No i don't think if god made faulty creations he wouldn't be a dictator or a slave, we'd be all we could ever be. Just because we were made perfect wouldn't mean that'd we'd be in that state.

"Yes this is very closed minded of the individuals, another problem with me and Catholics. I dont believe in denominations, they are man created, HOW WE THINK it should be."

I agree it should be how we think, the problem i have is when they try and tell you how you should think. About movies, music, books, science and medicine. The worst part of it is, they succeed.

See i don't believe in god, fine that isn't a problem for me, the problem is organized religion and how it rapes people's minds.

I promote growth hormones as well, but if it means saving or helping people's lives, stem cell is the way to go.

Hey i'm glad you fought your way through some hard times and made it through okay.

Religion is a life long journey, okay. But isn't the point of a journey to get to where you need to go? Why would you start a journey and not know the destination, or even if it exists?

"IF you bless in expectations to be given, this is invaild and is false in Gods eyes." Sorry man but i gotta say foul ball. You cannot know what is right or wrong in god's eyes. Example, god has killed many people 40 days of rain, fire, the 10th plague etc etc, yet he tells us killing is wrong. If such contradictions exist, where does that put god in your eyes?

Yes i agree every animal has different mindsets (apes and other monkeys can and do laugh and find thing funny). The senses get stronger if one is lost because that energy is distrubuted to the other areas of the body as a means for survival. I'd disagree and say that without senses you're 100% relying on instincts, which in the case we're using isn't about faith whatsoever.

Just so you know i'm not trying to convince you that there isn't a god, what i'm trying to do is hopefully get you to think outside the box. Whether that's my ego talking or not i'm not sure. It's always great to have discussions like this because without a opposition people are completely blinded.

"To a new world of gods and monsters" -- Frankestein (1931)

Did you ever see that movie? Just think, there might be a day when that is real... i wonder where religion will be then?

// Religion is a life long journey, okay. But isn't the point of a journey to get to where you need to go? Why would you start a journey and not know the destination, or even if it exists? //

Well im getting to where i need to go, but im following my spirit to get there. Keep in mind faith is required. I have never been steared in the wrong direction i can say this for sure. Sure you can do it without God im sure its possible however to achieve such happiness i achieved that one day, is proof within my self that God does exists. God can be proven but it isnt on a National Scale, in my opinion can only be proven with a open-mind and a willingness to find him. If you want to find your proof in God search i guarantee you will find him. But he wont be in the Earth.

//
Sorry man but i gotta say foul ball. You cannot know what is right or wrong in god's eyes. Example, god has killed many people 40 days of rain, fire, the 10th plague etc etc, yet he tells us killing is wrong. If such contradictions exist, where does that put god in your eyes?
//
Well Hold on, i never said i know whats right or wrong in Gods eye cause i do know it is based on the individual. What im saying is what the intentions of the "man" commiting such an act is. Blessing come to people with pure hearts and act not in favor of somthing in return. The impure i cannot say would be doing it for the right reasons.

//Example, god has killed many people 40 days of rain, fire, the 10th plague etc etc, yet he tells us killing is wrong. If such contradictions exist, where does that put god in your eyes?
//

This is a misconeption, 1, Killing is not murdering, God commandment is thou shall not murder. The intentions determine the difference of what murder is, thank the judicial system for throwing that one around. We as humans never know 100% the intentions of someone committing such an act.

If someone runs out in front of you while your driving- you killed someone
If you run someone over on purpose- you murdered them.

2) God gave in most of these situations people fair warning of what is going to happen to them, yet they spit in his face, Can you blame someone for giving them such a warning and people not listening to them?

//Yes i agree every animal has different mindsets (apes and other monkeys can and do laugh and find thing funny). The senses get stronger if one is lost because that energy is distrubuted to the other areas of the body as a means for survival. I'd disagree and say that without senses you're 100% relying on instincts, which in the case we're using isn't about faith whatsoever.
//

In my perspective animals dont quite match up to us, Evolition in a sence by creating "man" if this is true kinda went back-wards in doing so. Think about the purpose of evolution- growth. Animals do not indulge in material possessions, care about how they look before they go out of the house, drink excessivly, eat alot of plants containing THC =), or commit mas murders upon their own species. This is a flaw in man but it would seem back-wards for evolution to creat such emotions within ourselves.


Yes i appreciate your thoughts in your posts, it is good to have a healthly debate without trying to prove another wrong.


Hmm If man created such Bible.

------
Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking.
It is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails.
I Corinthians 13:4-8
---------

I could never give man for creating such a passage, this is somthing else that i notice in only the bible. I dont see people in the bible trying to give them selves credit for what they wrote which is common in alot of other religions.

But even in a worldy sence, i believe this describes "TRUE love" rather well in all honesty does love fail? If love does fail was it love. I find alot of interest in such a passage

-----


Religion in the end will come to many people denying their faith, mark of the beast and such there will come a time to put your faith to the test i believe, this most likely will be government immposed and i think someday it will be possible, yet this be close to when we destory ourselves.

since only a psychotic sociaopathic serial killer can ever follow all the rules and laws handed down by God..Christianity is moving into the realm of "New Age" in which you can dump the religion but keep the God

Here lies the two sides of Funches. The first statement, from the angry, turned off cynic that really makes no sense.

He picked this up from others, however. Millions believe they cannot keep God's law. They make it seem like it is impossible to obey God, then their conclusion is--why try? Consider how hard it is to keep God's law:

Do we have to have another God before Him?
Do we have to worship using idols
Do we have to take His name in vain
How hard is it to keep the Sabbath--free vacation
Do we have to dishonor our parents?
Do we have to murder?
Do we have to commit adultery?
Do we have to steal?
Do we have to be false witnesses
Do we have to desire what wrong for us to take?

If you think about it, these are practical and not particularly demanding to keep.

To me the other side of Funches is brilliant. In one statement I believe he has said exactly where Christianity is headed. It is becoming new age. God is how the individual perceives Him not the way He states that He is. The rules we follow are the rules we set for ourselves according to how we feel, and not according to what God says.


Art

art....Do we have to have another God before Him?
funches ...apparently since christian now worhship Jesus as God

art...Do we have to worship using idols
funches....that's how it's done praying to cross or one that jesus is nailed to

art...Do we have to take His name in vain
funches...everytime someone prays to Jesus and not God

art...How hard is it to keep the Sabbath--free vacation
funches...just say three hail marys

art....Do we have to dishonor our parents?
funches....if you do then it's God's law that you must be put to death ..(now do you understand what I meant by having to be a psychopathic serial killer in order to follow all the laws and rule set forth by God)

art...Do we have to murder?
funches...to murder is the only way you can eat...life feeds on the death and murder

art.....Do we have to commit adultery?
funches...maybe fornication..

art.....Do we have to steal?
funches..if you want and need something then to obtain it you must steal in some shape form or fashion

art...Do we have to be false witnesses
funches....I get assume falsely in this forum all the time

art....Do we have to desire what wrong for us to take?
funches...take is the same as need and greed ...that all are "want"

art...If you think about it, these are practical and not particularly demanding to keep.

funches...apparently they are

But, didn't I give evidence why that statement was true? Where is the evidence wrong?



No of course not. Once a person is converted to Christianity, they receive the spirit of God. That spirit enables the person to understand the mind of God. Once a person understands God's thinking, then they are convicted, like He is, that His way is the best way to live--reward or not.

Besides that, the punishment you think of like burning for eternity is not really what the Bible teaches.

Notice what you accuse me of:


I don't know why you would accuse me of such things. But, this is not true.



I am not saying that a person must have my religion. I am saying that the religion of the God of the Bible is superior to all others.

Further, I am not saying that there is no good in man. I am saying that we are a mixture of some good and some evil. I am saying that the natural mind is hostile to God's law. It is selfish, and will tend to make decisions based on self interest. That does change when a person is converted and receives God's spirit.

Just look at the world you live in today is filled with abuse.
The young doctor starts out with visions of helping mankind, and ends up aborting babies or performing breast implants because there is more money in it. He starts doing research to find a cure for cancer, but then it ends up that he seeks the awards and recognition, and it becomes those things that motivate him.

The rich have taken from us and they want to keep us in the position of feeding them. Thus, there is planned obsolescence. The rich corporate leaders are not satisfied with being well off they try to rip us off. Corporate scandal is at an all time high.

The leaders of the nations do what is in their best interests, not ours. For example, we prosecuted the border control officers that shot the drug runner to send a message. Don't mess with our drug dealers. We don't need a fence to stop illegal immigration. If we simply prosecuted anyone who was found hiring illegals. If we took away benefits for those illegals born here, they all leave. No jobs no benefits -- and they leave. We don't do it because it benefits us.

If you look around and are honest, I think you will find that the problem with the world today is that we do not live by God's rule. "Do unto others as you would have them to unto you."

True religion can make us better people. False religion--man made religion--can make us brutal beasts. We can torture and kill others in the name of God. How does that happen? It is not what God said to do. It is the dark side of mankind unrestrained by the law of God.



Actually I am not between any rock and hard place. You are in this place. I admit that God's law is superior to my humanity. You can make up your own morals if you like. You can think that they are superior to God's way. But, by doing so, I predict you will end up hurting yourself and others in time.

I suggest you look back over your life, and see what damage people have done to you, and you will have to admit that the reason they did it to you was that they were self serving.

Then, look over your life and see what you have done to others. Was it for the same reason? Do you think that you are inherently good? I think if you do such a thing, really look, and really see yourself, you will not like it, and will justify what you have done. You will rationalize it and continue on as before.

If you don't rationalize your own behavior, and you see it for what it really is, you will have to admit that the reason you hurt others was because you were not following God's rule of love toward neighbor.

If humanity was capable of following their own moral code and by doing so, live a good and ethical life, then life on earth would continue to improve. However, life is not improving. Our technical and military might improves every generation, but how to use our power must be learned by painful mistakes that result in war, poverty, disease, and famine on the earth. If we all accepted God's way, none of this would have to be. We would not have to learn by the tragedies we create. We could prevent them.

The question was, where do you think Christianity is headed in America?

Art

1. Do we have to have another God before Him?
2. Do we have to worship using idols
3. Do we have to take His name in vain
4. How hard is it to keep the Sabbath--free vacation
5. Do we have to dishonor our parents?
6. Do we have to murder?
7. Do we have to commit adultery?
8. Do we have to steal?
9. Do we have to be false witnesses
10. Do we have to desire what wrong for us to take?



1. So what about all the gods that came before him? All the greek gods and so forth. You're saying we should disreguard all of them, why? What about all the Chinese gods? What makes yours any better? "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-- Stephen Roberts

2. Do you go to church? Do you own a cross? Do you have pictures of jesus? Do you hear testiment from a pastor/preacher? Do you have a stupid bumper sticker on your car? Do you need any of those according to your bible? No you don't. Your religion is a cash cow.

3. What's your definition of vain? Besides, who are you or anyone else to tell me what context i'm using words. That seems pretty presumptious to me.

4. Some of us have jobs and a life. To sit for days and pray to something that can't even prove it's own existance seems perposterous.

5. Respect is earned not given. If your parents beat you or tried to kill you why should you honor them?

6. No, but do we need a book to tell us this? Do people do it, yes. However, anyone with common sense knows this is not acceptable. We don't need a book to tell us this.

7. We are the only species of animal on the planet that stays with one mate. In a essence it's against our biology because spreading the seed around and keeping the species going is our role. That's why at some point in their lives woman will want to bear a child. So in essence, the bible is telling us to go against our nature that is hard wired into us.

8. Do most of us (Americans) have to steal? No/ Go to a third world country where people will do anything for clean water and tell them this. How dare you make assumptions on behalf of a book when stealing means you either eat or die.

9. IF by false witness you mean turning a blind eye to other humans by following the creed of a book then i guess a lot of you people do.

10. In a time in our history Rosa Parks took a seat that was supposed to be taken by a white man. It was "wrong" for her to take that seat at the time. But because she did look at where we are now in civil rights. Is it perfect? No but it's going in the right direction. So if you want to oppress people and take away their rights then keep preaching.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

sorry KalamazooGuy87 for not commenting on your post. I'll reply later tonight.

I remember the pope apologizing for the church performinmg all those type of crimes against humanity ..so Art let me hear what you have to say about all the people the church help torture and murder and the sex scandals that's taking place today ..

Skot,

I hate this, because you have some misunderstandings when it comes to Christianity. I think most people who look negatively on Christianity just have some misunderstandings, which is why Christian apologetics is so important.

I don't have time to show you every wrong assumption you make, but here is one...



One of the commandments that the Israelites were given (there are 613 of them) is that the corners of their fields couldn't be harvested. The reason for this is so that the poor could take the food from the corners of other's fields to feed themselves. When fields were harvested, the poor were allowed to follow behind the harvesters and take any food that was left behind. The Book of Ruth talks about how Ruth did this on a man's field. One of the Laws of the Israelites was that they had to feed orphans and widows who were hungry. So Judaism and consequently, Christianity have laws and traditions that require that the poor be fed.

Being that I am a moral objectivist, I believe that if someone today were forced to steal to feed their children, they would be less guilty than if they allowed themselves or their children to die of starvation. By the same rule, it is right to lie to save another's life, because telling the truth would make you an accomplice to murder. God commands that the poor be fed and if Christians fail in that regard, it is a sin on their part, not a failing of Christianity. If everyone followed the 613 commandments given to Moses, everyone in the world would have clothes on their backs, food in their bellies and a bed to sleep on.

Churches and religions have done some very unchristian things, the reason is that only a person can be Christian, an object or legal fiction cannot be. Christian doctrine does not allow for torture, fornication or murder, therefore Christianity is innocent of any crimes which man made institutions have commited.

I’ll totally agree with you here. And this is the view of Zen Buddhism. We are of two minds Art. We have the mind of the egotistical self. And we have the mind of our true natural self. The whole point of Zen Buddhism is to become aware of these two minds.

Once you become aware of this folly you will never go back to allowing your egotistical self to run your life again. Not unlike your conclusion that once you see God’s way you understand it’s merit.



I agree, and when they go down that road of personal gain they are become lost in their egos and move further away from recognizing their true self.

I might remind you that many people who do this are Christians who actively attend church!!!

So from my point of view the Christian religion is failing to incite good moral values. Pure and simple.

You keep talking about how bad the world is, but many of the people who do these bad things are people who actively attend church and yet still have no sense of morality!

You need look no further than the perverted preists!

How more involved with the religion could they be!!!!

Christianity as a religion isn't working!



I’ve made mistakes in life. And all of those mistakes were made because I was blinded by the ego. Fortunately I found my true self at a quite young age, and then I began to live my life for the true me, and not for my ego. However, even when I was blinded by ego I was never malicious about it. There was never a time when I felt a desire to get over on other people for the purpose of personal gain.

I know many Christians personlaly who do have a malicious nature even though they attend church reqularly.

Christianity as a religion isn't working!



Christianity has been falling apart ever since it began. There are something like 2,500 different official sects of Christianity and that just in Protestantism alone. Then there’s Catholicism. And as far as I’m concerned Judaism and Islam are the same religion too, they just broke off much earlier, but all these religion(s) are based on the same original folklore from the middle east.

As far as the fate of Christianity is concerned. The statistics show that it’s only ‘growing’ at the same rate as the population growth. In other words, it isn’t ‘growing’ at all. It’s just maintaining it’s foothold within a given percentage of the population.

For every new Christian that comes in, an existing Christian tosses in the towel. Unfortunatley the ones that toss in the towel often become pure atheists and many of them feel resentment to a “god” that betrayed them. That’s truly sad.

I would much prefer to see ex-Christians become pantheists than to see them become atheists with a chip on their shoulder toward any idea of God.

Finally, many Christians are ‘bailing out’ but they don’t show up on the stats. This is because they continue to call themselves “Christians”, they continue to believe in Christ, but they’re fed up with the organized church. So they have bailed out of the organized religion to become what I call ‘Designer Christians”. They usually take on an attitude of “Live and let live”. They don’t proselytize or worry about trying to convert other people who tell other people what to believe.

I might remind you that these independent “Designer Christians” are becoming very large segment of Christianity, whey they are still counted in the stats for Christianity.

In other words, even though the stats say that Christianity is holding steady with population growth, it may very well be that it’s declining very rapidly as an organized institutional.

This makes me quite happy. I much prefer the “Designer Christians” over the organized religion.

Christianity as an organized religion isn't working!

I'm just taking everything into context. So now there are 613 commandments?! That's a big leap from the 10 moses was given. But then again that's a lot of stone tablets to carry.

I wasn't talking about food, i was talking about water.

"Being that I am a moral objectivist, I believe that if someone today were forced to steal to feed their children, they would be less guilty than if they allowed themselves or their children to die of starvation. By the same rule, it is right to lie to save another's life, because telling the truth would make you an accomplice to murder."

Moses was damned when he tried to feed some hungry people in the desert against god's will. So i think it's safe to say that there are no exception in god's laws.

If everyone followed the 613 laws god provided then what would be the point of free will?

god is not what christians make him out to be. Loving, caring- wrong.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Bible, Matthew 10, 34-39

Am i taking that out of context too? Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Art: "I am not saying that a person must have my religion. I am saying that the religion of the God of the Bible is superior to all others."

In your opinion.

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

My opinion is that even the most superior fairy tale is still a fairy tale.

Well said Abracadabra

In 2004 the pope recieved immunity from the white house because a prosecutor wanted to charge him for covering up a sex scandel. I don't know why this surprises everyone, the bible is full of "sinful" acts that were done by "saints".

But then again it doesn't help when the pope was also a part of Hitler's youth program.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
[Hitler (Mein Kampf, Chapter 2)]

Thanks christianity (and catholics) for that compassion and love you're spreading.

Dont let someone tell you that all christians are perfect, this is why i cannot believe how catholics believe, i cannt believe that a "pope" is not sinful, the Pope is a man just like all of us. Dont mistake religion on 1 persons mistakes we have talked about that before.

No worries we have been having long posts,

and this type of denial is why the pope had to apologize for the crimes of the church and why people are leaving the christian religion and why Christianity is now under government control

my problem with other religions is the fact that, they are appealing to our eye. We need guidelines consequences for our mistakes, granted we should be forgiven, we should have rules that must be followed. Otherwise Religion should not be taken serious. I can do what i want enjoy all pleasures evil has to offer yet ill obtain enlightenment? Ahh cant agree with such, there must be Judgment, a time where you have to face all your sins.

//
and this type of denial is why the pope had to apologize for the crimes of the church and why people are leaving the christian religion and why Christianity is now under government control
//

Yet at the same time 3 athiest got saved at my church yesterday. As many leave there are more comming. I would imagine most christians leave God once in their life. What is life like without God, as have i. SO People leaving christianity, there are many comming in the door as well, singing the same tune you do