Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: Is "Free Will" a sin?
MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 02/21/12 06:20 PM Edited by MorningSong on Tue 02/21/12 06:21 PM
Don't limit or underestimate God, Cowboy. Cause that is what you are doing. You are trying to bring God DOWN to YOUR limited human level of understanding... No I am not, just teaching what the scriptures say. If God knew every step you'll take before you took it, how then are we "judged"? Why then do we live out our lives? Why would God create someone(s) when he knew they were going to grow up and be a mass murderer? If God knew our actions before we were created, why then would he create evil people? Jeremiah 1:5 BEFORE I FORMED you in the womb I KNEW you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations. ..... Galatians 1:15 But when God, Who SET ME APART FROM BIRTH and CALLED ME BY HIS GRACE, was pleased ...... Psalm 139:15 My frame was NOT HIDDEN FROM YOU when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Psalm 139:16 your eyes SAW MY UNFORMED BODY . All the days ordained for me were written in your book BEOFRE one of them CAME TO BE. .......... Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: BEFORE I was BORN the LORD called me; FROM MY BIRTH He has made mention of my name. ............ Isaiah 49:5 And now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength- .................. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD." KJV

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Tue 02/21/12 06:21 PM
Answer me this and you will open my eyes to what you are saying. If God knows every step, every movement, every choice we'll EVER make through our lives before we do them, why then is there a "judgement"? And why do we live out our lives then. Why waste the time? Why not create us, judge us, and reward us all in the same minute? This will have to be my last post on this. God is timeless. Therefore, a billion years to God is nothing. 10 billion years is nothing. God doesn't see it as wasted time, because time isn't a resource or limitation to God. But that's not the point. Here is what you have to understand. God knows what you will do, because you will do it. In other words, if you didn't live your life, God wouldn't know what you would do. You have to LIVE in order for God to know what you are going to do. He doesn't have some mystical knowledge, God's knowledge comes from observation. God can see the universe from beginning to end, because he is not limited by time as we are.

Ruth34611 Joined Sat 08/02/08 Posts: 32402	Tue 02/21/12 06:27 PM
No I am not, just teaching what the scriptures say. If God knew every step you'll take before you took it, how then are we "judged"? Why then do we live out our lives? Why would God create someone(s) when he knew they were going to grow up and be a mass murderer? If God knew our actions before we were created, why then would he create evil people? I have never known a Christian who didn't think that God was omniscient. Cowboy, this goes against every teaching in the Bible and one of the few things Christians have a general consensus on.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 06:30 PM
Don't limit or underestimate God, Cowboy. Cause that is what you are doing. You are trying to bring God DOWN to YOUR limited human level of understanding... No I am not, just teaching what the scriptures say. If God knew every step you'll take before you took it, how then are we "judged"? Why then do we live out our lives? Why would God create someone(s) when he knew they were going to grow up and be a mass murderer? If God knew our actions before we were created, why then would he create evil people? Jeremiah 1:5 BEFORE I FORMED you in the womb I KNEW you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations. ..... Galatians 1:15 But when God, Who SET ME APART FROM BIRTH and CALLED ME BY HIS GRACE, was pleased ...... Psalm 139:15 My frame was NOT HIDDEN FROM YOU when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Psalm 139:16 your eyes SAW MY UNFORMED BODY . All the days ordained for me were written in your book BEOFRE one of them CAME TO BE. .......... Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: BEFORE I was BORN the LORD called me; FROM MY BIRTH He has made mention of my name. ............ Isaiah 49:5 And now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength- .................. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD." KJV Jeremiah 1:5 BEFORE I FORMED you in the womb I KNEW you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations. Says only God knew this person, does not say he knew what the person would or wouldn't do. He didn't say he knew he would steal $20 from his parent when he 18, ect ect. Does not say God knew his entire life before he was born. Galatians 1:15 But when God, Who SET ME APART FROM BIRTH and CALLED ME BY HIS GRACE, was pleased Again, notice set HIM apart from birth and call him his. Does not say it has been done to all of us. For if it would have been, NONE of us would perish. God would not have his own children perish for no reason at all. These are all speaking of specific persons, not saying "the human race in general". Does not say God knew US before we were formed, said God knew HIM before he was formed. So please, I ask that you find me a passage that states God knows our every step before we take them in our lives.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 06:34 PM
No I am not, just teaching what the scriptures say. If God knew every step you'll take before you took it, how then are we "judged"? Why then do we live out our lives? Why would God create someone(s) when he knew they were going to grow up and be a mass murderer? If God knew our actions before we were created, why then would he create evil people? I have never known a Christian who didn't think that God was omniscient. Cowboy, this goes against every teaching in the Bible and one of the few things Christians have a general consensus on. omniscient means to know everything. But what is there to know before it happens? There is nothing to know before it happens. I absolutely believe God to be omiscient, he is also omnipotent. Answer me this though, if God knew every step you would take in your life before you took them, how then is it a "judgement". And what would be the point in allowing us to live out our lives? And if one was going to grow up to be a mass murderer, why would God then create that person? If he created that person knowing what he would do in his life eg., kill millions, then it would actually be God's fault these millions of people's were killed and this person could not be held accountable for these deaths. And again, why would we not be created, judged, and rewarded all in the same day? Why waste the time allowing God's children to go through many different montrosities.

Ruth34611 Joined Sat 08/02/08 Posts: 32402	Tue 02/21/12 06:37 PM
One thing I know about God...and this may be irrelevant and of no importance to the subject at hand....but here it is: If we could understand God and all that He is, then He wouldn't be much of a god.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 06:38 PM
One thing I know about God...and this may be irrelevant and of no importance to the subject at hand....but here it is: If we could understand God and all that He is, then He wouldn't be much of a god. True, No one is trying to nor does understand God. Only trying to understand the knowledge he has given us.

Ruth34611 Joined Sat 08/02/08 Posts: 32402	Tue 02/21/12 06:38 PM
omniscient means to know everything. But what is there to know before it happens? There is nothing to know before it happens. I absolutely believe God to be omiscient, he is also omnipotent. Answer me this though, if God knew every step you would take in your life before you took them, how then is it a "judgement". And what would be the point in allowing us to live out our lives? And if one was going to grow up to be a mass murderer, why would God then create that person? If he created that person knowing what he would do in his life eg., kill millions, then it would actually be God's fault these millions of people's were killed and this person could not be held accountable for these deaths. And again, why would we not be created, judged, and rewarded all in the same day? Why waste the time allowing God's children to go through many different montrosities. I agree that those are very hard questions. You will have to find the truth for yourself.

Ruth34611 Joined Sat 08/02/08 Posts: 32402	Tue 02/21/12 06:40 PM
One thing I know about God...and this may be irrelevant and of no importance to the subject at hand....but here it is: If we could understand God and all that He is, then He wouldn't be much of a god. True, No one is trying to nor does understand God. Only trying to understand the knowledge he has given us. Cowboy, you are spending a lot of time trying to explain the mysteries of the faith. Some things can't be explained. But, they can be known. Good luck.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 06:41 PM
omniscient means to know everything. But what is there to know before it happens? There is nothing to know before it happens. I absolutely believe God to be omiscient, he is also omnipotent. Answer me this though, if God knew every step you would take in your life before you took them, how then is it a "judgement". And what would be the point in allowing us to live out our lives? And if one was going to grow up to be a mass murderer, why would God then create that person? If he created that person knowing what he would do in his life eg., kill millions, then it would actually be God's fault these millions of people's were killed and this person could not be held accountable for these deaths. And again, why would we not be created, judged, and rewarded all in the same day? Why waste the time allowing God's children to go through many different montrosities. I agree that those are very hard questions. You will have to find the truth for yourself. Our lives are unwritten, they are unknown at the start.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 02/21/12 06:43 PM Edited by MorningSong on Tue 02/21/12 06:44 PM
READ especially the 2 scriptures below again, Cowboy: Psalm 139:16 your eyes SAW MY UNFORMED BODY . ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME Were WRITTEN in your book BEFORE ONE of them CAME TO BE. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD." Cowboy...God knows the very numbers of the hairs on your head. God KNOWS ALL.... GOD IS ETERNAL.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 06:44 PM
One thing I know about God...and this may be irrelevant and of no importance to the subject at hand....but here it is: If we could understand God and all that He is, then He wouldn't be much of a god. True, No one is trying to nor does understand God. Only trying to understand the knowledge he has given us. Cowboy, you are spending a lot of time trying to explain the mysteries of the faith. Some things can't be explained. But, they can be known. Good luck. Makes for good conversation though, and gives specific reasoning to learn specific things rather then just reading the bible in general. Gives reason to "study" rather then just "read".

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 06:48 PM
READ especially the 2 scriptures below again, Cowboy: Psalm 139:16 your eyes SAW MY UNFORMED BODY . ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME Were WRITTEN in your book BEFORE ONE of them CAME TO BE. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD." Cowboy...God knows the very numbers of the hairs on your head. God KNOWS ALL.... GOD IS ETERNAL. SAW MY UNFORMED BODY . ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME Were WRITTEN in your book BEFORE ONE of them CAME TO BE And where does it state God knew every action he would or wouldn't take through their life? No where, please stay on subject. Cowboy...God knows the very numbers of the hairs on your head Yes he does, never said he didn't. I'm not denying God of anything, nor am I reducing him in any shape form or fashion. If God knew what you would do, before you did it, that would rule out free will. That would again make life pointless, we would be created, judged, and rewarded all in the same exact time. There would be no need to allow his children to suffer the different things people suffer around the world daily if it was that simple.

Ruth34611 Joined Sat 08/02/08 Posts: 32402	Tue 02/21/12 06:49 PM
Makes for good conversation though, and gives specific reasoning to learn specific things rather then just reading the bible in general. Gives reason to "study" rather then just "read". That is what I thought. You study the Bible so you can debate the subject matter. Well, I am hardly a good enough Christian to tell you what to do. But, in my opinion, this is a terrible reason to learn Scripture. I suggest you take 1 month off from posting on Mingle and just read your Bible with absolutely no preconceived notions as to what you will believe when you are done. Just read it. Don't make any of it try and fit what you think it should mean. Just read with a good intention and pure motive. You'll be amazed at the outcome. Okay, I'm outta here.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Tue 02/21/12 06:49 PM
This will have to be my last post on this. To quote Arnold Schwarzenegger from 'Comando', "I lied". Imagine baby Adolph Hitler. Was baby Adolph Hitler destined to be a genocidal dictator or did that part of him develop through his upbringing and life experiences? I would content it was the latter, not the former that made Hitler the leader of the 3rd Reich. If God "created, judged, and rewarded all in the same day?", we would all be found innocent as babies, because that is what we would be. It is because we have the freedom to live our lives that we can sin and become who we are. God's knowledge of us is not locked into our perception of the present, there is no "present" to God. God is timeless and exists outside of our universe. God is fully aware of what we call the past, present and future.

PrettyyPlace Joined Fri 02/03/12 Posts: 2	Tue 02/21/12 06:51 PM
Free choice is just that,- the power to choose. Now what we do in making our choices says whether or not we sin. So choose wisely. And if you want to know whether the choice that you've made in a particular matter is right or wrong, just open up your bible, and read it. It will guide you into the correct choice. For a "fast read" and to be brought up to speed quickly on a matter, read in the Bible's Old Testament, the Book of Exodus, Chapter 20.(The Ten Commandments)

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 06:52 PM
Makes for good conversation though, and gives specific reasoning to learn specific things rather then just reading the bible in general. Gives reason to "study" rather then just "read". That is what I thought. You study the Bible so you can debate the subject matter. Well, I am hardly a good enough Christian to tell you what to do. But, in my opinion, this is a terrible reason to learn Scripture. I suggest you take 1 month off from posting on Mingle and just read your Bible with absolutely no preconceived notions as to what you will believe when you are done. Just read it. Don't make any of it try and fit what you think it should mean. Just read with a good intention and pure motive. You'll be amazed at the outcome. Okay, I'm outta here. That is what I thought. You study the Bible so you can debate the subject matter. I "debate" nothing. Nor do I "argue". I "discuss" different topics at hand. In a discussion people will not always agree on everything. That is when further discussion comes in to figure out who is in the wrong and why so they may learn.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 02/21/12 07:11 PM Edited by MorningSong on Tue 02/21/12 07:13 PM
Psalm 139:16 your eyes SAW MY UNFORMED BODY . ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME Were WRITTEN in your book BEFORE ONE of them CAME TO BE. Cowboy...after this post,I will have to quit trying to explain any further. The scripture above is VERY CLEAR : "Your eyes SAW my UNFORMED body ".... means God ALREADY SAW, even before the BODY WAS FORMED ,or BORN YET. " ALL the days ORDAINED for me WERE WRITTEN in YOUR BOOK BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE". That means ...BEFORE the person's days lived on earth even took place yet, GOD already KNEW how each day woukd unfold...and even wrote them in the book of life..BEFORE the days happend yet for the person. The scripture above is VERY CLEAR. AGAIN... GOD KNOWS ALL THINGS.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 02/21/12 07:30 PM Edited by CowboyGH on Tue 02/21/12 07:31 PM
Psalm 139:16 your eyes SAW MY UNFORMED BODY . ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME Were WRITTEN in your book BEFORE ONE of them CAME TO BE. Cowboy...after this post,I will have to quit trying to explain any further. The scripture above is VERY CLEAR : "Your eyes SAW my UNFORMED body ".... means God ALREADY SAW, even before the BODY WAS FORMED ,or BORN YET. " ALL the days ORDAINED for me WERE WRITTEN in YOUR BOOK BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE". That means ...BEFORE the person's days lived on earth even took place yet, GOD already KNEW how each day woukd unfold...and even wrote them in the book of life..BEFORE the days happend yet for the person. The scripture above is VERY CLEAR. AGAIN... GOD KNOWS ALL THINGS. That means ...BEFORE the person's days lived on earth even took place yet, GOD already KNEW how each day woukd unfold...and even wrote them in the book of life..BEFORE the days happend yet for the person. still none of this shows God knew that person's or our actions before hand. Only knew this person before he was born in the womb of his mother, same with us. God know's each and every one of us before we are born. But again, that does not show or explain God knowing any person(s) actions before they do them. Why do you never answer my questions when I ask them? I don't ask them just to ask them or for thought or anything, I truly wish for you to answer them. Question being If God know's every action we will ever take through our lives, why waste the time living the life? Why not create us in the womb, then we are born and judged at the same exact time? Why allow his children to go through the troubles of this world? Why not just make it quick and simple?

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Tue 02/21/12 07:50 PM Edited by Dragoness on Tue 02/21/12 07:50 PM
I have rethought this question. By definition of sin, yea, free will is sin in the Christian religion. As long as you make a choice that goes with Christianity then it is disguised as free will but once you make a choice not in line with Christianity it is sin. So yea free will is sin in one sense.