Actually this isn’t true. Christianity has indeed shot itself in its own foot.

The “growth rate” of Christianity in the USA is the same as the population growth. In other words, it isn’t “growing” at all, it’s merely holding stagnant. For every new Christian proselytized into the religion an existing Christian tosses in the towel.

There are just as many Christians leaving Christianity as there are inductees. Current stats show that it’s merely holding steady right now, and many believe this is an apex, meaning that it’s about to take a dive.

In fact, as an “organized religion” it is actually already in a nose-dive.

The stats for Christianity come from surveys. But many of the people in the USA call themselves “Christians” yet they basically denounce the church (or at best simply don’t attend regularly) . They are “Designer Christians”. They just want to believe in Christ and live and let live. They aren’t interested in proselytizing the religion. They aren’t radical fundamentalists. Most of them believe in evolution and don’t see it as being in conflict with a believe in Christ. Most of them would welcome Gay neighbors and aren’t bigoted in their beliefs. These people are actually quite friendly.

So from the standpoint of an ‘organized religion’ as most of the vociferous fundamentalists would like to see it, my guess is that Christianity is indeed on its way out and will be completely forgotten before this current millennia is over, at least in its most fundamental radical form.

The people who argue for Christianity on chat forums actually tend to turn even more people off to it. So they are like machine guns blasting away at their own feet.

In fact, we see people who call themselves “Christians” arguing among themselves more than they argue with anyone else.

Clearly they don’t even agree with themselves. I think they just like to argue.

Thanks Rabbit Heres your 6 bits..haha Blessings to you..Miles

Welcome to the forums Amalgham.

Lots of people here know each other pretty well, and so topics tend to fly all over the place. There may even be several separate conversations taking place between different people (like a partly line with cross-talk).

Rather than trying to follow the whole thread, just post your comments and then look for specific responses to what you've said.

I don't have much to say on the topic itself. I don't believe that the Bible is accurate. I don't think anyone knows what the man called Jesus might have actually said when on the cross, or at any other time. All we have is hearsay writings after the fact. In some cases, I'm totally convinced that words were put into the mouth of Jesus after the fact.

Keep in mind that the Bible does not contain a single solitary world from Jesus. Jesus never wrote anything down. Everything that we attribute to being the "words of Jesus" are indeed hearsay.

So for me, the original question is moot. I'm not even convinced that Jesus ever actually uttered the words in question to begin with.

No Abra speaking for myself and i believe many others I do not like to argue. It is not a fruit of the spirit. But the decline you speak of you are probally having the same at least in your field of expertise or they are imported. sad state of mind. with our schools not teaching the basics i would assume that thier are fewer who can do what you do. Thier are the exceptions like the kid who come up with a formula at the national science fair that stumped the experts about how to make metal i believe with stand heat to a much greater degree. That would greatly help the space shuttle. correct me if i got it wrong. But people who are staying in the faith i believe are starting to dig deeper. Yahweh never called his people a huge flock but my little flock. Blessings...Miles

Yeah I agree with you Abra the damage I am talking about is how much more things they can effect negatively even though there numbers may be shrinking. Its like a drowning man grasping at anyone and dragging them down. The damage is exponentially worse then you would think from the numbers alone.

YUP!!!! He was , He is He will be.

The Father only speaks through the Son.

The core of the matter is just that.

Tomas Octivus is clear in this knowledge. Thomas Aquinas, et al.

This is the basis for the Trinity, based on the words used in the OT. It reconciles the NT. to the OT.

Okay, here's the problem. I already knew that. That was covered in one of the first lessons in my Christology course. The point and the ONLY point I was making was that YVWH refers to Father and Son. Isaiah 44:6 shows that very clearly. No emotion, just a simple fact. I actually did a post months ago where I asked If God the Father has ever spoken directly to any human. I know of two occations, when Jesus was Baptized and when Jesus was transfigured. Malach Yahweh was Jesus and Jesus was VERY active in the Old Testament. From making Balaam's ass talk to leading God's army against Jericho. I have never doubted or questioned that. I think you were expecting an argument and missed the fact that I only disagred with you on whom "YVWH" refers to.

Abra,

You see what it is clear as day.

The problems associated with the faith are the product of experiences with spiritual sensation and not one of scholastic inquiry into the harmony of the OT and the NT.

Where the future of Churchianity goes is making itself somewhat self evident.

The only concern I have is that the Holy Bible continue to be published and dispensed into the open market.

If anything is to be bought and sold, let it be this book.

We smuggle this book into every country. We hope to let it speak for itself.

It is being translated into every language spoken on the face of the Earth, even as we speak.

This is the best and clearest way to reach any that may want to learn of the source of the spiritual experience gleaned from preaching the message of Christ crucified and the Love He shares, even now.

More often than not, this is being lost in the circular debates surrounding the message by overzealous and unlearned believers.

Finding congruence and disciplined agreement of the efficacy of the ancient writings is exhibitive of the personal experiences overshadowing the message itself and creating the storm that is clouding the message itself.

Within the Holy Bible itself is the one statement that is central to the controversy centering on a lack of unity within Christian circles and will, in the end, prove to be the thorn that will separate the 'wheat from the chaff', so to speak.

And that is, 'faith' itself.

Luke 18 : 7-8. Jesus' own words, as it is written.

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith in the earth?



He is apparently more concerned with the heart attitude of the individual believer in God, than he appears to be with the complete saturation of any one doctrine defining his message.



To that end, the debate has raged since it was first penned in approxiamately 1451 BC.

Deuteronomy 32: 20-21.

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be : for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God ; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities : and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people ; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.


hhhmmmm......

Then again, and these are the only two references in the Old testament as pre-christian thought, in Habakkuk 2:4-8, penned in 626 BC., towards the end of the age of the Messianic Prophecies that paused words from God for a 400+ year period in anticipation of the appearance of Jesus.

He is speaking to the work of Satan, who would steal man away from the Father by mocking and counterfeiting the Words of JHWH, or, the Son. FYI.

" Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him : but they shall live by his faith.
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Shall not all take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, ans say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay!
Shall not they rise up suddenly that shall bite thee, and awake that shall vex thee, and thou shalt be for booties unto them?
Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the people shall spoil thee; because of men's blood, and for the violence of the land, of the city, and of all that dweel therein."



I know this is long and laborious on my part, but hear me out to the end.



The best place to withstand the truth is at the center of truth.

The worst light to face and leave brightly lit as a beacon to all, is the one that exposes the shadow of ddarkness completely.

There is no other fight for the fallen usurper, but within the very doctrine preserved to declare the demise of error.


The fight the world sees within Christianity is the war over the freedom over all men being waged between the Victor, Christ, and his fallen and beaten arch nemesis, Lucifer.

The resistance is spiritual and fought on the front lines in the earth, not in the spiritual world outside of man.

The battle over the unborn is waged with the born, and against those which would set themselves in array for the unborn until there are no more unborn to defend.

Of course Churchianity is being attacked, and from within, no less!!!!!!!

There is no other fight, as all else is not the threat.

Christianity is the greatest threat to religions in general.

Always was, always is, and always will be.


What you see is what must be.

It is what it is.




Again, I agree with your assessment.

Not the Father, but a re-iteration of the God of Israel when he says, "and his redeemer the LORD of hosts;"

You see, that refers back to Israel and not refer back to "the LORD, the King of..."

The "LORD the King of..." requires no redeemer, let alone redemption.

Do you follow the sentence structure as a result of that distinction?

The statement , " ....and beside me there is no God." ( 430...elohiym, the plural dervative of el), displays the distinction that the other gods of other peoples are not JHWH.

But Exodus 3:14 is the only scripture giving the Father and the Son in one statement as being mutually inclusive to Israel only.


This is the heart of the distinction that Lucifer was opposed to Christ Himself, and not directly opposed to the Father. In this manner Lucifer challenged the right to speak for the Father and usurp Christ's role as the Living Word of creation itself. His attempt was to steal the authority and block man from the Father, not to replace the Father. Get it?

Do you see it?

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. God doesn't need a redeemer, but the word doesn't mean that exactly. It's more like gardener. I don't need a gardener for myself, I need a gardener for my lawn. God doesn't need a redeemer for Himself, He needs one for His children.



I have found nothing to suggest that in the Bible. I know of no scriptures that directly address what the fall of Satan involved. Please share some scriptures on this.

maybe he was talking to himself ..hummm that's even scarier

http://www.eadshome.com/Father.htm

and that is one of the divisions in Christianity, some which to ignore the rules and laws of the God of the Old Testament and claim Jesus as God and only follow The New Testament therefore emerging into a new form of Christianity called "New Age"

All this says is that Jesus was just another man like everyone else.

I've been saying this all along.

In fact this just confirms what YZ said in the OP.

How can it say that, when I only mentions Jesus once and not in that context? And besides, if you follow the link, you will see that your assertion is not supported by the remainder of the document.

First, 'elohiym' is the word used in Genesis 1. Accept for the moment that that refers to Christ. " And God said, Let there be light..." and so on.

John 1 : 1. says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and was God.

John 1 : 14. "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Genesis 3 : 1-5.

1. Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God( JHWH elohiym) had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God(elohiym) said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2. And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fuit of the trees of the garden:
3. But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God(elohiym) hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4.And the serpent saidunto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5. For God(elohiym) doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods(elohiym) , knowing good and evil.
notice that the serpent is not saying, the LORD God(JHWH elohiym) but rather, God (elohiym)


This is the wedge that divides "JHWH elohiym" from "elohiym" in general.

And tempts the woman, who spoke with a 'serpent' and not with "JHWH elohiym" ( the LORD God).

Adam heard "the LORD God (JHWH elohiym) but did not see him physically.

Eve heard the 'serpent' and saw him physically.

The serpent was "more subtil" than any beast of the field, as it is written in verse 1.

Subtil. (6175. only time in all of scripture that this word is used...never again) aruwm, aw-room'...pass. part. of 6191; cunning(usually in a bad sense):- crafty, prudent, subtil.

NOTE: used as 'crafty' in Job 5:12 and 15:5 as speaking outside of Godly truth.
used as 'prudent' in Proverbs only when used as defence against evil in wisdom through silence.......hhmmmm......
used as cunning never at anytime in scripture




The voice of the serpent is deliberate as one with a visual and distracted focus, not one of inwardly spiritual.

The serpent is depicted as appealing to the physical senses of the woman.

The LORD God (JHWH elohiym) is appealing to Adam's spirit.

The difference is stark and clearly represents a distinctive difference in manifestation. One that Adam would recognize, but not the woman.

Now, before Eve appears, it is written in Genesis 2:18-21 that the LORD God(JHWH elohiym) spoke to Adam and laid out creation to him. That would have included the serpent as well.


The effect of this moment is well understood by all believers.

But the point is rather who is deceiving whom of what.



Since Jesus is 'the Word made flesh' and was with God and was God, then Jesus is the Word that spoke all of creation into existence.

Since the serpent was used to make a different word known, then it stands that Lucifer( the serpent) was usurping the Word.


Thus we have the war between Christ, "the Living Word", and Lucifer, "the temptor".


That Christ manifested in the flesh, he overcame the lie with the right to abrogate the blindness in men, and re-open the fellowship of man with the Father in prayer, with the use of His name.

The breach repaired.

The "accuser of the brethren" chained from the prayers of those using the name of Jesus. At the very least.

We know the rest.......

Okay, I understand where you are coming from. We will have to agree to disagree.

It says, "[including Jesus Christ]"

Do they recant that later?

I'm only going by the excerpt you posted. If the excerpt is meaningless out of context then why bother posting it?

I know you are only trolling, but I will answer anyways.



Jesus is God, but he submitted himself to the will of the Father. Therefore, the Father is God to Jesus and everything else in creation. Since Jesus shares God's eternal nature, Jesus is God and creator to all of creation.

http://www.eadshome.com/Father.htm

No matter if Jesus is willing to take a back seat to the "father "or not he still could not feel forsaken. He knows all of Gods thoughts.