Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: Is "Free Will" a sin?
AdventureBegins Joined Tue 04/10/07 Posts: 7666	Tue 02/21/12 10:23 PM
"You see a blue and a red pill. ..but ultimately.. Both pills have the same affect. " and so you have four choices for the exercise of free will. Take blue. Take red. Take all. Take none...

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 10:37 PM
"You see a blue and a red pill. ..but ultimately.. Both pills have the same affect. " and so you have four choices for the exercise of free will. Take blue. Take red. Take all. Take none... ..but the choices don't matter. Blue and red, have the same exact effect.. Nothing. So not taking them, is the same as taking them. Thus, the visage of 'choice'.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 10:38 PM
No they did not know right from wrong, this much is true. But nevertheless they could have still be tempted. They could not have been tempted to do "evil" specifically. But they could have been tempted to do something they were told not to. Tempt - Have an urge or inclination to do something So if they knew right from wrong is irrelevant to being tempted. No they could not have been tempted to do "evil", for they did not know what "evil" was. But nevertheless they could have been "urged" to do something, or "enticed" to do it. ..and you believe a 'just' God would condemn you for doing said choice?

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 02/21/12 10:50 PM Edited by MorningSong on Tue 02/21/12 10:51 PM
God did not send His Son to Condemn the World but to Save the World.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 11:53 PM
God did not send His Son to Condemn the World but to Save the World. I'm not even remotely referencing the Son. Not even close. We's be talking bout dat Adam dood. However, now that you mention it. IF, this theory that we just expressed IS true. Meaning: God set this entire Garden banishment issue up from the get-go. Ultimately, it was HIS fault he even HAD to send his Son. So, therefore, it wouldn't be for our sins, but his own mistake. ..just saying.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Wed 02/22/12 01:23 AM
The sin was the sin of disobedience.... Sin separated man from God... BUT even IF we did try to obey God, it still would NOT Please God...IF we did not first accept the One God sent....His Son. Because our trying to obey God on our own would be just dead religious works to God.....and all our righteous works trying to earn our way to God , are as filthy rags to God. God wants us to accept his Son JESUS..THAT is what God wants. Again...without first accepting His Son,our trying to obey God is nothing more than DEAD religious works to God.....nothing more.... God isn't interested in our dead religious works..not one bit.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Wed 02/22/12 01:36 AM
The sin was the sin of disobedience.... Sin separated man from God... BUT even IF we did try to obey God, it still would NOT Please God...IF we did not first accept the One God sent....His Son. Because our trying to obey God on our own would be just dead religious works to God.....and all our righteous works trying to earn our way to God , are as filthy rags to God. God wants us to accept his Son JESUS..THAT is what God wants. Again...without first accepting His Son,our trying to obey God is nothing more than DEAD religious works to God.....nothing more.... God isn't interested in our dead religious works..not one bit. Morning Song.. Tell me something. What do you define sin as? Not the list of acts, but sin itself.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Wed 02/22/12 02:26 AM Edited by MorningSong on Wed 02/22/12 02:28 AM
Sin is what separates us from God..... But by accepting the Mediator ,Christ Jesus( who already bore our sins and paid the price for our sins in full ) ,we are no longer separated from God ....but are brought back into right relationship with God once more..and our spirit is born again.. we become new creatures in Christ Jesus...with a new nature in us...new life...new found hope...life everlasting....new meaning....spirtusl eyes opened...fulfilment...no more emptiness and meanngless in life.... Jesus fills that emptiness inside....and only Jesus can.... Jesus is The answer the whole world is looking for...and they don't even know it...but they need to know.... only Jesus can fill the hole in every man's soul

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Wed 02/22/12 02:27 AM
Sin is what separates us from God..... But by accepting the Mediator ,Christ Jesus( who alresdy bore our sins and paid the price for our sins in full ) ,we are no longer separated from God ....but are brought back into relationship with God once more..and our spirit is born again..and we become new creatures in Christ Jesus...with a new nature in us...new life...new found hope...life everlasting....new meaning....spirtusl eyes opened...fulfilment...no more emptiness and meanngless in life.... Jesus fills that emptiness inside....and only Jesus can.... Jesus is The answer the whole world is looking for...and they don't even know it...but they need to know.... only Jesus can fill the hole in every man's soul ..that was the longest non-answer ever.. :O

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 02/22/12 07:18 AM
I have rethought this question. By definition of sin, yea, free will is sin in the Christian religion. As long as you make a choice that goes with Christianity then it is disguised as free will but once you make a choice not in line with Christianity it is sin. So yea free will is sin in one sense. My issue lies in that misconception. They keep telling me that it is free will, that was their sin. But it wasn't. Nor was Eve 'tempted' even in the slightest. That is a blatant and overlooked lie. To be tempted, as I've stated over and over. You need to know one thing; that the course of action you are about to engage in, is in fact wrong (evil). Eve, nor Adam, knew right from wrong. Therefore, you cannot be tempted, if you don't have the basic concept. Sure, they did what God told them not to. BUT. That doesn't mean they had any knowledge of what actual consequences existed if they actually partaken in by eating from the tree. Therefore, it was their own obliviousness if anything, which would ultimately be God's fault, that resulted in them eating in the tree. If you don't know that the snake is evil, why not listen to him? That ideal in itself makes absolutely no sense. So, to say that was free-will, is redundant and useless, because it wasn't. If you put a bottle of cyanide near a toddler and say: "You can play with anything in this room but don't drink or touch this bottle." Wtf do you think it's going to do the very second you leave the room? Adam and Eve were no different. You can say they 'had' intelligence, but seriously, how much of a dumb*** do you have to be to not recognize you are even naked? Seriously, common sense. They not only gained the concept of Good and Evil when they ate from the tree, but apparently were far smarter now. Evidence lies in the fact that almost instantly, Adam tried to blame the woman for his eating from the tree and, in a nonchalant way, even blamed God for giving this woman to him. Eve, of course, blamed the cursed serpent. However. When I asked why God even bothered putting this tree in the garden, I was told it was because he 'knew man would fail'. That means that every course of action that took place after, was in fact, God's 'will', not any one, throughout history's, free-will. That said, Biblically, free-will is a complete and blatant fabrication and is just a simple myth. However cruel, evil, dark, or dumb this 'plan' is in our eyes; it is providing my claim that IF God truly does have a plan for us; it was resourced from the beginning and, in the end, we are all exactly where we are supposed to be. I'm supposed to be here, ranting this post right now. Jeannie's wherever she is. Morning Song is going to come in and type some blue stuff.. ..Cowboy will do his thing. No matter what it is, from tying your shoes, to drinking your coffee in the morning; to the things we debate over, to the things we do without thinking; is already a set predetermined course of action. You think and perceive such as free, but ultimately, the choice is already been made for you. You see a blue and a red pill. ..but ultimately.. Both pills have the same affect. Eve, nor Adam, knew right from wrong. Therefore, you cannot be tempted, if you don't have the basic concept. No they did not know right from wrong, this much is true. But nevertheless they could have still be tempted. They could not have been tempted to do "evil" specifically. But they could have been tempted to do something they were told not to. Tempt - Have an urge or inclination to do something So if they knew right from wrong is irrelevant to being tempted. No they could not have been tempted to do "evil", for they did not know what "evil" was. But nevertheless they could have been "urged" to do something, or "enticed" to do it. Sin-and Sorrow. You made me laugh. Cowboy, I guess God wanted Adam and Eve to just be dumb obedient children for eternity then, not know right from wrong, not thinking for themselves, not making any of their own decisions. God just wanted them to be obedient child-like creatures screwing each other to create children for the world. If that had happened, then all the people and all the children of Adam and Eve would be dumb childlike obedient children. Oh goody. What a wonderful world that would be. NOT.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 02/22/12 07:20 AM
Sin is what separates us from God..... But by accepting the Mediator ,Christ Jesus( who alresdy bore our sins and paid the price for our sins in full ) ,we are no longer separated from God ....but are brought back into relationship with God once more..and our spirit is born again..and we become new creatures in Christ Jesus...with a new nature in us...new life...new found hope...life everlasting....new meaning....spirtusl eyes opened...fulfilment...no more emptiness and meanngless in life.... Jesus fills that emptiness inside....and only Jesus can.... Jesus is The answer the whole world is looking for...and they don't even know it...but they need to know.... only Jesus can fill the hole in every man's soul ..that was the longest non-answer ever.. :O That's typical Morningsong "blue stuff."

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 02/22/12 07:28 AM Edited by Jeanniebean on Wed 02/22/12 07:29 AM
Sin is, according to religion, DISOBEDIENCE OF GOD. God wants his children, the humans of the earth to obey without question. He does not want them to think for themselves. He wants obedience without question. You must obey or be destroyed. Is that too much to ask? So religion's job is to search the dusty scriptures in search of God's commands and try to figure out what we humans are supposed to do and not do or think and not think. The scripture even tells us that if we even THINK of committing adultery, then it is the same as if we committed adultery and we have sinned. Throw yourself upon the mercy of God if you think of getting a divorce or screwing your neighbor's wife. Don't dare think of committing a sin. God wants to control our thoughts and our actions according to church doctrine. Well, frankly, I don't believe one word of that nonsense. I will be free. This is what I am designed for. I am designed to be conscious, to think and to decide. Freedom is paramount. The will is ALWAYS COMPLETELY FREE. Don't let any tell you otherwise with stories about obeying some deity beyond the clouds.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Wed 02/22/12 07:38 AM
Imagine for a moment a perfect world with no sin. Adam and Eve are like children here they have no concept of evil, or wrong, everything is correct, perfect, and right. God is the parent, it is his responsibility to watch out for these innocent beings who do not understand. In what way is it ok for this being who does understand to place a dangerous object in the play pin? If you blame the devil, then in what way is god as an all knowing, all powerful being still not responsible for allowing it? God is a bad guy in the Christian religion, not something worthy of worship. YOU are more moral than the god of the Abraham religions.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 02/22/12 07:44 AM
Imagine for a moment a perfect world with no sin. Adam and Eve are like children here they have no concept of evil, or wrong, everything is correct, perfect, and right. God is the parent, it is his responsibility to watch out for these innocent beings who do not understand. In what way is it ok for this being who does understand to place a dangerous object in the play pin? If you blame the devil, then in what way is god as an all knowing, all powerful being still not responsible for allowing it? God is a bad guy in the Christian religion, not something worthy of worship. YOU are more moral than the god of the Abraham religions. who's to say Satan tempting Adam and Eve wasn't part of God's plan? Who's to say we were suppose to stay in the Garden?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 02/22/12 07:44 AM
Imagine for a moment a perfect world with no sin. Adam and Eve are like children here they have no concept of evil, or wrong, everything is correct, perfect, and right. God is the parent, it is his responsibility to watch out for these innocent beings who do not understand. In what way is it ok for this being who does understand to place a dangerous object in the play pin? If you blame the devil, then in what way is god as an all knowing, all powerful being still not responsible for allowing it? God is a bad guy in the Christian religion, not something worthy of worship. YOU are more moral than the god of the Abraham religions. Not to mention he was a bad parent.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Wed 02/22/12 07:46 AM
who's to say Satan tempting Adam and Eve wasn't part of God's plan? I am saying exactly this, and this is exactly what makes him a manipulative trickster god who wants suffering and enjoys torment.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 02/22/12 07:46 AM
Imagine for a moment a perfect world with no sin. Adam and Eve are like children here they have no concept of evil, or wrong, everything is correct, perfect, and right. God is the parent, it is his responsibility to watch out for these innocent beings who do not understand. In what way is it ok for this being who does understand to place a dangerous object in the play pin? If you blame the devil, then in what way is god as an all knowing, all powerful being still not responsible for allowing it? God is a bad guy in the Christian religion, not something worthy of worship. YOU are more moral than the god of the Abraham religions. Not to mention he was a bad parent. Why would he be a bad parent? elaborate on that please.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 02/22/12 07:47 AM
Imagine for a moment a perfect world with no sin. Adam and Eve are like children here they have no concept of evil, or wrong, everything is correct, perfect, and right. God is the parent, it is his responsibility to watch out for these innocent beings who do not understand. In what way is it ok for this being who does understand to place a dangerous object in the play pin? If you blame the devil, then in what way is god as an all knowing, all powerful being still not responsible for allowing it? God is a bad guy in the Christian religion, not something worthy of worship. YOU are more moral than the god of the Abraham religions. who's to say Satan tempting Adam and Eve wasn't part of God's plan? Who's to say we were suppose to stay in the Garden? The Bible said it. Adam and Eve were originally supposed to stay in the Garden. But as it turned out, they were a little more conscious than God intended. They were conscious enough to think and use their judgement. They were conscious enough and innocent enough to disobey. When things go wrong and you defend it by saying that it may have been "God's plan all along" you are shedding a bad light on God. What kind of evil being would just play games like that? It is not honest or nice.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 02/22/12 07:48 AM
who's to say Satan tempting Adam and Eve wasn't part of God's plan? I am saying exactly this, and this is exactly what makes him a manipulative trickster god who wants suffering and enjoys torment. No, doesn't mean that. And is why God has given us a way to redeem ourselves and enter back into the paradise. To know good, one must first know bad. If one doesn't know "bad" one would take the good for granted, they would be "spoiled" so to speak.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 02/22/12 07:50 AM
Imagine for a moment a perfect world with no sin. Adam and Eve are like children here they have no concept of evil, or wrong, everything is correct, perfect, and right. God is the parent, it is his responsibility to watch out for these innocent beings who do not understand. In what way is it ok for this being who does understand to place a dangerous object in the play pin? If you blame the devil, then in what way is god as an all knowing, all powerful being still not responsible for allowing it? God is a bad guy in the Christian religion, not something worthy of worship. YOU are more moral than the god of the Abraham religions. Not to mention he was a bad parent. Why would he be a bad parent? elaborate on that please. I can't believe you can't see it. He places a tree in the Garden and draws their attention to it and tells them not to eat of it. I know you are not a parent, but try that with your own children and they will do exactly what you told them not to do. Also, if God is all knowing why would he let the Naga serpent man into the garden to do who knows what to his innocent children? Isn't he watching his children?