ty creative that was very sweet of you....and I also apologize and call this a truce. Please people understand that I truly believe you can have your beliefs I would just like the same respect. I believe what I believe with good reason.....I have been on the search for myself for many many many years and I know pretty much most on all beliefs out there. It is not my personality honestly to fight with people....But when it comes to God and Jesus and the Bible as most have told me I become a pit bull. And I know the Lord God doesn't need me to protect him.....It's my inate inner being that has to fight....And not for the voils or creative or abra's of the world...because I already know where each of you stand....It's for the ones really searching like I was....I want them to have all sides and make the decision on their own. And even if you don't believe in it....give others a chance to look at the whole picture.

And again from the bottom of my heart I have major respect for voile, abra, creative, and all who oppose me......And like I said I was not led here for them.....but for the truly lost who are seeking...and if they seek you all out....well thats truly fine with me.....and for the ones that seek me let that be also.

I can only speak for myself feral... but I assure you...

I do not "oppose" your belief in God... I opposed your personal attack on me... and allowed it to support the Us vs. Them mentality... which I do not support...

Quite the contrary actually... I support your belief in God...

Suppose what would happen should we all look for what is familiar between us... what is comfortable... respectful... considerate...

No one is "better" than anyone else... we are all teachers... we are all students...

The world viewed through someone else's eyes can be quite disturbing... or a beautiful treasure of this life... it is our choice how we see it... truly our choice...

could not agree more.....and I once again humbly apologize for any personal attacks on you creative....Like I said I get very passionate about my beliefs...but that in no way means that everyone has to have the SAME beliefs.....

And I truly believe that we are all students as well as teachers.....For what truly is life is one is not always learning.....My personal motto....Do something everday.....don't merely exsist....

Thanks creative.....

Debbie

Well folks, this is an interesting debate. The conflict between our percieved frame of reality and the discoveries that alter that frame of reality is something that we've been wrestling with most notably since we discovered the world wasn't flat after all. These new things tend to bump us outside our comfort zone and generate resistance.

To address the topic at hand, nobody has any solid proof as to the origin of the universe. But we do have clues. I grew up in a strongly religious household, so I'm familiar with the Christian Bible. I have also, much to the chagrin of my dear sweet mother, decided that I don't believe it. lol. I believe in respecting ALL opinions, as I can't prove any of you wrong. I believe creationists have just as much of a right to their opinion as I do mine. However, for anyone who may giveth a ****, I'll share my reasons for my own personal beliefs.

Evolution and the Age of the Earth

There is a lot of information that would suggest the earth is in fact 4 billion years old, that it was most likely an offshoot of the sun created by an impact (evidenced by the constant cooling and the earths inner core). There are certainly pieces to the evolutionary puzzle that are missing, however, most appear to be in place. If the creation took place according to the book of Genesis, then science is wrong. Several factors are:

Carbon Dating & Fossil Records

Geological evidence

The existance of species never mentioned in the bible such as dinosaurs, neanderthals and other huminoids

The complete impossibility that is Noah's Ark (I can't even begin to touch on the impossibilities, but if interested this article: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html is EXTREMELY interesting.)

The Origin of the Universe

This is the most profound question known to man today, and I fear, in our lifetime may never be solved. However, Stephen Hawking combined Einsteins Theory of Relativity and the Laws of Quantum Physics to come up with a plausible model. He suggests that perhaps we're veiwing the universe as we viewed the earth when we thought it was flat. His idea is that time and space are in fact relative and the universe is best modeled as a bubble. He explains this better himself in this 5 part lecture... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFjwXe-pXvM. (Although it is a bit painful to listen to as it takes him a while to ...speak?. But whatever the case he's very interesting) The main point being that perhaps the 'beginning' is more like a point on a sphere, like the south pole. Just as the question, what's at the edge of the earth became obsolete by discovering it was round, asking what came before the begining, or the 'big bang' becomes just as rediculous as asking what's south of the south pole.

Biblical Contradiction

Biblical scholars are good at explaining the extraordinary claims of the bible by claiming God can do whatever. If that's true then I suppose that's an inarguable position. However, if I was attempting to create a tool to lead uninformed people I would write a book about an omnipotent being, claim to be his representative, and say that although what I tell you may seem impossible, it is entirely possible because this being can do whatever he wants! And how do you know the book is true? Why of course, the book is true because the book says its true! And it's a sin to question its validity, so don't ask again! Possible? I guess. Likely? Not really... The bible as we know it was compiled in the middle ages, then copied by hand for generations. Many scrolls were sorted through and the ones least contradictory to each other were chosen, and all of a sudden you have the Catholic Church, which became a wealthy powerful entity in middle aged europe.

Again, I respect all opinions, and don't hope to change any minds. If those of you who are christians are wrong, you've nothing to lose. If I'm wrong, I'll need to be buried with a lot of tanning oil. But as Hawking said, "The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired.” It is my belief that if it IS divinely inspired, this God is not the same God described to us by Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or any other religion. The hard evidence, while incomplete, is too heavily against it.

very well said josh......and welcome to the DEBATE...giggle

Why thank you. That took a long time to write. lol.

And I know how that is. I think it took me about an hour to write the original thread....giggle. Again welcome Josh....

You keep coming across like a 'fundie apologetics class meister'!!!

Can you drop the role and jsut be 'feral'. This is not 'bible school'. Of couse you can speak your beliefs, and believe in what you believe in. No one will stop you, and no one will denouce any part of your comments.

More over, you can keep imposing on all of us, as you have been doing, your 'bible inerrancy' beliefs, with your 'bully apologetics' fireworks as much as you wish.

Again, no one, not even me, will stop you. You have been doing it and no one has stopped you.

I, for one, have been denouncing your 'bible inerrancy' apologetics supreme agenda, which must govern all and everything according to you. That is just not so! And no amount of bullying on your part will ever make it so. And that is the message you conveniently have no respect for.

You can't play both side of the 'fence' 'feral', bully and victim according to your self-serving dictate, and expect to get away with it.
You can't play bully as you admit yourself, and switch to victim, claiming you have a right to your beliefs too, when your bullying tactics are denounced.

Bullying tactics, dressed-up in preposterous 'apologetics' costumes, are not beliefs, they are preposterous and manipulative tactics, period.

If you really can't see the difference, let's have an honest conversation about it, I'm sure you will end-up distinguishing the two: manipulative tactics vs personnal beliefs.


As for your comment:

'...And again from the bottom of my heart I have major respect for voile, abra, creative, and all who oppose me...'

On the one hand I appeciate that, and respect you 'feral' also. And I don't oppose you 'feral'. I denounce 'fundie' tactics, not you. Same as your 'homosexaulity' vs 'homosexual' logic. I oppose the sin, not the sinner.

Now, given that obvious respect, I'll simply chuck-up as an error on your part, the 'out of context' quotes, taken from previous posts of mime, that you have used, a couple of posts above, to support your 'victimizing' outcry.

It is a rather silly 'apologetics' trick, and an insult to our intelligence. But we all make mistakes, and I forgive you.

In the end 'feral', stop pushing 'bible inerrancy' and its acconmpanying 'apologetics' fireworks, as if we all needed to agree with you, and you will never hear me denounce 'fundie' tactics around you again.

On the other hand, keep up with the bullying firewokrs, it is your privilege to do so, and likewise, I'll keep up with the denounciations, because it is my privilege to do so.

And just as a thought, what do you say to Catholics, 1,2 billion of them, whom do not share this position of Christianity? I'm not saying you should change your mind, but what is your take on that?

What would you say to the Pope of the Catholic Church, Benoit XIV, and the litany of bishops and theologians, whom again have a very different view from yours.

Again, not suggesting one minute that you change your views because of the Pope or the Catholic Church, you have the right to believe exactly what you believe.
But why are you so insistent on giving the impression that it is the Christian way. It is not. It is a rather marginal view within the Christian world.

It is OK for you to believe in that particular view. But don't go implying that Christians whom don't subscribe to the views of the marginal 'fundamentalism-apologetics' faction, are lesser Christians. That would turn out tobe a gross misrepresentation of the Christian world. Kind of a confused, upsidedown upside-down picture.

More over, you can keep imposing on all of us, as you have been doing, your 'bible inerrancy' beliefs, with your 'bully apologetics' fireworks as much as you wish.

First off big difference is I never start the nastiness voile...you do. And as a prime example when someone like creative apologizes and honestly means it....well then so do I.

I apologized to creative and only to creative. Im only telling you voile that you don't have a clue as to whom I am and yes Im sorry you put down my beliefs every chance you get.
And again don't act like you know me....cuz this is the real me and if you care to go talk to a few that really know me...then you would know that....so once again your lil subtle drop the role and just be me doesn't fly coming from you. I have yet to speak my mind without nastiness from you.......what I said that you so have bashed was from my heart and you managed to once again hurt and just be your nasty AA self.

And an open forum is hardly imposing on anyone.....and the only bully is you.

And you have been trying to stop me at every turn, and every chance you get......but you won't.....

And please do tell how I am playing both sides of the fence.....please!!!!! If your referring to being a bully....your the only one that I am like that with......and yes I am the victim of the AA going around trying to save all from become a "Fundie"

and haven't you ever noticed the only one who I get like this is you....so look in the mirror voile and ask yourself why is that.......And my respect for abra and creative is real....yours however is getting questionable to this point......And as you have said in the past because I am a woman......don't think I will ever back down from you.....and run..cuz it will never happen.....I will only pray that God's softens that ruthless, nasty, heart of yours.

As far as homosexuality goes....I didn't make the rules....and I am also not their judge......I don't hate the person I hate the sin.....

And every single one of the posts I used to back up your pathetic lie of letting me believe as I wish......you just blew up with this whole thread......If I believe that it is a sin to be homosexual....ITS MY BELIEF AA

HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE BELOW.......
In the end 'feral', stop pushing 'bible inerrancy' and its acconmpanying 'apologetics' fireworks, as if we all needed to agree with you, and you will never hear me denounce 'fundie' tactics around you again.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH is what I hear at this point.


As far as Catholics they are also Christians, but there are a
few things that I have trouble with in what they believe. I don't believe in praying to Mother Mary, or having statues of all the saints.....I for sure think that priests should be able to wed and have families.
And again they can have any view they wish....Im not their judge.


And I have never ever ever said the Christian way or th Highway or anything to that effect......And where have I ever said that implying that Christians whom don't subscribe to the views of the marginal'fundamentalism-apologetics' faction, are lesser Christians. You just love to make it up as you go don't you.

Nive Going Voil! u finally pissed her off and got past that goody2shoes facade!
High five man ive been trying for 3 threads n i havent gotten a response like that!
Can i get an amen!


anyway feral im curious what u have to say about fossils, and pre homo sapien skeletons
If u say "the devil put them there" im gonna crap my pants in frustration

lol lol lizard.......I would never get pissed at you lizard......I and yes fossils are the work of satan......

lol lol

and oh yea lizard I am good.......but far from a goody 2 shoes.

"fossils are the work of satan"

thats the kind of attitude that just seems moronic, its like religion is a mental wall that keeps people from learning from a different point of view
of course the response to that is going 2 b something like "y would i need a different point of view?"
Mental conditioning (subtle brainwashing) is a sad thing
people cant think 4 themselves and turn to their oppressors (religious law/leaders/mental conditioning) for answers

Satan says, Lizardking, I have bones of extinct animals and I will have yours too!

Muahahahahahaha

ok pagan kiddies lets play satan says!
satan says sacrifice a virgin
Very Good!
now take sacrament
Oops! Satan didnt say ya buncha hellions!

at the lizard man.......I will have to get back to you on the fossil question....but heck no they are not of satan........lol lol

Thank u 4 conceding that

i mean thats one step away from saying "the devil made me do it"
Blaming the devil is something that Nonchristians LOVE mocking u guys about

Satan says, Your ancestors were pond slime!!

So why do you feel that you have to hate the sin?

Does your God teach you to hate?

That sounds like a really terrible religion to belong to.

Sounds more like a hateful cult to me.

I think you misunderstood the message. You’re not suppose to hate sin in others, you’re simply suppose to avoid what you belief would be a sin for you.

I would steer clear of any religion that teaches you to hate.

If Christianity teaches people to hate that’s just another reason to avoid it at all cost.

Sounds like devil worship to me.

I KNEW IT !!!!


can I run in the muck now!?!?!?!?!?!?