Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: Is "Free Will" a sin?
MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 02/21/12 05:24 PM
GOD IS ETERNAL..OUTSIDE OF TIME..... BECAUSE GOD IS ETERNAL... GOD ALREADY KNOWS THE END FROM THE BEGINNIG AND THE BEGINNING FROM THE END....

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Tue 02/21/12 05:26 PM
We are all outside of time because time does not actually exist. The only thing that causes events to appear to move in one direction is the law of cause and effect. Not time.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 02/21/12 05:33 PM
To say that there is a God that knows what everyone will do before they do it, is to say that the universe is predetermined. If the universe is predetermined, there is no point in doing or deciding anything. You are just a machine following programming. Ridiculous. No Jeannie.....not predetermined...God just KNOWS...yet it does not affect our free will choice......it is just that God already knows what our choices will be.... It is a hard to grasp , I understand...it is beyond human understanding to fully grasp it all......but we will understand it better when we enter into eternity... In eternity, time is no more.... Time is limited to our earth existence only ... again....time will be no more for us when we leave this earth....and enter into eternity

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Tue 02/21/12 05:36 PM
That's an interesting idea but I don't think there is any evidence to support it. Tell me how "physics" supports that claim. Spacetime Einstein wrote... Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence. Einstein wrote... ...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 05:41 PM
God KNOWS all things... but God does not PREDESTINE all things to happen.... in other words, God does not presdestine what we will do with our free will..God just already KNOWS what we will do with our free will. Again....GOD KNOWS ALL THINGS ... Let's not underestimate or limit what God is able to do..... by trying to bring God down to our level of human understanding.. God's Ways are FAR ABOVE our ways ....and HIS Understanding is FAR ABOVE our understanding.... our free will..God just already KNOWS what we will do with our free will. Sorry MorningSong, but this is absolutely wrong. If God knew every action you will take in your life, there would be no need for it. You would be created and in the same minute judged, for every action you will take was known. God would not waste time with allowing us to live our lives out if he already knew, why waste the time? Why sit back and watch people and it be like a rerun or a movie you've already seen?

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 05:44 PM
To say that there is a God that knows what everyone will do before they do it, is to say that the universe is predetermined. If the universe is predetermined, there is no point in doing or deciding anything. You are just a machine following programming. Ridiculous. No Jeannie.....not predetermined...God just KNOWS...yet it does not affect our free will choice......it is just that God already knows what our choices will be.... It is a hard to grasp , I understand...it is beyond human understanding to fully grasp it all......but we will understand it better when we enter into eternity... In eternity, time is no more.... Time is limited to our earth existence only ... again....time will be no more for us when we leave this earth....and enter into eternity No Jeannie.....not predetermined...God just KNOWS...yet it does not affect our free will choice......it is just that God already knows what our choices will be Again, then life would be pointless, meaningless. Our lives are a chance at returning to the paradise. If God knew what we would do from the day we were born, to the day we died, there would be absolutely no need to allow us to live it out. For instance, if God knew someone was going to grow up to be a mass murderer and kill millions of innocent people. Why then would he create that being? Why would he bring his children into such harm? He wouldn't.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 02/21/12 05:46 PM
Don't limit or underestimate God, Cowboy. Cause that is what you are doing. You are trying to bring God DOWN to YOUR limited human level of understanding...

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 05:48 PM
Don't limit or underestimate God, Cowboy. Cause that is what you are doing. You are trying to bring God DOWN to YOUR limited human level of understanding... No I am not, just teaching what the scriptures say. If God knew every step you'll take before you took it, how then are we "judged"? Why then do we live out our lives? Why would God create someone(s) when he knew they were going to grow up and be a mass murderer? If God knew our actions before we were created, why then would he create evil people?

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Tue 02/21/12 05:50 PM
We are all outside of time because time does not actually exist. The only thing that causes events to appear to move in one direction is the law of cause and effect. Not time. Time is what allows cause and effect. Time is what allows change.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 05:50 PM
Don't limit or underestimate God, Cowboy. Cause that is what you are doing. You are trying to bring God DOWN to YOUR limited human level of understanding... No I am not, just teaching what the scriptures say. If God knew every step you'll take before you took it, how then are we "judged"? Why then do we live out our lives? Why would God create someone(s) when he knew they were going to grow up and be a mass murderer? If God knew our actions before we were created, why then would he create evil people? And would you please enlighten these verse(s) that state God knows every action we will take through our lives before we do them.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Tue 02/21/12 05:52 PM
Don't limit or underestimate God, Cowboy. Cause that is what you are doing. You are trying to bring God DOWN to YOUR limited human level of understanding... No I am not, just teaching what the scriptures say. If God knew every step you'll take before you took it, how then are we "judged"? Why then do we live out our lives? Why would God create someone(s) when he knew they were going to grow up and be a mass murderer? If God knew our actions before we were created, why then would he create evil people? Cowboy, we exist and live our lives, because we must in order for God to know what we will do. God ONLY KNOWS THINGS WHICH ARE TRUE. If you never lived, then anything God knew about your life would be a lie.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 05:56 PM
Sorry MorningSong, but this is absolutely wrong. If God knew every action you will take in your life, there would be no need for it. You would be created and in the same minute judged, for every action you will take was known. God would not waste time with allowing us to live our lives out if he already knew, why waste the time? Why sit back and watch people and it be like a rerun or a movie you've already seen? This goes hand-in-hand with my issue. It makes no sense and the concept of 'final judgment' is completely and total BS. Who, then, should be the judge of God? For he would be thee single greatest of sinner against his own Words. Don't tell me that if I see a person suffering I am 'obligated' to help that person. Meanwhile, you have the ability to predict the Holocaust and other acts of genocide and war while you sit back idly and do absolutely nothing. The concept defies his own lessons. Either we have free-will and God has no plan and Destiny is just half of Beyonce's vocal group. ..or.. Free-will is a myth and everything is already preordained to happen the way it happens; and all evil actions are just a way to keep the masses population in check.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 05:56 PM
Don't limit or underestimate God, Cowboy. Cause that is what you are doing. You are trying to bring God DOWN to YOUR limited human level of understanding... No I am not, just teaching what the scriptures say. If God knew every step you'll take before you took it, how then are we "judged"? Why then do we live out our lives? Why would God create someone(s) when he knew they were going to grow up and be a mass murderer? If God knew our actions before we were created, why then would he create evil people? Cowboy, we exist and live our lives, because we must in order for God to know what we will do. God ONLY KNOWS THINGS WHICH ARE TRUE. If you never lived, then anything God knew about your life would be a lie. First, if God already knows what we will do, there would be no point in doing them. Why waste time and prolong the plan God has? If God already know's exactly every action you'll ever take, how then is it a "judgement". For it would be a sentencing, there would be no "defending" yourself, for God would have known you were going to do them before it even happened. And you say - "God only knows things which are true". This statement is true, but God know's the lies someone(s) has said or done as well, even lying to God, or well trying to lol. God know's all, not limited to things that are just true or false or anything, bottom line is God knows all.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 06:01 PM Edited by CowboyGH on Tue 02/21/12 06:08 PM
Sorry MorningSong, but this is absolutely wrong. If God knew every action you will take in your life, there would be no need for it. You would be created and in the same minute judged, for every action you will take was known. God would not waste time with allowing us to live our lives out if he already knew, why waste the time? Why sit back and watch people and it be like a rerun or a movie you've already seen? This goes hand-in-hand with my issue. It makes no sense and the concept of 'final judgment' is completely and total BS. Who, then, should be the judge of God? For he would be thee single greatest of sinner against his own Words. Don't tell me that if I see a person suffering I am 'obligated' to help that person. Meanwhile, you have the ability to predict the Holocaust and other acts of genocide and war while you sit back idly and do absolutely nothing. The concept defies his own lessons. Either we have free-will and God has no plan and Destiny is just half of Beyonce's vocal group. ..or.. Free-will is a myth and everything is already preordained to happen the way it happens; and all evil actions are just a way to keep the masses population in check. Who, then, should be the judge of God? For he would be thee single greatest of sinner against his own Words. There is none righteous enough to judge God. God needs no judgement nor is a sinner. "Sin" is going against God's will, his wishes. So how exactly could God "sin"? Please enlighten us with this "sin" God has done. Meanwhile, you have the ability to predict the Holocaust and other acts of genocide and war while you sit back idly and do absolutely nothing. If God would have done something, he would have been intervening. You're looking at it from a secular point of mind. Yes in the genocide these people had to suffer great pain. But that is only for a very short time in comparison to eternity. God allowing the genocides to occur hurt really no one, but the one's doing the genocide. But if God would have stopped or interfered, he would have been refuting someone(s) free will.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Tue 02/21/12 06:04 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Tue 02/21/12 06:09 PM
We are all outside of time because time does not actually exist. The only thing that causes events to appear to move in one direction is the law of cause and effect. Not time. Time is what allows cause and effect. Time is what allows change. Wrong. Time does not exist. (ONLY NOW -- this present, allows for things to exist) Cause is what allows change. First cause is consciousness and the will to be. If time moved forward then according to physics it should also move backward. It does not. Only cause and effect moves in a single direction.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Tue 02/21/12 06:08 PM
That's an interesting idea but I don't think there is any evidence to support it. Tell me how "physics" supports that claim. Einstein wrote... ...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one. Spider, The statement above proves that Einstein knew that time does not exist. Only Now the present moment exists. "the separation between past, present and future is an illusion." can you not read?

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Tue 02/21/12 06:09 PM
First, if God already knows what we will do, there would be no point in doing them. Why waste time and prolong the plan God has? If God already know's exactly every action you'll ever take, how then is it a "judgement". For it would be a sentencing, there would be no "defending" yourself, for God would have known you were going to do them before it even happened. And you say - "God only knows things which are true". This statement is true, but God know's the lies someone(s) has said or done as well, even lying to God, or well trying to lol. God know's all, not limited to things that are just true or false or anything, bottom line is God knows all. God only knows the things you are going to do, because you are going to do them. This isn't an easy concept. It's one you are going to have to really think about to understand.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Tue 02/21/12 06:10 PM
First, if God already knows what we will do, there would be no point in doing them. Why waste time and prolong the plan God has? If God already know's exactly every action you'll ever take, how then is it a "judgement". For it would be a sentencing, there would be no "defending" yourself, for God would have known you were going to do them before it even happened. And you say - "God only knows things which are true". This statement is true, but God know's the lies someone(s) has said or done as well, even lying to God, or well trying to lol. God know's all, not limited to things that are just true or false or anything, bottom line is God knows all. God only knows the things you are going to do, because you are going to do them. This isn't an easy concept. It's one you are going to have to really think about to understand. There is no way to "understand" a false statement. It is not an "easy" concept because it is an impossible concept.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 06:11 PM
First, if God already knows what we will do, there would be no point in doing them. Why waste time and prolong the plan God has? If God already know's exactly every action you'll ever take, how then is it a "judgement". For it would be a sentencing, there would be no "defending" yourself, for God would have known you were going to do them before it even happened. And you say - "God only knows things which are true". This statement is true, but God know's the lies someone(s) has said or done as well, even lying to God, or well trying to lol. God know's all, not limited to things that are just true or false or anything, bottom line is God knows all. God only knows the things you are going to do, because you are going to do them. This isn't an easy concept. It's one you are going to have to really think about to understand. Answer me this and you will open my eyes to what you are saying. If God knows every step, every movement, every choice we'll EVER make through our lives before we do them, why then is there a "judgement"? And why do we live out our lives then. Why waste the time? Why not create us, judge us, and reward us all in the same minute?

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Tue 02/21/12 06:14 PM
Einstein wrote... ...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one. Spider, The statement above proves that Einstein knew that time does not exist. Only Now the present moment exists. "the separation between past, present and future is an illusion." can you not read? Oh, I can read, although I sometimes wish I couldn't. What Einstein is saying is that space and time are the same thing. Think of the words "Here" and "There". Is there a specific place that is always called "here" or is it the term used to designate your current position in space? We both know the answer. Einstein's point was that time is an illusion. That when you lose a loved one, they are still so close you can almost touch them and they you. It's just the fact that we can't chose to move through time like we can through space that makes past, present and future seem to be real. Einstein wasn't questioning the existence of time, he was pointing out our faulty perception of time. I'm not going to argue this with you guys anymore. I've said my piece and it's right here if you want to understand.