Artgurl - Neat! How did you do that?

As I was explaining to Wouldee, on another thread - what follows is just a short part of the whole articl. The web site is listed also, for your continued reading enjoyment.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051028140816.htm

SEE WEB ADDRESS FOR FULL STORY

Science News
Picky Female Frogs Drive Evolution Of New Species In Less Than 8,000 Years

ScienceDaily (Oct. 28, 2005) — Picky female frogs in a tiny rainforest outpost of Australia have driven the evolution of a new species in 8,000 years or less, according to scientists from the University of Queensland, the University of California, Berkeley, and the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service.

"That's lightning-fast," said co-author Craig Moritz, professor of integrative biology at UC Berkeley and director of the Museum of Vertebrate Zoology. "To find a recently evolved species like this is exceptional, at least in my experience."

The yet-to-be- named species arose after two isolated populations of the green-eyed tree frog reestablished contact less than 8,000 years ago and found that their hybrid offspring were less viable. To avoid hybridizing with the wrong frogs and ensure healthy offspring, one group of females preferentially chose mates from their own lineage. Over several thousand years, this behavior created a reproductively isolated population - essentially a new species - that is unable to mate with either of the original frog populations.

This example suggests that rapid speciation is often driven by recontact between long-isolated populations, Moritz said. Random drift between isolated populations can produce small variations over millions of years, whereas recontact can amplify the difference over several thousands of years to generate a distinct species.

"The overarching question is: Why are there so many species in the tropics?" Moritz said. "This work has led me to think that the reason is complex topography with lots of valleys and steep slopes, where you have species meeting in lots of little pockets, so that you get all these independent evolutionary experiments going on. Perhaps that helps explain why places like the Andes are so extraordinarily diverse."

Moritz; lead author Conrad Hoskin, a graduate student at the University of Queensland in St. Lucia, Australia; and colleagues Megan Higgie of the University of Queensland and Keith McDonald of the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service, reported their findings in the Oct. 27 issue of Nature.

The green-eyed tree frog, Litoria genimaculata, lives in the Wet Tropics area of northeast Queensland, a rugged tropical region of Australia along the Pacific Ocean's Great Barrier Reef. The frog, which is green with reddish-brown splotches, is common around streams and grows to

However isn't a "free and open forum" allowed to encompass "all" beliefs? That would include the "fundies" as well. That is the purpose of having "threads" to begin with. I have no personal interest in Paganism - but LadyV has about 10 threads going on this topic, and has found the group of individuals with interest in this topic. That's what a forum is all about. Yet you do all that you can to hammer on Feral in her attempt to find those who have shared interests as she does. Voile - YOU are the "fundie" that you are so adament of railing against! For you have taken on every attribute that you have attributed to "fundies" - just without the Christian perspective.

If you had any inkling at all toward such considerations, they could be met quite easily with a little on-line research and a bit of concentrated brain power.




There is not even a bridge long enough to stretch between the idea of one believing in God and connecting that belief solely with the Bible. For proof of this, simply consider the over 200,000 'different' religious organizations that fall under the label of Christian. They can't even agree on what to believe. This does not EVEN include the millions who hold a belief in God,with or without a Christ, but have no faith in the Bible.

Therefore, whatever you think you have provided as proof is no pooff.......

Also, there are literally millions of scientists, their religions not-withstanding, who have printed, for you, all the studies that contain their proof. Millions of tests, experiments, archeological evidence.

Compare that to the one and only single source from which ALL fundie proof is retrieved.

To back up the premise of a thing with the thing itself, is no pooffff......

The only time external proof has been attempted by the fundies, it has been disputed, adequately and reputeably.

Therefore, only one overwhelming conclusion can be made. The universe, of a fundie, is limited to the doctrinally interpreted stories and myths that have been fashioned and created by man.

We can all learn from one another. It's just far more interesting to learn from those who reach and grow and experience the things of this world than to learn from those who have only the same thing to say, over and over.

So should I have need of understanding a limited point of view, I am content to know exactly where to find it.

May the knowledge that passeth all understanding, be forwarded to those with an open mind and a will to use it.

Peace to you all!

Eljay,

You are starting to show some strange colours my friend.

What part of fascist tactics characterized by zealot regimentation, ans systematized suppression of all opposition do you not appear to understand here. Is that what you characterize as a behavior befitting a 'free open' discussion 'chat' forum?

Fundamentalism, and the people whom practice it, look for 'bible correction fights' everywhere they go, and nothing else. And where there are no 'bible fights' to be had, they'll make one up!!! If the scriptures are not in the background and froeground of EVERY topic, it seems the fundies mission is to force it in there, and 'make it win'!!! thee seems to be it's nothing!!!

Fundies, with their main artillery of modern 'cut-and-paste' Apologetics, 'infiltratre' every free-and-open space to spread their...
... 'we're under attack, and we must suppress the opposition',
war like mantra.

That is not religious! That has nothing to do with 'freely' expressing one's beliefs, or sharing about one's faith!

That 'feral', or anyone else chose to express personnal beliefs, or share about personnal relation to god, or other spiritual phenomenons, has never been denounced by myself or anyone else on these forums.

It is this 'correcting', 'evangelizing', and 'out of context bible quoting' for everything and for nothing, with a 'we're on a 'mission to win souls', with a 'foaming at the mouth' aggression mode, that is being denounced.

It is this insistent malevolent attitude and behavior, going squarely against the spirit of a 'free and open' discussion forum that is in serious question here, not the expression of personnal beliefs, whatever its basis.

It is this impression that we are dealing with 'goons', whom have a 'contract' from the 'apologetics mafia boss'.

It is this transgression of every rule, and constantly crossing the line of civility, and justifying it by this '... we're at war!!!', battle cry.

When 'Lady' posts information about different faiths, and beliefs, she is doing so exactly in the spirit of this forum. She's not selling, evangelizing, or trying to enlist 'souls' for her team. If you are not interested in other religons, or beliefs, JUST DON'T VISIT THE THREAD. That is the 'free and open' thing, you see!!!

When I see ‘Coffee house chat for Christians’ or ‘Inspiring Christian quotes’, and the likes, I think they are perfectly legitimate threads for those with an interest in that sort of exchange, and those like myself, whom have no interest, don’t visit! That simple.

ON the other hand, when a title of a thread ‘hides’ a distortion, a provocation, or a preposterous statement of affirmation disguised as a question, I enter the thread, and more often than not, cross paths with my ‘fundie’ friends.

Come to think of it, a perfect topic to address in a more informative and structured manner in this forum is precisely 'US fundamentalism', and the US movement which created religious fundamentalism :

Where does it come from?
How come 'religious fundamentalism' started in the US?
What are the serious limitations of US fundamentalism?
US fundamentalism isn't growing, and seems to be doing more harm than good to Christianity, has it become a thorn which Christianity knows not how to retreive?


Fundamentalism isn't a religion!!! Christianity is the religion, Catholicism being its overwhelming constituting and practicing religious body. Protestantism, a more modest and fragmented entity, is also a constituting religious body of Christianity.

Fundementalism, is none of this. It is a radical and belligerent faction, inside the Protestant Church, which even the Protestant Church as a whole, isn't comfortable with.

So, NO PASS Eljay!!! Fascist tactics, practicing newly acquired ‘apologetics’ 'WMD's' (Weapons of Mind Destruction), from the mentors, ‘correcting’ or ‘suppressing’ any opinion or view which doesn’t agree with the ‘fascist fundamentalist’ line, will never be acceptable in a democratic, free and open expression ‘religion chat’ forum. I for for one will keep denouncing with pride and resilience.

As for your last ‘wild-bird’ knee-jerk accusation,

“… For you have taken on every attribute that you have attributed to "fundies" - just without the Christian perspective…”


… it is at best unfounded.

If you seek to work ‘fundie’ into an accusation directed at me, at least get it dialectically right. If anything fundie, I AM MASSIVELY ‘ANTI-FUNDAMENTALISM’!!!

As you seem to correctly observe, my interventions have been somewhat ‘focused’ lately. But it is an ‘Anti-fundametalism’ stance, AGAINST all the 'fundie' demagogues, whom clearly appear to have no conscience.

As for the “… without the Christian perspective…”, you will need to wake-up from your illusion about ‘fundies’ and the their exact relationship to Christianity.

From MY Christian perspective, and that of an overwhelming majority of Christians, there is nothing less Christian than the ‘US fundamentalism’ movement.

Don’t be fooled Eljay, while you might get the impression living in specific parts of the US, that the ‘fundie’ way is the Christian Way, I have bad news for you. There is an overwhelming majority of Christians out there in the real world, whom have no concept of the US ‘bible belt’, and anything ‘fundie’!!!

So, slow down with the ‘head office’ bulk thinking Eljay, the fundies do not hold any sort of favorable standings in the Christian WORLD, and would have a lot to gain from listening, rather than pontificating.

I invite you to switch to the ‘spirit’ channel, and read this message again. If you do, you will receive it in a completely different light!!!

Best regards Eljay.

Voile;

It is seeming more and more that "fundie" is a labelling of interpretive methods - rather than "faith" or what one believes. If you'll look a little closer at these threads - you'll notice everywhere there's a "fundie" representation - a "pantheist" representation, and an "anti-fundie" representation. All claiming, with the same zeal that the other interpretations are being made with a "less than intelligent - borderline stupidity" attitude. These are present in all of the threads to which you are refering with equal occurance. So why is it you do not go after Abra with the same Zeal as you do Feral? Perhaps it is because you "think" that Abra is right and Feral is wrong. It is your right on these forums to decide for yourself whatever - and equally so your right to zealously state it - in whatever manner you so wish. But if I/we are to let you post freely in this manner (which I encourage - I'm not looking to silence you or ban you) than I think that the fundie should be able to freely post whatever they think - referencing what they will with the same freedom you do. This is my position. It is you who are the "intolerant" one my friend. I could fill a thread with your "fundie alert" posts and your non-stop requests for Spider to go away.

No Voile - I don't know what you see when you read your posts - but I see a "fundie" in all of your Anti-fundie rants.
This is not a complaint about you - just an observation.

With a heavy sigh I must concur. It often spills over to those of us who are simple believers of scripture without the mission of converting everything that has blood flowing through it's veins. But - hey, if they want to post, let 'em. Refute them when they're way out of line, but don't insult their intelligence because they believe what they believe by insisting they're dellusional and "poisoning" the discussion. They have come to their conclusions in no less a fashion than have you, and like you - may be in an ever evolving and learning process that will eventually lead them out of "fundie-ism" and onto something more - well, Christian... If anything - you should be thankful, as I'm sure all it's doing is strengthening your resolve in what you believe in your effort to refute what they do. I do not necessarily disagree with you on what you often say - I just don't see "how" you're saying it as being any different than what you are protesting against.

Eljay thinks, therefore Eljay is.


As do others....


The alley cat yodels in the moonlight, perched on a fence for a good view of the neighborhood and makes herself an easy target. You should see her collection of old shoes and bricks!!




What's not to like?

Must be ..... ɔıƃɐɯ ʞɹɐp

Eljay,

I sincerely and courteously asked that you switch to the 'spirit' channel and read my post again. That it would give it a totally different 'light'.

Instead you reply in the most obvious and unsubtle 'apologetics' 101 fashion: maintain an antagonisitc stance, confuse genres, make discrediting statements about the 'invented ennemy', blame him, with the help of empty 'circular logic', that HE is the culprit of the very antics fundies are guitly of and are unwilling to acknowledge and be responsible for.

'fundie fascist tactics' is not a religious representation as let's say, Pantheism, or Catholicism, or Buddhism, or Muslimism, etc.

'fundieism' is not a religion!!! It is not a reperesentation of Christianity. It is an 'Anti-religion'. Anti everything that doesn't agree with its retrograde views. That's what is being denounced. Don't tell me, you of all people Eljay, cannot understand this distinction.

Please, gve yourself a chance to read the comments again, this time form the 'spirit', instead of 'engaged' channel. No offence intended, but 'spirit' is what the missing ingredient from the 'fundie' mud.

And as far as I'm concerned, where there is no 'spirit', there is no presence of inspiring faith, or spirtual belief. All that is left, are manipulations, tactics, mind games and the whole bunch, but no spirit.

And hate to call you on a couple of 'fast ones' on your part, but where is this bit about silencing others come from!?!?!

I have never suggested any for of censorship. What are you trying to twist here. I denounce the most retrograde and aggressive tactics of fundamentalism.

I have said before and I'll say it agqain: if you need an analogy for this one, borrow from your the fundie view of 'Homosexuality', remember that one. Hate the 'sin', but reform and love the 'sinner'.

Same thing here. If I believed in 'sins', fundamentalism would be equivalent to a 'sinful' way of life. I simply consider it wrong and against the good nature of otherwise great people. I denounce fundamentalism, and I totally distinguish and love the great person, whom insists in convincing us that they are just plain fundamentalists!!!

Me trying to silence people?!?!? You are doing your 'aplologetics' circular faulty logic on the wrong guy Eljay.

Switch channels Eljay, switch channels!!!

Interference is not conducive to clear communications.

Again with much respect for you Eljay, and most absolutely without any intention to 'silence' you, rather the exact opposite.

I don’t know about Voil, but when I see threads entitled “creation versus evolution” I’m going to check them out.

As you say Eljay we all have our beliefs. It is my belief that the credibility of the old argument of ‘creation vs evolution” died a long time ago. It’s seriously beating a dead horse.

In fact, I even hesitate to use the word “belief”, because the evidence for evolution is so overwhelming and clear that it really isn’t even up for “belief’ anymore, it’s basically as well-established as any fact we know.

In fact, to denounce evolution basically requires denouncing everything that science knows up to this point because there is that much evidence for evolution! Every scientific area of study points in the same direction.

For example, measuring the age of the earth doesn’t have anything to do with evolution. The earth could be extremely old and that doesn’t suggest that evolution had to occur. It just coincidently happens to support evolution. Measuring the age of the earth is completely independent of evolution. Yet these people who want to denounce evolution feel compelled to denounce everything we know!!!

Dianna has been kind enough to supply TONS of information that supports the scientific observations. As far as I’m concerned she has already single-handily completely blown everything that Feral has suggested right out of the water.

I have taken the time in previous threads to deal with all of these issues in detail as well.

Like Dianna has stated in one of these many threads Feral started, “The information is out there for anyone who is seriously willing to become educated”



I completely agree with Sherrie.

This is ridiculous. It’s just an attempt to dumb-down America and the world!

Feral questions are all upside down! ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿

They look more like meat hooks to hang scientists on.

We now know where Feral’s prejudices lie.

Edited to add:
It has come to my attention that it is not polite to suggest that people lie. But it's ok to suggest that nothing they've posted is true.

The first is a personal attack. The second is adhering to the topic.

So let me just say that I haven't seen any truth in anything that has been posted against evolution in this entire thread.

I saw fish hooks, myself.

Then I saw meat hooks on your next line.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!


I love this debate.


Still central to this discussion, in my mind, is the polarity that presents itself in a peripheral observation about the viability of the divisive nature of acceptance of the possibility of man sharing a debt to apes while embracing God with thanksgiving for a wonderful life ; within the constraints of Christian thought.

Constraints : perceived and evident, there are alternatives. ?

Eljay,

I could be off, but I'll say this to you my friend.

I only see it one way:
the label is never the real thing.
We all wear labels.
There is a real human being behind all labels.
I'm interested in real human beings, not their labels.

A label is not a human being. It is at best a fair representation of a human being, at worst, a poor representation of a human being.

Much like the menu of a restaurant, the item described on the menu isn't the meal itself. And sometimes, when you order it, it is nothing like the 'label' said.

The label, is never the real thing. And that's fine.

It is a facade, a mask, a 'semblant' of human being. Labels have no soul, no spirit, no intelligence, and no 'being' as in, presence to life as it is.

We all wear labels. Whether we accept them or not, society will take care of slapping a label on each of us, and unless we find refuge in schizophrenia, we must deal with others labels.

Whether 'fundies', 'anti-fundie', Pantheist, Christian, Atheist, Satanist, whatever, ... not real!!! Labels!!! I'm interested in the person, the 'being' behind the label. The label has to drop at one point to allow the real thing to come through.

When that happens, when the labels drop, all that remains is an opprotunity for human beings to share the presence of 'spirit' which runs through us all. The only contaminant to 'spirit', is man's insistence in hanging on to their labels.

Drop the 'label' gloves Eljay, I don't believe 'fundies' exist. Only real 'feral', 'spider', et all, momentarily free of any labels, roles, or pretensions. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting them yet, but I trust it could take place.

I have faith!!! And I don't have to base it on evidence. If that were the case, I would have given up on 'spider' and 'feral'a while ago.


Reconsider Eljay! I am not whom you label as.

Voila!

In reading your latest post, i mused upon an apt reminder that gives a humorous depiction of your point, concerning intractabilities.

Many years ago, My cat produced a litter of which two found themselves part of the menagerie in our home.

One, I named Schizo.

Schizo would be asleep in the middle of the Living Room all to often and seemingly intent on the preference.

Invariably, Schizo would awaken from her slumber and dash madly up walls, around objects, wreaking havoc and generally destructively enccountering inanimate objects and leaving them , on ocassion, in disarray. Ad Infinitum.

And no, this is not a convenient opportunity to further label dear Feral!!

Once again another one that just plain would rather fight then read and answer accordingly....because had you read my very first post....this would not even be here......

Just as a reminder

First off I want to say that every message that I share with you, I support my ideas with scripture. The Bible to me is the infallible, inspired, inherent Word of the Living God. I believe each and every word from Genesis to Revelation, cover to cover. It is the owners manual for human beings-a must read. And one of my jobs as a Christian is to "Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks me a reason of the hope that is in us with meakness and fear." (1 PH 3:15)

Exactly the point I expresed to Eljay earlier :

ON the other hand, when a title of a thread ‘hides’ a distortion, a provocation, or a preposterous statement of affirmation disguised as a question, I enter the thread, and more often than not, cross paths with my ‘fundie’ friends.


:)

I want names. No team fundies, real names!!!

WHAT MAN ASKED YOU FOR THIS EVOLUTION VS 'CRATION', the series nothng less?!?!? Names 'feral'!!! The post wasn't,
"...Jo Blo asked me for hope as it relates to his confusion on the topic of 'Evolution and Creation'. Here is my answer to Jo Blo. Anyone else has an answer for Jo Blo ??!?!?!?!?

I must have missed what would have been a perfectly 'non-monopolistic' approach to expressing your views, perfectly in accordance with your "... one of your jobs as a Christian... be ready to answer if a man asks...".

The poblem is, you don't even respect your own fundamental rules. If you did, we wouldn't be adressing this perversion of rules.

Well actually Voil if you must know.....I was at church and pastor had been doing this series for about 2 months......I thought oh some of what he had to say was just amazing....especially all the stats when they took God out of everything. I prayed and prayed and then talked to pastor.....So if you must know the Lord asked me to do these posts. Now everyone in here is free to take it and run with it...with their opinions and their beliefs that was always what I wanted. But NO you all had to go on your usual fundie rants.....so there you have it.

Hmmmm... I don't believe that "I" called anyone any names...

I truly do admire your faith in your beliefs feral...

honestly...

Faith is very important, in my opinion, no matter what your beliefs are...

I harbor no hard feelings towards you... and my dialogue's direction of travel yesterday could have been better... my apologies...

That 'feral', or anyone else chose to express personnal beliefs, or share about personnal relation to god, or other spiritual phenomenons, has never been denounced by myself or anyone else on these forums.

Answer to Voile: ARE YOU JOKING.....Here are a few of your so called letting us have our personal beliefs or share our personal beliefs in god spiritual or any other..

1. Now seriously 'feral',

Stop this non-sense!!!

Just talk to us. Fire your mentors and gurus. Get rid of those Apologetics fundie sites. None of it is doing you justice.

Let the Spirit talk through YOUR heart, with YOUR words.

That's that will ever touch human souls.


2. Thanks to the texas sharpshooters, this 'fallacicus-circularis-logicus' debate over our origins, is over, and 'creationism is DEAD!!!

There will never a greater truism: LONG LIVE 'EVOLUTION' !!!

There will never a second greater (if ironic) truism: 'THANK GOD, CREATIONISM, AND BIBLE INERRANCY ARE DEAD!!!'


3. If you intend to relitivize or soft sell 'fundamentalism' to me as acceptable, it is a waste of your time. We can still talk about it in a civil manner, but we will keep agreeing to disagree. 'fundamentalism' gives Christianity a 'dirty name'.


Now these are just a few of the disrespect you have for what I and others believe....I could do a thread on how rude you all are with what are beliefs are. So please next time you write That 'feral', or anyone else chose to express personnal beliefs, or share about personnal relation to god, or other spiritual phenomenons, has never been denounced by myself or anyone else on these forums.