I've steared away from this part of the discussion specifically to see how it would develop and the same time examine my own bias pertaining to the "my people" issue.

Background: In the 70s I was completely empethetic to the plight of 'African Americans'. Keep in mind that in my youngest days everyone around me used words like negro and colored. Colored was suppose to be a better word becasue it reference 'people of color' rather than having any previous bad connotation. But in the 70s the PC term was 'African American'. I bought that term becasue it was a self-referntial designation and I wanted to be repectful.

I made several efforts to suggest ways that my high school could help the racial tensions that were so volitile. I was told by 'African American' group members, in not so nice terms, to stay out of it they didn't want any help from the white oppressors...

That kind of attitude IS part of the implicit racism that still exists today but that part exists not in the white institutions but in the black institutions. More recently I have noticed a huge reconcilition as Black Christian congregations have begun to unite with White Christian congregation to fight the prejudice and bigotries that exist on so many fronts today.

I think we are making advances in racial equality but we have to admit that the systemic racism that still exists, is not one-sided.

Additionally I would like to relate another, more recent, experience that continues to keep me thinking and self-evaluating. I made a move to the inner-city, not the up-town section either because the only things that keep me out of mordib poverty are living on student loans and a fabulout P/T job that provides me with health and dental insurance.

What I have witnessed and experience here is a melding of ethnicities. I have seen some of the most beautiful children with so many mixtures in their blood and so many kids and adults ignoring physical charachteristics. Black people can no longer be considred African American - not in my neck of the woods.

But that does not preclude some Black people from having the attitude that they are African American 'people' who have a heritage of slavery. That is a systemic part of continuing racism.

in what way was 'negro hatred of whites' justified,,,?

Eugene is a white hating bigot, no?

no

This is an excellent post...did I say that loud enough...EXCELLENT......!!! Thank you for posting "personal".....It's the best source....Based on my own personal experience, I feel your post is 100% correct...

do you believe it is inaccurate for black people to be AWARE That they are seen and TREATED As african americans who have a heritage of slavery?


the way that humsn born with breasts and a uterus become AWARE That they are seen and treated as what has been agreed to be called 'female'?

I dont see the problem with aknowledging that part of the reality of how many of us have come to be in America

or the reality of how most others are PERCEIVED and therefore TREATED As if they came to America as slaves...


its really a chicken or the egg dilemma

IF I stop considering myself as AFrican American because my ancestors arrived here on slave ships from Africa,,,will that stop me being considered an AFrican American by those who look at me and come to the conclusion that my history in America began there?

or is it that


if people can stop TREATING me and VIEWING Me as 'merely' someone whose ancestors arrived from AFrican on slave ships (notice I have no problem being recognized that way because it is TRUTH), I would then stop aknowledging that as my truth,,,?

and why should anyone start AVOIDING that truth?

its so much deeper than asthetics, and I Realise there is blending, but it is still true that in our culture the OUTSIDE APPEARANCE is what leads to much of the assumption and preconception about behavior and ability and value,,


assumptions and preconceptions which continue to fuel the SYSTEMIC discrimination we witness within the social , educational, judicial, and even healthcare institutions,,,

What people are doing that?
Do you have specific evidence that people are doing that?

being told I 'speak white', or that I dont 'act' like a black person,,,,,,


they thought I was 'merely' black,,,,,apparently being able to do 'non black' things makes me more acceptable to them,,,

Both of these links are talking about the same study on racism....Both are very short read...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390205/Whites-suffer-racism-blacks-Study-shows-white-people-believe-discriminated-against.html


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/03/new-study-finds-whites-in-america-suffer-more-racism-than-blacks/

there have been such studies for decades, and little has changed in regards to there being whites who feel they 'suffer' from discrimination

in lieu of the fact that they have continued to hold the majority of the wealth and power


even in the 1960s , when civil rights were still being hard fought for,, the majority of whites in 'studies' felt that blakcs didnt have it so bad,,,

this is not to say, that all americans dont experience some personal level of discrimination or bigotry in their life or that poverty or powerlessness are EXCLUSIVELY present only in the lives of black people,,,just that there is not the same collective SYSTEMIC result,,,

How ironic. Back in the '90s, I recall reading reports about black children being harassed by other black children because the former were striving for academic excellence and participating in activities that the latter considered to be "white" activities. In short, the latter black children were criticizing the former black children for "acting white".

In one particular case, a black girl was learning how to play the violin, and other black children harassed her because playing the violin is supposed to be a "white thing".

Oh gee. What I'm talking about is another form of "racism stuck between the teeth", except that I am talking about "racism stuck between the teeth" of people who are black.

Yes, as someone else has already said, racism is not one-sided.

I grew up in a racially-mixed neighborhood and attended racially-mixed schools. When I was in Cub Scouts, my house was where my Cub Scout Den met, and my Den was racially-mixed, having boys who were white, black and Native American.

While in school, I didn't think about "race". I treated all of my classmates the same, and they treated me the same.

All of that changed in 1977. One week without warning, my black classmates began shunning me.
I did not know why, because I could not think of anything that I had said or done to make them mad at me.

I finally asked one of them to tell me why they were shunning me.
The answer was this: They were all watching the TV mini-series Roots, and because I was white, they concluded that I was just like the white people in Roots.

In other words, my black classmates had stopped judging me according to the content of my character and had started judging me according to the color of my skin. It was the reverse of Dr. King's dream.
In short, I was the victim of racial discrimination.

About that same time, I heard a black student in my school loudly proclaim that it was permissible to steal from a store if the store had a white owner. Again racism was promoted.

There is something quite wrong with that study that the Daily Mail reported on. The last sentence in that news article says, "Citing several studies, researchers speculated that white people tended to see any focus on ethnic minorities as an 'attack' on white values."

White values? There is no set of values that are exclusively "white" values.

Besides the study talks about perceived anti-white racial discrimination, but does not cite any specific example of anti-white racial discrimination.

there is no debate that racist stereotypes and attitudes can exist in a person of ANY RACE

my interest is in the SYSTEMIC racism which may be contributing to the RACIAL DISCREPANCIES We see in institutions such as

justice
education
healthcare
socioeconomic status,,,

Loony Tune Eugene and Elijah Pajama.

Farrakhan reveals his Doomsday Machine!!


Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 3:31:28 PM by Roger-SD

Nation of Islam doctrine prophesies that a giant UFO, called The Wheel or the Mother Plane, will destroy the white man in their version of the end times. The idea is based on the wheel in the biblical book of Ezekiel and was inspired by Japanese science fiction movies.

Elijah Muhammad, the prophet of the Nation of Islam and Farrakhan's predecessor described the concept of the doomsday UFO in one of his books, "The Mother Plane," which is available on Amazon. Fard Muhammad, his co-founder may have had the original idea as far back as the 1920's.

The film, Independence Day, was loosely based on the end times scenario of the Nation of Islam, only the white man is allowed to survive in the Hollywood version, in order to give the film better marketability.

Obama's Black Liberation Theology is an offshoot of the NOI theology. It is based on the kill-whitey racial concept of the NOI, but does not include the doomsday UFO concept, as far as we know from their public literature, at least. Both doctrines hold that the white man is the ultimate evil of the world (Devil) and the black race is divine (God). A black messiah will led the destruction of the white race in the end times.

Farrakhan says that he had an out-of-body experience, while worshiping at the temple of the Aztec green plumed serpent god, Quetzalcoatl, in which he was abducted by the UFO and received at that time a vital message from the NOI founder, which saved Libya Leader, Gadhafi form an American attack.

..............................................................

That Farrakhan and A’jad should find common ground cannot be a good thing, especially when the Farrakhan linkages to the current occupant of the White House are acknowledged. The Obamas’ long-time pastor, Jeremiah Wright, not only enjoyed a close relationship with Louis Farrakhan, but even accompanied him on a 1984 trip to visit Libya’s Muammar Qaddafi.

Farakkhan has some crazy ideas , he is nearly 80. I believe he has an amazing mind and alot can be learned from him. I dont begrudge anyone for having a 'relationship' with him.


BLT and NOI information was previously posted,,,including how the BLT and NOI were originally at odds for their DIFFERENCES,,,,

Here is an example of the same thing.
From ABC News, 31 January 2007:

I remember that

Yes. Why is it that we have to reference people of color as African Americans? How many generations have to be born here before people assume a national identity?

Secondly, there has been so much intermingling of ethnicities in the United States that we have blue eyed black people and nappy haired white people – who claim to be African American and any of those people may have grown up speaking Spanish, Mexican, or Portugeuse… in their home.

So in the context of the quote above, we might assume that the term African American is not a source of pride but rather a self-imposed ‘Scarlet Letter’ that has been embroidered into the fabric of a sub-culture who uses the term as a blanket excuse to (as the OP title suggests) use the ‘race card’.



As stated earlier in the thread, gender bias is vastly different from racism so the comparison between gender awareness and African American awareness is absurd.



What of all the people who voluntarily migrated from various African states who have become American citizens – are they African Americans? How would you suggest they self-reference? What is it about the term ‘African American’ that applies to some and not others?

My answer would be sub-cultural enculturation rather than any direct link to a family history of slavery.



I think you mean how those who adhere to the sub-cultural concept of “my people the African Americans” perceive their own lack of power to control their lives as being attributed to being treated as if they came here as slaves. That perception is handed down through their sub-cultural roots in BOTH implicit and systematic ways – not unlike ‘some’ of the actual discrimination that they may face.



The question has been asked – Can you relate any personal instances of suffering from implicit or systematic racism. That’s a REALLY important question because when people assume that they lack internal control to rise above their situation, they naturally blame external opposition. Such opposition is well documented in some areas like, criminal prosecution (or persecution) but is it less documented in other areas because it only exists as a misguided cultural perception?



One person’s truth can only apply to that one person. When an individual assumes or accepts the role of the oppressed, that a person will perceive their own lack of internal control as being suppressed by external forces. Why do you think you are oppressed? What specific incidents of implicit or systematic racism have led to your oppression? No answer is required, just questions to make you think.

Could it be that, like me, if you cannot work to resolve racism from within ‘the group’, that you are simply one of the white oppressors? In other words, if you are not part of the ‘in-group’ then you are part of the ‘out-group’ and you must give up the right to wear the scarlet letter. What affect would that have on how you view your geneology?



I believe that the assumption being made about physical characteristics may have been accurate in the past, but it no longer serves as an adequate reason for the claim of discrimination.

Have you ever heard the phrase: “it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then to speak and remove all doubt” ? In many cases verbal communication, behaviors, and attitude are more important factors that can lead an individual to believe he or she has been the victim of racism. Unfortunately, we tend to stereotype groups of people with similar characteristic and personal attributes. There is no doubt that part of the perceived victimization stems from the individuals own sub-cultural norms.

If retaining the history of one’s heritage requires adhering to sub-cultural norms, attitudes, and beliefs, without incorporating the more normative attitudes and beliefs of the primary culture then what will occur is self-inflicted segregation. Terms, like African American tend to be one of the structural components of said segregation.



(social) There is definitely systemic social discrimination, I know from personal experiences, that it is much harder for White people to access social assistance programs than it is for minorities and there are far less of such programs available to Whites. (probably not the association you were looking for but it’s another side of the coin)

(educational) Our entire educational system has failed in many ways, one is a lack of funding in the poorer areas where families are not able to pay more taxes, or contribute financial support for programs in their local schools. Another is the failing of parents and the lack of parenting skills combined with the perpetuation of sub-cultural beliefs which become the excuses for behaviors that are associated with a stereotypical view of a group. Perceived discrimination often follows (that’s why it’s systemic, it thrives in systematic ways).

(healthcare institutions) There are some issues within healthcare that tend to be associated with racism, and some are but often they are the innocent types of discrimination. When a patient has no health care insurance or only minimal benefits, many health care professionals offer less treatment options or lower cost options with the knowledge that even those may not be affordable for their patients. But there are so many other barriers that prevent proper care and a portion of them are due to sub-cultural beliefs and norms. It should be noted here that no single minority corners the market on lower levels of health care and we also have to recognize that much the healthcare concerns deal with gender disparity rather that racism.

(judicial – is well documented form of the racism as has been discussed. There have been many suggestions for corrective measures and the issues continue to be studied and attempts have been made to correct some problems, but it’s an issue that is multi-dimensional and will require huge structural changes which will be costly to states and localities. The greater the cost and the more intrusive the fix the harder it is to get put into place. Not a good excuse but an excuse that implicates a wider systemic problem, lack of motivation to force these changes by the white majority who are least affected by the issue.

One last ‘thinking out loud’ comment:
Could it be that keeping the label (African American) is part of keeping the excuse for perpetuating a sub-cultural attitude?
“I’m African American, my schools are bad, I’m discriminated against, I’m oppressed.”
The idea that only African Americans, whose outward physical attributes do not neatly fit into a single category, live in poverty, attend terrible school districts, lack quality healthcare and are deprived of equal opportunity to succeed - has been dispelled.

If a person claims that discrimination prevented a chosen course of action but the individual goes on to achieve or surpass the target goal, than we cannot necessarily consider the original claim of discrimination as attributed to systemic racism. That type of situation and claim are very often mistaken to be systemic racism when the case was isolated to the prejudice of another individual. You know – like in the constant claim that not all Christians believe and act like every other Christian.

Thanks for the supportive response. I continue to assess my own biases with every report and study I read about discrimination. It's a topic that involves so many dimensions, it's hard not to evolve with so much input from so many different perspectives.

msharmony, I am trying to support your argument about systemic racism (which is why I quoted Dr. Walter Williams) and about viewing a black person as 'merely' someone whose ancestors arrived from African on slave ships (which is why I mentioned Joe Biden's statement about Barack Obama).

There is more to racism than perhaps you realize.

For example, people usually have to meet certain standards in order to obtain admission into a college.

Now, if the admission standard is lower for black applicants than it is for white applicants, then the admission policy reflects a belief that blacks are less able to meet the higher standard than whites are. Such an admission policy belittles the capability of blacks.

When the late NBA member Wayman Tisdale was admitted into the University of Oklahoma in 1982, he wasn't admitted just because he was a good basketball player. He was admitted because he demonstrated academic excellence while in high school. He showed that he could meet the same admission standard that white OU applicants had to meet.

Racism rears its ugly head whenever the Academy Awards (the Oscars) take place. I don't remember which year it was, but I remember that one year, black members of the Screen Actors Guild protested the way that Oscars were awarded because it was very rare for a black actor or actress to receive an Oscar. Oscar winner Sidney Poitier was quite vocal in his complaint that racism played a role in the selection of Oscar winners. Halle Berry also complained about racism. I believed the complaints because, at that time, Morgan Freeman had never won an Oscar. IMHO he is one of the best movie actors ever.