity is necessarily delusional whether a person will confess this to themselves or not.

When I say that I ‘believe’ in pantheism, mean that in a religious context assuming that everyone understand that it is faith-based.

What does it mean to be faith-based? It means that I would like it to be true, but I can’t know that it really is true.

That’s what it means to have faith. If I knew it was true beyond any shadow of a doubt then it would no longer be faith-based, I would then know that it is true and I would no longer have any need to merely have faith that it might be true.

Clearly we can also decide to believe, or not believe things for logical reasons to. You often seem to act like you can ‘prove’ the existence of your God, but clearly you haven’t been able to do that.

I’ve always said that while it may be impossible to prove the existence of a supreme being, it is not impossible to disprove a dogma that is self-inconsistence. Once things are written down as ‘gospel truth’ then if they reveal logical inconsistencies it can at least be shown that the to continue to believe in that dogma would illogical. I feel that I have shown that this must necessarily be the case with the Bible.

I know that you don’t like that, and may even claim that I’m ‘belittling’ your beliefs by saying that. But the thing you need to understand is that your belief WERE my beliefs at one time. So from my point of view all I’m doing is sharing with people why I gave up on a dogma after having followed it for many years.

I view the Bible as having ‘belonged’ to me just as much as it ‘belongs’ to you. You don’t hold any special corner on this human literature that has affected the lives of so many millions of people both in positive and very negative ways.

For you to act like I have no right to share my experience with that dogma after the profound negative affects that it has had on my own personal life is utterly absurd Spider. I have every right to speak out on how that god awful doctrine had a negative impact on my life.

It’s part of my life too whether you recognize that fact or not. You don’t own the Bible!

So you can continue to believe that you are absolutely right in what you know.

I don’t see anyone else claiming to be absolutely right in what they know (except possibly some other Christians). It is a pitfall of that religion. That religion was very carefully and meticulously designed over many ages by authoritarian to brainwash people into believing that it is absolute truth. The very first commandment begins with “Thou Shalt Have No Other God’s Before ME!”.

It’s an extreme brainwashing religion. Do anything to upset this God and you’re going to Hell! And don’t forgot to bring your babies into the church and have them baptized and cleansed of original sin because no one ecapes this religion! Not only must you believe that it’s the only true word of God, but you must proselytize this message to the whole world! And don’t worry that people will belittle you for it because you are doing the work of GOD!

I’m sorry Spider, I do feel like belittling this religion. But not to belittle your own personal beliefs. I want to belittle the RELIGION, not YOU!!! Because this religion is so full of crap I’m seriously peeved at it.

Not peeved at God mind you, because I don’t believe this religion has anything at all to do with God.

I’m not trying to belittle your beliefs, if anything I’m trying to save you from them!!! Although that’s seriously not my purpose either. I don’t want to tell you want to believe. But at the same time you are preaching something that I don’t want to hear either. It has already been too damaging in my life.

I’m at the extreme opposite end of the rainbow from you. You are totally in support of it as being the only true word of God, and I am clearly denouncing it as having absolutely nothing to do with God whatsoever.

This isn’t between you and me. It’s much bigger than that Spider. You make it individually personal. I don’t. To me it’s a humanitarian concern. I would like to see the religion wiped off the face of history for purely humanitarian reasons.

My bones to pick with the religion has absolutely nothing to do with you or any other currnent believers of it. My bone to pick with the religion goes way back,… not only has it negatively affected my own personal life, but it has also negatively affected many great scientific men (and women) whom I greatly admire. For me Christianity (along with it’s siblings Islam and Judaism) have all had a very negative impact on humanity. They caused more negativity and damage than any positive contributions that they might be credited for.

So my denunciation of Christianity really has absolutely nothing at all to do with you as a person. Any religion that has been as destructive as this religion can’t possibly be divine. What more ‘logic’ do I need?

So it’s not about ‘mocking your beliefs’, its about saving humanity from a destructive mythology.

By the way, I only just now read your emotional edit. I'm sorry that my views upset you. This isn't personal for me, but it's clearly personal for you. I'm sorry about that. But hopefully you'll have a better understanding after having read the above.

This was an excellent post Dragoness. Thank you for posting it.

And I'm in complete agreement with you. I feel there is more to be learned by realizing that the Bible was indeed written by men than to force a divine view of it. Because once the reader sincerely views the words as having been written by mortal men then can begin to see things that weren't possible to see before.

It really is like Toto pulling back the curtian on the Wizard of Oz, you begin to see things that you would have never seen if you keep your focus on the Wizard.

There is a LOT to be gained from looking 'backstage' in the Bible. But the only way that can be done is to realize that it was indeed written by mortal men who had agendas (sometimes good agendas, and sometimes bad ones).

Very good post Dragoness.

spider:

You have replied as such:



I humbly bow to what I have received of this post spider...

I felt your humility, my friend... I can only hope that mine, in return, is also felt...

My intent is still sometimes misguided by the worldly fingerprint, and I apologize to any and all whom I have offended, at times, by any intentionally careless words...

Much more often than not, my intent is not malicious is any way, as was the case this time also...

The consideration of what good could come from any action taken is a wonderfully self-less way to think...

If it is any consolation, you just earned some respect to be returned to you, from me...

Just always remember my friend, negative and positive are completely relative to one's experiences. A perfect reflection of this worldly fingerprint which is upon us all, at one time or another, incorruptably so while viewing the cause through the cause...

Your post is full of strawmen. I was going to write a long response, but what's the use? I'm arguing with people who love to offend and mischaracterize. I have never once said that you shouldn't be allowed to offend others, but I do suggest that there is a better way. I won't stoop to your level. I don't need to insult your beliefs. That's the main difference between you and me Abra, I believe what I say and you simply hope what you say is true. That's why you are riddled with doubt and can only silence the doubt by trying to hurt others. Meanness, rudeness, lies, hypocracy, they won't fill the place in your heart that you so desperately want filled and so adamantly deny exists.

My post wasn't intended as an argument.

I was simply trying to explain where I'm coming from and why my thoughts on Christianity have nothing at all to do with you personally.

Yet even in all of that you took it as a personal insult.

I guess no matter what I say you’ll take personal insult from it, so I’ll try not to converse with you anymore. We’ll both be happier for it.

Strawman. I have stated many times that God's existance cannot be proven.



Strawman. I don't like when you say "Your religion makes God look demonic" etc etc etc. I don't mind debating the Bible with anyone. I have done that a lot. But the direct insults against Christianity aren't necessary.



Strawman. I have never asked you to stop attacking the Bible. Your incessant insults to Christianity are what I have asked you to stop. I don't see any point in attacking the Bible, but you are free to do what you want.



Strawman. I don't care if you talk about your experiances with Christianity. I get bored by it, but I don't care if you do it.



Strawman. I have never claimed to own the Bible.



Incredible arrogance. You are saying: "I don't know if I'm right, but I know you are wrong"

Strawman means that you make up an argument and pretend to be responding to something someone else said or believes. You made many statements of what I believe or what you think I believe. Those are strawmen. It doesn't matter if you are trying to explain something to someone, you cannot make up beliefs and attribute them to another.

(2:11-12)
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

God will cause us to believe lies so that he can damn us to hell?

Do humans have free will?

Does God lie?

Does God want some people to go to hell?

In case your haven't noticed. Reverend Rabbit has been posting the fact that the Bible does indeed make God look demonic. That’s just a fact Spider. And this is just one of a myriad of reasons why I have rejected this doctrine as not possibly being from God. What kind of God would do the following?



You have the right to embrace this picture as being divine.

I have the right to denounce it as being demonic.

We’re on a level playing field Spider. You have no right to hide behind accusations of ‘personal insult’. That very act is an insult to those whom you claim are insulting you! They aren’t insulting you. They are sharing their beliefs on a doctrine no differently than you are. You just don’t like their beliefs is all.

There is a difference. I speak positively of my beliefs and I don't speak negatively of other's beliefs.

But let's just forget that, shall we?



Let me explain this. Not to you Abra or Rabbit, but to everyone who reads these forums.

BACKGROUND
Jesus proclaimed that there would be no sign to those without faith, other than his death and resurrection. God wants to be worshiped through faith, not reason.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 explained
This is talking about the coming of the anti-Christ. This is fortelling his coming in the name (place) of Satan. This scripture tells us that those who heard the gospel, but rejected it and instead accepted the anti-Christ as their god, will be prevented from realizing their mistake. Remember the background information I gave you. God won't give signs, he's not doing parlor tricks. If someone has rejected the gospel, they will be deluded into ignoring or misinterpreting the signs of the supernatural that will appear in the world during the end times. These are the people who will witness the two prophets and the angels in the sky calling humanity to repent and ignore them. So even if someone has memorized the Bible, they will continue to ignore the realized prophecies, because God is going to manifest his presence on earth not for those who heard and rejected the Gospel, but for those who haven't heard or didn't understand the Gospel. Don't be confused, this verse isn't saying that God is going to make people believe a lie, God will prevent these people from recognizing the signs of the end times. The people who will be confused will be people who knew the Gospel, but instead choose to worship the anti-christ. They will have already rejected God and God is going to make sure that they don't change their mind based on the signs he provides to the world to bolster the faith of Christians and to lead the lost (who have never heard or didn't understand the Gospel) to Jesus.

I know this isn't written well, but it's 2:00 AM and I'm still getting over the flu. I will answer any questions or requests for clarification.

in a sence they dont want to understand, like in highschool the kids are too stubborn to listen but only believe in what they want to. Seems with age this happens as well, i have learned though many peoples downfalls, that i will always be open to change, and not let anyone harden my heart with hate as such people on here seem to have. It is only a drug that can only be cure by putting down christianity because of somthing hurtful that happened in which they cannot forgive, but continue to take that drug and feel better until the addiction comes back and is used again, you know who, look at the number of posts, Christians have a purpose to spread the gospel, the others? Thier purpose is to get thier drug. Dont let the ones addicted to hate bother you, they have a problem, they lack the holy sprirt Spider

My only question here is that if you sincerely believe this then why are you always attempting to support scripture by using ‘reason’ and ‘logic’ to try to explain it?



This may seem ‘divine’ to you, but to me it is no less demonic, it’s still a deceptive God either way.



You don’t need to be a supreme being to understand that not believing in something is nowhere near the same thing as choosing to reject it and choosing to worship something else that also only exists within that same thing that you don’t believe in

That’s still a demonic God who would play such ‘guessing games’ with people’s souls. What kind of a God would expect people to guess if he’s real? And then punish them severely for having guessed wrong?

Guessing wrong would not be rejecting this God, nor would it be anywhere near the same as choosing to follow some mythological anti-Christ which only exists within the same myth!

How can someone who chooses not to believe in myth be accused of choosing to follow some character within that myth?

This explanation is no less demonic and sadistic. Such a game-playing deceitful God would be no less demonic.

By the way, I’m not posting this to argue with Spider,… I’m posting this as a public response to his view.

This is my view. I don’t care what Spider believes and I’m not attempting to convince him of anything.

Any God who plays hide-and-seek and guessing games, and then would condemn the people who guess wrong is sadistic IMHO. Period. That’s just plain ignorant.

And besides, there are other pictures of God that aren’t so demonic. The pantheistic picture of God has set things up so that you can’t possibly be condemned no matter what you do. The pantheistic picture of God is truly unconditional love. .

Pure Unconditional Love

You can’t beat that picture of a God. If God is supposed to be perfect than clearly Pantheism must be the correct picture of God because the pantheistic picture of God is perfect.

A God that condemns people because they failed to play hide-and-seek and guessing games with him is far from perfect. IMHO.

(This has been a public service announcement)

By the way, this isn’t the first time the biblical God controlled the actions of others. He also hardened the heart of the Pharaoh of Egypt when he sent Moses to free the slaves. And then after he hardened the Pharaoh’s heart he made terrible things happen to the people of Egypt too. Quite a game-playing God.

Again, these are just my views on this doctrine. Not meant to belittle it, or mock it, but simply to point out that it’s not as divine as people claim. That of course, ultimately depends on your own personal opinion of what you accept as ‘divine’.

then we have people who try to out-think GOD, we in turn say that they think of themselves as God.

Excuse me Sir, but that is a direct comment about people and not doctrines.

You say that people don’t want to understand. I understand perfectly. The biblical picture of God is playing guessing games and punishing those who guess wrong.

That’s what there is to understand.

Why should I want to believe in a God who plays such childish games.

I’ll can tell you this right now Sir. My choice to not believe in an unsubstantiated Bible is not a choice to worship or follow some anti-Christ from that same mythology that I’ve already rejected as being untrue.

Surely you don’t think an all-wise supreme being wouldn’t be wise enough to know this.

Clearly the story is flawed. Any God who judges people for guessing wrong and refuses to give them and reason to believe, and gives them a myriad of reasons to not believe would indeed be a sadist.

Guessing wrong could not possibly be judged as choosing to reject an unseen God.

That’s nothing short of utterly absurd. It makes no sense at all.

It's not a matter of not wanting to understand the picture. It's a matter of not having any good reason to believe it And having a myriad of reasons for not believing it.

If the biblical God wanted people to guess he should have made the story more believable.

Try out-thinking the authors of mythology once.

again my point stands.

Purpose Drivin.......

All you need to do is ask yourself the following,…

What does God want?

Does God want people to obey his laws and worship him?

Or does he want to play stupid guessing games?

Which is it?

If you think for one second that I would reject God you are seriously mistaken.

On the other hand since I’m in a position of having to guess which door God is behind, why should I choose the picture of an ugly demented God?

Shouldn’t I choose a picture of a Perfect God?

If I choose the picture of the ugly demented God, then I’m saying that I think God must be ugly and demented.

On the other hand, if I choose the picture of the Perfect God, then I’m saying that I think God is perfect.

When God comes and asks you which picture you guessed was his, and I hold up a picture of a perfect God, shouldn’t he be pleased that I thought that was HIS PICTURE?

He would condemn me for that?

If that is the way your God is then I guess I’ll be condemned to hell then. But what would be the difference? You guys would then just have to go and serve under that demon for eternity anyway.

It’s a lose-lose situation.

And your purpose for 3417 posts which seem to mostly consist of religious posts, are to do what? Satisfy what? I have already answered my own questions, have you?

The basic flaw is simple.

The biblical picture is claiming that to guess wrong would be the same as choosing the anti-Christ.

Clearly that’s a falsehood.

Yes again why do you post if it so simple =)

I believe in the Big Bang, I just Think God pushed the Button

But seriously, when God created us, gave us free will, with free will comes making choices, and obviously Evil Exists, but God didn't create it as a punishment. He doesn't want to force us to have a relationship with him, it's making the choice to have that to search him out that God wants