lest we forget....even the most concrete of scientific thinkers and Carl Sagans of the world found... for a moment...
a pause for possibility....wherein most nations would call it hope.

I’m not sure what people are ‘hoping’ for?

I’m a firm believer in ‘god’.

I put that in both lowercase and quotes, because as soon as we start to define god or think of god as a separate entity I think we lose sight of what ‘god’ really is.

I personally believe that all religions begin pretty much with the same thesis, but then they are quick to veer off into the tainted world of man’s imagination.

Take Christianity for example.

It begins with a God that gives commandments. And what are these commandments?

Well one of them clearly states:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”

Yet look at Christianity! They worship a cross, and a man hanging on a cross. They carry this graven image around with them and worship it. They even worship their holy book. They have many graven images.

How did they get so far off track?

In exodus the Bible says:

“And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.”

How many churches were not build of hewn stone or have steps leading up to the altar where the very book sits on a pedestal commanding that men do not do this very thing?

How did they get so far off track?

God is nature. To worship anything other than nature is to pollute God.

But we are also nature.

Why does God need to be a separate being? Why can’t we all be part of God?

This makes much more sense to me. If we believe that we are something other than God then we must be Gods in our own right!

I believe that all is god. The universe is god, and we are the universe perceiving itself. God gave us the gift of life, and we give god the gift of living it. God experiences life through each and every one of us. All is one. There is no division. The idea that some will go to heaven and some will go to hell is a nightmare created by men who wanted to control the masses via fear and shame.

We are all a part of god and no part of god is going to hell. There is no such place.

To me, it’s not a question of whether god exists. The real question is whether a person believes they can put god in a box (or a book). When we restrain god by defining what god must be like we pollute god.

God is everything and beyond. There are no restrictions to god. God cannot be confined in a box (or a book).

Men write books.

God writes men.

God wrote the universe.

What better Bible does one need?

“The Universe”, - Hot off the presses of the Big Bang!

////You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”

Yet look at Christianity! They worship a cross, and a man hanging on a cross. They carry this graven image around with them and worship it. They even worship their holy book. They have many graven images.

How did they get so far off track?

In exodus the Bible says:

“And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.”

How many churches were not build of hewn stone or have steps leading up to the altar where the very book sits on a pedestal commanding that men do not do this very thing?

How did they get so far off track?
///////


They you mean "Man" correct. Well i ask how did we get as far off as making "Atheist" a religion? This was recently when i found out what that actually ment? How did we get that far. That requires alot of proof would you think to say "theres no God"? But then again i look and realize that "man" are who they are, and we will eventually be the destruction of our own race, yet we have the ability to think for ourselves huh?

Some do.

Some don't.

Why does everyone always expect 'perfection'?

If all men were created equal you'd think we'd all be able to think for ourselves. I guess we're not all created equal.

Only 1% of the world's population is involved in violent crimes. Far less than 10% are involved in petty crimes, pure accidents, and war (most of which are decent men just trying to honor their country). That leaves 90% of the people on earth as being pretty darn nice people.

Personally I think that's a pretty good percentage.

Consider this, 33% of angels fell from the grace of heaven!

Makes earth sound like the superior place to be huh?

Maybe mankind is better able to think for himself than you realize.

~~~

Oh while I'm at statistics, let me add that there isn't any significant differences in crimes, accidents, wars, and even divorce rates between religious people and non-religious people.

Kind of blows any association between religion and morals out of the water doesn’t it?

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." - Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780;)

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." - Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776.)

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

"That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience." - Patrick Henry (Virginia Bill of Rights, June 12, 1776.)

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you. -- George Carlin

^^^
Joe-ish

Man




Since the enigma is within a certain collection of writings, I will quote that collection of writings.

We are bought, therefore we have been paid with reciprocation

1 Corinthians 6:20.

For ye are bought with a price : therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 7:23.

Ye are bought with a price ; be not ye the servants of men.

verse 24 for grins :

Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.



II Peter 2 : 1.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways ; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3. And through covetousness shall with feigned words make merchandise of you : whose judgement now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.




Thanksgiving and gratitude to God , directly , are restored to the free exercise thereof in all acknowledgements. That would logically and reasonably be acceptable in that Christ is made the Judge and forgives whom he will as he will and that is not up to us but rather left up to him. Such an acknowledgement of him is not a hardship.

Dragoness - how powerful the words you have provided. Those words, quotes, are but a minute fraction of all the words that can only bear the proof that the foundations of this U.S., set forth within the constitution, were not indiciative of supporting any particualar religion or even any particular deity.

An open mind, having done much research into history including the hand written documents that remain, can only come to this conclusion. There is no room for the secular support of any single faith in any government. This was the NEW philosophy by which the constitution was drafted. This is what made our country different from any other. Exclude 'faith' and 'faith based doctrine' from the federal laws, while providing the protection, under that same law, to each citizen to choose and exercise according to their own beliefs.

THANK-YOU for such a wonderful addition to this post you have provided.

As I read your post, I realized that there will be no answers that will satisfy you. You have set up your own criteria for how the answers must conform. So, it is pointless for you. But, I'll answer for the forum's sake.



This is often also true for everyone who commits horrible crimes. They are above the Bible. You have to define your commandments for anyone to be able to judge.

[quote
However, I don’t claim to abide by them as a saint. Having moral values, and living up to them are two entirely different things. But at least I have the value system in place. If I stray from it I pay, and usually that payment is deliver in this life either through actual physical retribution brought about by my complacently, or via emotional retribution, even if that only amounts to the fact that I have remorse that I have failed to honor my own values.
{/quote]

Think this one through. If life gives you a kickback for breaking your code, then that means that your code is in some way in harmony with the creator's code. God's law is there to help us not suffer the kickbacks from life.

Further, if you feel remorse, it is because of the fact that God made a conscience in each of us.



This is quote is bunk! It comes from a man who did not live in the ghetto. He lived among highly educated people, the top rung of society. He had no idea of real life on the street.

For example. Should our morals come from sympathy? What about those who don't feel sympathetic? What about the guy who just just killed Christians in Colorado. He had hate not sympathy. How can a person feel sympathy, if they are taught not to feel it, like the hardened ....I can't think of the name now, Indians who showed no pain.

Sociopaths don't feel it and can't make the right judgment. If we don't teach moral values, people will become sociopaths. You were raised in a wonderful environment, and your values are like those you were taught. You don't think you should murder, steal or lie. Thousands believe that they should. We cannot rely on our own moral compass. It will deceive us and without an external moral code, we will always choose to do what is in our best interests. There must be a code that is taught people of right and wrong before they can understand sympathy

How about education? Don't you understand that you can educate the conscience to the point that it thinks it is good to do evil? Those who built the troughs to drain the blood from the holocaust victims believed they were doing the best thing for the state and that was good. But, it was evil. Education can teach people to do wrong. This is what Hitler did with it in training the youth in Germany. There must be a code that stands higher than our own by which we can judge good and evil.

What about social ties and needs? There you go, the social ties in Nazi Germany caused many to murder others. It was socially acceptable. Further, it came from their needs. They were not thinking of the needs of the Jews, just the needs of themselves. They wanted to get ahead, so instead of opposing societies values, they joined for their own benefit.

To believe Einsteins Quote is childish, foolish, and not thought out. You can use it to think that you are superior, and we don't need the morals of the Bible. It is bunk, silly immature, selfish thinking.



This makes my point. Your values were programed into you growing up. They are those in the Bible already. If you did not have that exposure, you might have an altogether different set of values. Like for instance, if you grew up in Harlem you might have a values system like this: do it to them before they do it to you.



In California their code of law is 1200 pages long. God's commandments are the basic umbrella for a society. God's law is love. It is further broken down into two categories. Love toward God and love toward man. These two are further broken down into 10 categories, four of which speak of how to love God, and six (the number of man) that show us how to love man.

Thus the single commandment that children respect and honor their parents is for the sake of the society, not the individual. When children respect parents, then the family is strong, and the society is strong. Hence, Paul writes:

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

But, remember the ten commandments are only an umbrella, under which all the rest of God's law of love hangs. Thus, all the law regarding parents and children fall under this category of God's law. Doesn't it stand to reason, that if the family is important, that parents are to love and nurture their children?

If they don't, they do injury to their kids, and break the commandment about of the spirit of murder. If they don't nurture their children, they steal from them what they need. If they don't love their kids, they live a lie. If they don't give what their children need, it is because they are selfish, and are coveting their time and love. Because of this, they dishonor their physical parent, and their spiritual parent God.

You get the point, you break one, you break them all. Thus in the very next verse, Paul expands on the fifth commandment. He says:

Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

You don't understand the Bible. You should not teach it.



The idea of kids respecting their parents is not for population control. We may need that now, they did not need it then. What in the world are you thinking? Are you just grabbing at straws to find something wrong with the commandments. This is beneath you.



Good point, so why bring it up? I think I do know why. Because the issue really is that you have resentment inside. You have anger, and you are just striking out. I am going to say that your parents cared more about their religion than they did you. This pissed you off. I understand that, but it is not God's fault. It is the fact that the church is not God's church, and men run it and make the church out to be most important. You understand that they were not following God's law. They followed the church and the men who ran it.



I think you are biased. This one single commandment is for the sake of the society in general. To think that God did care about the children is ridiculous. The truth is that it was Jesus who gave the ten commandments. No one has ever seen or heard the father. It was him--Christ, and yet, he has the kids crawling all over him. It was the adults who tried to shoo them away, and He said no. This what the kingdom is like. It is not filled with critics, and self righteous judges of others.

God is a family.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

He is a father, and Christ is His son. Do you think that the Father does not show love to Christ and He simply obeyed Him for fear? You are so far off.

You really don't know the Bible. You are reacting to something inside you that caused resentment toward religion. It causes you to completely miss the boat on this stuff. In modern day language. you set things up in your mind as a straw man. Then you can attack the straw man. Easy to do, but you can't confront the truth. You can dismiss it, and make up your own arguments to satisfy keeping your anger, but it is made up in your mind, it is not real.



Well, there you go again. You are smarter than the Bible. But, let me ask you a question. What was Jesus teaching? You don't even know. There are lots of things He taught that are simply common sense, but those things usually arose because the people were not doing it. They were doing the opposite. So, they put on a show of being righteous, but did not keep God's commandments. They did not have common sense, and so Christ laid it out for them.

However, when you make this statement you miss is the entire message of Jesus Christ. You never even saw it. But, you will never find His message anywhere else in the world. His gospel was not about himself. He preached a gospel of the coming kingdom of God in which He would rule this world, and all of its nations by His law. He gave prophecies of exactly what would happen. There would come people preaching in His name, they would deceive others--like your Methodist friends. There would be wars, famines, disease, then it would culminate in the great tribulation, heavenly signs, 7 trumpet plagues, and a resurrection from the dead of all the faithful down through the ages.

This is not preached by anyone else. Where were you when your read the Bible?



This is hilarious. You don't know so much about the bible. This could only be true because you were never listening. In your head, the thoughts were rolling around about how smart you are. Of course you could not get anything from the Bible.

You are. You are so smart that you can mock the Bible, but sound so foolish to anyone who does know it. If you are so smart, and the bible doesn't tell you anything you don't know, then tell me, who are the 144,000? Tell me how to count Pentecost. Tell us what the Holy days mean. Tell us what the purpose of life is and what mankind's destiny is. Christ reveals all this in the new testament, and you read over it, and yet you have no clue. You ought to start all over my friend.




You tell me that you have read the bible and you think that it says reincarnated? The Bible speaks of resurrections, not reincarnations. The Bible shows that all the generations will be raised and they will be judged according to how they live once they know the truth. Christ said that those in the first resurrection at His return will rule with Him. The rest of the dead will be raised 1000 years later:

rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

God has blinded Israel for now, but will raise them to a physical resurrection at the end of the thousand years: Ezek 37 entire chapter. God will eventually, in the future, save all Israel:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The generations of old will be alive with the generations in Christ's time

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.



It was necessary because it is the law. You can't understand this because you don't know God and you don't know what God is doing. He is creating a kingdom of sons and daughters--those who will be royalty and live the way that God lives.

The Almighty is creating beings who will be greater than angels. They will have enormous power. Once resurrected, they will be like Jesus Christ is now. I John 3:2.

God is not going to have billions of people living in His kingdom who are criminals, law breakers, who have power beyond human comprehension.

Thus, His law states that breaking His commandments results in death. In this way, those who do not want to abide by His laws, who think that they know better than Him, can simply be put out of their misery--exist no more.

However, that would mean we all die, therefore, there must be a means to save those who want to live God's way, but might because of being human err. Thus there was to be a substitutionary sacrifice for those individuals.

There is only one life that is worth all the combined lives of humanity. That is the life the the creator. That creator is Jesus Christ.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

By virtue of being our creator, His life is worth all of ours, and His sacrifice can cover ours. Further, this means of atonement, like so many aspect of God's plan is multifaceted. For example, those who accept that sacrifice will alway feel a great debt of gratitude for it, and by it our creator showed how much He loves us, and How far He is willing to go to save us. He who will ultimately judge us learned what it like to be human, and thus, He is a faithful high priest and judge for us.



The debt was to the law.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This was not the ten commandments that Christ took away. If you look up the words, it is the note of debt.

The debt was owed to the law. The law requires it. If you don't respect God's law, then how can you understand. Christ could have just written it off, forgiven everyone. He didn't.
And He didn't for a reason, few can understand.

God would rather die than break the law. As Paul writes:

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

God Himself is not above the law. Neither were the kings of Israel. Without the law, there is chaos. Therefore, God does exactly what He says. He tells us to swear to our own hurt. To fulfill what we say, even if it hurts us. If we live by the law, we can live forever. If we don't live by His law, we will become like Satan the devil. He thought he knew better than God, and it leads to rebellion and destruction.

We cannot in any society live without laws. God's laws are the laws of the Kingdom of God, and those who will live in that Kingdom will keep those laws.



All of which shows to me that you are not looking for answers, but already think you have them, and not only that, your answers are superior to God's.



There you have it again. God is nonsensical, but you make sense at least in your mind.

The devil knew about the sacrifice of Christ and the analogy He would make with an innocent lamb. Do you not think the devil who has led us to enthusiastically celebrate the saturnalia and Ishtar would not have led these others to have similar sacrifices and similar gods? Of course he did. He is the author of confusion. He certainly has you confused by all this.

The lamb as a substitutionary sacrifice as a learning tool for mankind. God does not need the lambs, oxen, goats, or doves. These Levitical sacrifices were put in place after the people sinned. It was not His original intention.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

These were added as a schoolmaster to teach a vital lesson. That lesson is this.

There is a terrible cost for sin.

We take it lightly today. But when you see that it leads to a bloody death, you might think twice.



God's law is absolutely vital to the stability of His Kingdom, it cannot be broken with impunity. Thus the law states that if we sin, we will die. This was made clear to Adam and Eve, and the theme runs throughout the bible.

Look at the words you use. "Nothing more than disobeying God."

You act like God's law is chump change. It is unimportant. I say to you today that there is nothing more important to God and there should be nothing more important to you.

If Christ did not die for us and pay the debt to the law, then we could never trust God ever again. If He changed every time something did not go His way, then He would not be any different than us. He could not be trusted, and we would not want to live with a being that is as powerful as He is and who changes the rules at every whim.

As smart as you are, I don't understand why you don't get it. Oh yeah, I forgot, you really don't want to get it. It is a choice you made long ago.



You have not heard what I have said, you can't answer the questions I posed to you. Your talk is filled with arrogance and braggadocio. You can't imagine how silly it all looks to the great God.

Art

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — Authorities believe the man who killed four people at a church and missionary training center posted an anti-Christian diatribe online that closely repeated a rant by one of the Columbine killers, a newspaper reported Tuesday.

Matthew Murray, who was kicked out of a missionary training center where the first shooting occurred, is believed to have posted the message on a Web site for people who have left evangelical religious groups. His most recent post was Sunday morning in the hours between his attacks in Arvada and Colorado Springs, according to KUSA-TV in Denver, which first reported on the writings.

"You Christians brought this on yourselves," Murray wrote, according to the station, which did not identify the site. "All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."

Art

Yes, there are fewer atheists, but they are more vocal, and most of the media tends to be on that side. Thus, they have a greater voice today.



Yes, they had diverse beliefs in the God of the Bible, but they mostly believed in God. They outlawed any religion being able to influence government or take it over.



I can't disagree with you more. I am not saying to teach creation, but rather to show both sides. You are saying that we should not show both sides because we want young people to learn to be critical thinkers? It is crazy. Evolution has been shown to only be a theory. Further, it has evolved itself. Now it is thought that because there are no links that it was punctuated gradualism. Eons went by with no evolution, then it was wiped away and something new and improved existed. It is just a theory.

The theory of creation shows that there was a beginning, a big bang. It offers an explanation of why there is no life on other planets. It offers understanding of why species can't interchange with others. Why we can't create life.

For example, scientists sometimes must ignore the clear obvious truth to support their theory. They say that given the right environment for life, all the elements necessary for life, and the conditions are just right, life will spontaneously generate. However, what great grandma Johnston lay on her bed, she had all the elements for life. There were all the conditions for life, and the right environment, but she does not spontaneously generate into life. It goes just the opposite. She dies.

Life must come from other life. Further, the universe operates according to strict laws that we cannot break. There is a law giver.

The universe is winding down. Entropy is at work. Something acted on the universe to give it energy. Eventually everything in the universe will flat line. There must be a creator to wind things up.

To me these are decent arguments to consider for young people. They are not anti science, they are scientific.

In fact the scientist say that the complexity of the world is too vast to have come together by accident. They admit this. So why not teach the full truth? Why not be open? To me both sides are prejudiced.



You have have a balanced view. It even seems tender.

I don't agree with your conclusion. I see the movement as anti God, and growing.

Read the post from the guy who shot the people in Colorado. He hates all Christians. And of course it is because he was rejected, but none the less, he is not alone. This was like columbine. There is a growing animosity for Christianity and the God of the Bible in the music and minds and hearts of many young people.

I am watching it grow.

Art
Art

Yes, we got off track regarding what the Bible says because we thought we knew better than God. We thought we could interpret what He said to suit ourselves. He said:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Then, Christianity by interpreting God's Word and not living it, has offended people so much, that they are angry, and want to dump it and choose for themselves.

But choosing for ourselves was the first mistake of mankind in the Garden. Choosing for ourselves is why true Christianity has never been tried by most people. Choosing for ourselves has already, and will result in the destruction of the human race.

Art

Angels were on the earth and rose to attack God in heaven. They were cast back down, and those evil angels are on this earth today. In part that is why the nations war and tear at each other over the land like it was a bone or something.



I am no fan of organized religion per se, but I am not certain that this is true. I think the Mormon community does not fit this mold. Further, there would be some who follow their religion more than others. I don't think it is valid to say something like this across the board.

Art

Good work, you have finally proved that Christians are humans. However, you have yet to prove that pantheists are humans.

Hey Skot,

I believe that Carlin is correct in his evaluation, but none of that stuff is in the Bible. None of it. Religion did this. But where is America going when it comes to Christianity is the thread. Could you address that?

Art

I enjoyed that article. I thought it was well written. It seems the pendulum has to swing in an extreme opposite direction at times before society is willing to let loose of old rigid thought patterns. Its not necessarily bad. Maybe chaotic and uncomfortable for a while but growth is never bad. It'll come back to center eventually with a more expanded view.

I’m sorry Art but you are so NOT listening to what I am saying.

You seem to think that I made up my own morals and that this set of morals is higher than what’s taught in the Bible. That is NOT what I’m saying at all.

I’m saying that my morals include everything that is taught in the Bible and MUCH MORE!

So you’re responding here to something that I never even intended to convey.

You simply misunderstand what I’m saying.



So you’re saying that religion is class-dependent?

I can’t understand your God because I didn’t come from the ghetto????

Well who’s FAULT was it that I wasn’t BORN in a ghetto then????

Certainly not mine!



So you’re somehow implying that this sick demented man wouldn’t have gone bannas had he believed in Christianity? I don’t know anything about the man, for I know he was a radical fanatical ‘Christian’ in his own mind.

All you’re saying here is that anyone can be a jerk.

EXCUSE ME!!!! But what about all those perverted priests who molested little girls and boys!!!

Tell me that religion with change who people are and I’ll hurt my sides laughing. That’s a completely joke.

What are you trying to say Art???

I can point to many atheists who have lived perfectly positive, constructive, and compassionate lives, even helping their fellow man whenever they can. And I can point to people who claim to be Christians who will stab you in the back and sue you for everything you have in the blink of an eye just because they didn’t like they way you looked at them!

People are people. You seem to be suggesting that if everyone was the “perfect” Christian the world would be perfect. Well no kidding!!! If everyone was the “perfect” atheist the world would be perfect too!!!

There are good and bad people in all walks of life. Religion apparently has very little to do with that.



Of you can! And even religions have done this in the name of “Christianity”. Just look at Jim Jones, and David Koresh, and the Inquisition, and the Witch hunts. Organized religion can be responsible for just as much evil as anything other organization. Even Hitler believed he was doing the “Christian” thing.



Well, like Einstein said, if the only thing that keeps you from being a bad person is the fear of punishment or the promise of reward you’re in a poor way indeed Art.

I’m a nice guy all the time, whether any god exists or not. If everyone were like me there would be no crime in this world at all because I don’t commit crimes. I never have. About the worst thing I’ve every been guilty of is slightly speeding on rare occasions, and I used to smoke marijuana years ago, but even when I did that I always did it at home, or in the privacy of a friend’s house. But the worst thing that could have come from my marijuana use would have been the demise of my own health.

However, from the point of view of public or violent crimes, forget Art. If everyone were like me there’d be no need for locks and keys. No one would ever walk away with anything that they didn’t rightfully belong to them. The words rape, murder, and abuse would have never been invented.

If Christ died on the cross to pay for my sins, he’s due a rebate!

If everyone were like me there would have been no need to send any savior.

Perhaps this is why the story makes no sense to me personally. It simply doesn’t fit in with my life’s experience.

How about you Art? If there was no such thing as the Bible and the 10 commandments would you be out raping, murdering, and pillaging? Is your belief in a God the only thing that tames your desire to be an evil demon????

If your answer yes, please send me your address and I’ll buy you a brand spanking new Bible!!!!

If your answer is no, then what is your argument again????



This is only true if you assume decent parents. But what if the parents are jerks????



Alright, so you digging through the Bible now adding more to the tale. But once we start that we enter into a whole other realm. Paul was very male chauvinistic too!



I wasn’t talking about population control. I don’t where you got that.

I was talking about controlling the ‘behavior’ of the masses. Scare the younger people into not questioning the adults and you’re in for smooth sailing. This is something that men would love to see in their society.

All I was saying is that if a genuine Supreme Being had actually made these laws it wouldn’t have been a top-down dogmatic dictatorship. Instead God would have focused on the adults properly raising their children. I know you cover that with Paul, but that’s way later and did not come from directly from God’s commandments.

Also, if God’s favorite number is 7 why are their 10 commandments. This smells to me like man had his fingers in the mix!



You are so totally far off the wall with this unwarranted speculation that it isn’t even funny. I never met a more loving woman in my entire life than my very own mother. She was a saint, and I’m not just saying that because she was my mother. My father died when I was 9. I lived with my mother, (or she with me) basically my entire life. You can read into that whatever you want, but the reason was not because I was dependent on her, quite the contrary, she depended on me.

I’ve always been family-oriented and I believe that all families should live together. I cared for my mother in my home until she died at the age of 90. In the last 6 years of her life I had to quit my job to take care of her full-time because I refused to put her in a nursing home.

There was no lack of parental love in my life. You have no clue who you are even talking with.



You can believe this if you want, but it has no truth in it whatsoever.



I know precisely what the Bible claims that Jesus taught. I also know that there is not one word in the Bible that was actually written by the man named Jesus. Everything that is in the Bible is hearsay. And we can’t even be sure of the authenticity of the authors who have claimed this knowledge.



Yes he did (so the authors claim)

And those SAME authors also claim that Jesus said that this would all come to pass within THEIR generation.

Well, this is 2000 years later and it didn’t happen. So what should we do now – keep waiting????



Finally, you give the answer to the question. This answer is not new to me. I fully understand this answer and it like you say, it’s totally meaningless to me.

A God that would be like this description would be more frail and troublesome than humanity itself.

You can believe that this narrow-minded picture of an egotistical jealous Godhead is the nature of the creator of this universe if you like.

More power to!

But don’t preach this ignorant mythology to me because as far as I’m concerned this whole picture is an insult to the creator of this universe.

Nothing you have said here holds any water.

You’re claim to need the Bible for moral values only suggests that you wouldn’t be able to behave yourself if you didn’t have religion.

If that’s true then by all means KEEP BELIEVING!!!

I don’t need to believe in any God to be a nice person.

Why is that Art?

Can you explain that one????

Where does it say that?

On a side note, did you know that repeating a false claim doesn't make it true?

Me too Bliss, but here is the actual question. Where will the change take us? What do you think?

What would you like to see for the change? What don't you want to see for the change?

Art