Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: Is "Free Will" a sin?
CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 02/20/12 03:00 PM
Free will is choice, period. No if's an's or but's about it. Free will means you can make a choice. The reaction and or consequence of the action has no merit on weather it's free will or not, for you still had the choice. You have the choice to obey God, or not. You are not an automatically programmed robot or puppet on a string. YOU choose, no one else. I disagree. (WITH THE BOLD) We have the consciousness to think for ourselves. We don't need a boss to obey. WE ARE FREE. Our souls are free. The will is a conscious decision to direct your own life. It is not simply a choice. Most choices you make throughout your day are unconscious choices. When you make a conscious choice, you are using your will. The will is always conscious. We live most of or lives reacting and responding to natural stimuli that is programmed within our makeup. That is, we don't really THINK about what we are doing or the choices we are making. The WILL IS ALWAYS and naturally FREE. It is not a "gift." It is earned by becoming conscious. When we as creatures become more and more conscious, we manifest our ability to think and use our will. There is no entity living and ruling us giving us commands and asking us to obey. There is only consciousness. It is not a choice to "obey" God or not. That is ridiculous. We are designed and have evolved with the ability to THINK AND REASON AND BE CONSCIOUS. We are not robots because and only because have evolved to have more consciousness. I disagree. (WITH THE BOLD) We have the consciousness to think for ourselves. We don't need a boss to obey. WE ARE FREE You say we don't need a boss or anything of such eh? Why are we not all still just a bunch of nomads running around without a government if we can control ourselves? Why do people murder if we can control ourselves? Why does anyone do anything "evil" if we have the ability to control ourselves?

Ruth34611 Joined Sat 08/02/08 Posts: 32402	Mon 02/20/12 03:08 PM
I think that what JB means is that it's not really free will if you have a horrific punishiment hanging over your head. Yes, you are free to choose right or wrong, but it's not really a "choice" if one choice leads to hell. I could be wrong, but I think that is what she was saying.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Mon 02/20/12 03:43 PM
Sin and sorrow said: If free-will does exist, then you have no 'choice' BUT to use it. I didn't say such as if my own ideal. According to the debate we were having. That was the truth that was being portrayed to me. Thus I stated it bluntly instead of how it was vaguely being presented. This is not necessarily true. It depends on what your idea of the will is. If you think the will is simply the ability to make any decision, it could be true. People and even animals make decisions every moment of every day. But the will is not simply making a decision because most decisions are made automatically and according to our natural instinct or programming. ..which was the message I was trying to get across. So, instead of defending my point, I instead reverting to processing there ideal and putting it bluntly over its original vagueness. The will is always "free" so to put the word "free" in front of it is redundant because it implies that there is a condition where the will is not free. The will is free but you don't have to use it. You can follow your natural programming and react to stimuli according to DNA and other conditions. It is only when you become more conscious that you begin to use your will. The will is the power to direct your attention and thoughts AGAINST natural programming and instinct and only according to what you decide. Again, I agree.. But it wasn't truly the ideal of 'free-will' to the extent you are now discussing that was our original intention. I was told that: "God has a plan for us all. He knows what we will do." To which I said: "Then how can you state we have free-will? If we are already destined to do this, or that, technically, there is no such thing as 'free-will'. If he 'already' knows, then there's no possible way he could now each person's 2 million variances (choices) that take place each and every single waking moment. IE: get-up, sleep in, have coffee, dont, shower using the gel or the bar, etc etc. Each little detail is an alteration of a set path. Therefore, to say he 'knows', is almost ridiculous. If one person has the capacity to alter his own 'path' 5 billion times in one day; how can he possibly predict 7 billion people's alterations ever waking second to actually have any 'set plan' for us. For that to viable, imo results in either A or B, but it cannot be both. A. There is no free-will, God has a plan. B. There is free-will, and God is oblivious. The only alteration I saw as a possibility is C. C. Our destiny lies only in Death. That which no man can escape. Thus, everything in between gives us the hallucination of free-will, because none of what we accomplish, do, or devote our lives to actually holds any precedence, because our only destiny is to die and face judgement. The will is assertive. That is why when a person addicted to drugs stops taking drugs against the body's addicted cravings he is said to have "will power." The will swims against the current instead of drifting to where the river is taking him or her. In looking at the will this way, you might say that it is going against your own natural animal instincts or even going against "God." Very true. RELIGIONS (Christianity) try to teach that we should obey obey obey "God." And yet they reluctantly (it seems) admit that we have a thing called "Free will." But they will usually boil it down to the making of a choice to obey and accept and believe in God (according to their idea or their book) or not obey and accept and believe in God. To the contrary. Christians, in the other thread you mentioned, spoke of us having free-will. Somehow, the idea is justified by the fact Adam and Eve 'sinning' gave us 'free-will'. Even though the tree was denoted as Good and Evil, apparently it also held some 'free-will' powers. If you do not obey and accept and believe in God you are doomed to die; but you are promised eternal life if you do obey and accept and believe in God. Therefore the will to disobey as Adam and Eve did, is your temptation. To seek freedom and individuality and independence from servitude and obedience to God is a sin. The temptation is an unproven myth. To be tempted, do you not have to already have the ability to access good and evil to differentiate one from the other? So to be tempted into something evil, away from your normal behaviors, you have to actually have the knowledge that if 'I do this, it is evil'. Adam nor Eve had the ability until after the fact of eating the 'fruit'. So, temptation, in itself, I cannot see (imo) played a vital role. Therefore "free will" becomes the apple of disobedience in Christianity. They smile and admit that we have been given "free will" and they pray that we make the "right" choice because if we don't..... we are doomed. Christians can't believe that a person would not choose to serve God and obey and have eternal life. But the problem is religion. Organized religions have taken over the position of God and they have listed their rules and they have declared that the Bible is the "word of God" to be obeyed. Organized religion holds the power over the people, or at least tries to. ..wherein lies the problem. Because they make it apparent they cannot actually fathom the words, let alone read them, themselves. And they distort the truth, and they don't really know God at all. Organized religion does not like "free will." They preach obedience and servitude and only the will of God has any merit. They don't really want people to have or use their free will. It seems to me, that if a God wanted everyone to obey, he would not have granted or "given" anyone a will of their own. We would all be robots forced to follow programming. ..which is why I stated: either A or B. A. We have free-will. B. We have destiny. And it is found upon death. But we do develop a will of our own as we gain more consciousness. That is according to plan! Therefore that we discover and use our own will is according to purpose. ..precisely. Or.. ..it's God's plan that you do what you do at any given moment. Thus, 'will' is but an illusion. A drug addict quits drugs --God's plan OR free-will. You decide to walk instead of drive. --Plan OR free-will. If I am mistaken, then please, someone explain it to me. But I do not see, in any way, how the two can possibly co-exist.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Mon 02/20/12 03:45 PM
No, you have choice of action. No one lives in hell but Satan. People may think they are living in hell on Earth, but that all boils down to perception and brings to mind the "if you're not happy, lower your standards". If you want all the riches in the world and are unhappy that you do not have it, you will be living in "hell" by your perception. If you allow what you do not have to influence how your life is, is by your own choice. If you stay focused on what you do have and the blessings that have been brought upon you instead of dwelling on the bad things in life, that is by your own choice. ..bold print is a lie, and is against the Bible. God permanently banished two people to Hell to live for all of eternity. Well, after he did such with Satan. And I speak not of the 'Hell on Earth'. Before you ask for exact quotes, I don't remember, I stated this in another thread.

chocolina Joined Tue 12/07/10 Posts: 183	Mon 02/20/12 03:47 PM
Chocolina We have to define first 'free will' CowboyGH Choice, simple as that. We are not automatically programmed to do certain things, we are not puppets on a string. CowboyGH , Don't confuse Free Will with a simple choice please .. Free will goes further then just choosing who to worship. Free will goes as far as what you want to eat for dinner. Free Will is not only religious category but also of philosophy so you have to know what are you talking about . I that chase when you define like 'a choice to worship' you immediately give it to Free Will limit - to worship hence not worshiping is excluded About dinner - you need only a simple choice among the limit numbers of something .. The scriptures give no power or riches to anyone. Ok , explain me how comes that Vatican is the most powerful and richest institution - business corporation in the world ...

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Mon 02/20/12 04:20 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Mon 02/20/12 04:22 PM
Sin and sorrow said: If free-will does exist, then you have no 'choice' BUT to use it. I didn't say such as if my own ideal. According to the debate we were having. That was the truth that was being portrayed to me. Thus I stated it bluntly instead of how it was vaguely being presented. This is not necessarily true. It depends on what your idea of the will is. If you think the will is simply the ability to make any decision, it could be true. People and even animals make decisions every moment of every day. But the will is not simply making a decision because most decisions are made automatically and according to our natural instinct or programming. ..which was the message I was trying to get across. So, instead of defending my point, I instead reverting to processing there ideal and putting it bluntly over its original vagueness. The will is always "free" so to put the word "free" in front of it is redundant because it implies that there is a condition where the will is not free. The will is free but you don't have to use it. You can follow your natural programming and react to stimuli according to DNA and other conditions. It is only when you become more conscious that you begin to use your will. The will is the power to direct your attention and thoughts AGAINST natural programming and instinct and only according to what you decide. Again, I agree.. But it wasn't truly the ideal of 'free-will' to the extent you are now discussing that was our original intention. I was told that: "God has a plan for us all. He knows what we will do." To which I said: "Then how can you state we have free-will? If we are already destined to do this, or that, technically, there is no such thing as 'free-will'. If he 'already' knows, then there's no possible way he could now each person's 2 million variances (choices) that take place each and every single waking moment. IE: get-up, sleep in, have coffee, dont, shower using the gel or the bar, etc etc. Each little detail is an alteration of a set path. Therefore, to say he 'knows', is almost ridiculous. If one person has the capacity to alter his own 'path' 5 billion times in one day; how can he possibly predict 7 billion people's alterations ever waking second to actually have any 'set plan' for us. For that to viable, imo results in either A or B, but it cannot be both. A. There is no free-will, God has a plan. B. There is free-will, and God is oblivious. The only alteration I saw as a possibility is C. C. Our destiny lies only in Death. That which no man can escape. Thus, everything in between gives us the hallucination of free-will, because none of what we accomplish, do, or devote our lives to actually holds any precedence, because our only destiny is to die and face judgement. The will is assertive. That is why when a person addicted to drugs stops taking drugs against the body's addicted cravings he is said to have "will power." The will swims against the current instead of drifting to where the river is taking him or her. In looking at the will this way, you might say that it is going against your own natural animal instincts or even going against "God." Very true. RELIGIONS (Christianity) try to teach that we should obey obey obey "God." And yet they reluctantly (it seems) admit that we have a thing called "Free will." But they will usually boil it down to the making of a choice to obey and accept and believe in God (according to their idea or their book) or not obey and accept and believe in God. To the contrary. Christians, in the other thread you mentioned, spoke of us having free-will. Somehow, the idea is justified by the fact Adam and Eve 'sinning' gave us 'free-will'. Even though the tree was denoted as Good and Evil, apparently it also held some 'free-will' powers. If you do not obey and accept and believe in God you are doomed to die; but you are promised eternal life if you do obey and accept and believe in God. Therefore the will to disobey as Adam and Eve did, is your temptation. To seek freedom and individuality and independence from servitude and obedience to God is a sin. The temptation is an unproven myth. To be tempted, do you not have to already have the ability to access good and evil to differentiate one from the other? So to be tempted into something evil, away from your normal behaviors, you have to actually have the knowledge that if 'I do this, it is evil'. Adam nor Eve had the ability until after the fact of eating the 'fruit'. So, temptation, in itself, I cannot see (imo) played a vital role. Therefore "free will" becomes the apple of disobedience in Christianity. They smile and admit that we have been given "free will" and they pray that we make the "right" choice because if we don't..... we are doomed. Christians can't believe that a person would not choose to serve God and obey and have eternal life. But the problem is religion. Organized religions have taken over the position of God and they have listed their rules and they have declared that the Bible is the "word of God" to be obeyed. Organized religion holds the power over the people, or at least tries to. ..wherein lies the problem. Because they make it apparent they cannot actually fathom the words, let alone read them, themselves. And they distort the truth, and they don't really know God at all. Organized religion does not like "free will." They preach obedience and servitude and only the will of God has any merit. They don't really want people to have or use their free will. It seems to me, that if a God wanted everyone to obey, he would not have granted or "given" anyone a will of their own. We would all be robots forced to follow programming. ..which is why I stated: either A or B. A. We have free-will. B. We have destiny. And it is found upon death. But we do develop a will of our own as we gain more consciousness. That is according to plan! Therefore that we discover and use our own will is according to purpose. ..precisely. Or.. ..it's God's plan that you do what you do at any given moment. Thus, 'will' is but an illusion. A drug addict quits drugs --God's plan OR free-will. You decide to walk instead of drive. --Plan OR free-will. If I am mistaken, then please, someone explain it to me. But I do not see, in any way, how the two can possibly co-exist. They cannot both co-exist. The will is free. It is naturally free. It is earned through an evolution to CONSCIOUSNESS. It is not simply a choice between "good or evil" or God and Satan. That is a simplified version used by the authority of the Church leaders to gain compliance and teach those who are not yet "grown up" enough or conscious enough to know right from wrong. Rules are for children who do not know right from wrong. Reward and punishment is for children who do not know any better. When one becomes more conscious they grow up spiritually and when they do that, they know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God. I and the father are one. Our will is the same. Aligned with good. But freedom is freedom and the soul is free. Free to have their own interests, and their own direction. Free to make their own decisions in the universe. Freedom means independence and responsibility, it does not mean servitude and obedience. If you want to serve another entity that is your free choice to make but there is no punishment for not doing so. We are all free souls and creator Gods in training. God, the creative source of all things, the intelligent universal mind, wants to be free and wants all to be free because God lives and has his being in all.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 02/20/12 04:22 PM
Chocolina We have to define first 'free will' CowboyGH Choice, simple as that. We are not automatically programmed to do certain things, we are not puppets on a string. CowboyGH , Don't confuse Free Will with a simple choice please .. Free will goes further then just choosing who to worship. Free will goes as far as what you want to eat for dinner. Free Will is not only religious category but also of philosophy so you have to know what are you talking about . I that chase when you define like 'a choice to worship' you immediately give it to Free Will limit - to worship hence not worshiping is excluded About dinner - you need only a simple choice among the limit numbers of something .. The scriptures give no power or riches to anyone. Ok , explain me how comes that Vatican is the most powerful and richest institution - business corporation in the world ... CowboyGH , Don't confuse Free Will with a simple choice please That's all free will is, is choice. The outcomes, effects, reactions, possible punishments or negative effects have no bearing on if it's free will or not. Free will is CHOICE, period. Nothing more, nothing less. Ok , explain me how comes that Vatican is the most powerful and richest institution - business corporation in the world You would have to ask the people that run Vatican, the scriptures do not support such, it is not a direct commandment from God to give to Vatican or any other single "organization".

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 02/20/12 04:27 PM
Sin and sorrow said: If free-will does exist, then you have no 'choice' BUT to use it. I didn't say such as if my own ideal. According to the debate we were having. That was the truth that was being portrayed to me. Thus I stated it bluntly instead of how it was vaguely being presented. This is not necessarily true. It depends on what your idea of the will is. If you think the will is simply the ability to make any decision, it could be true. People and even animals make decisions every moment of every day. But the will is not simply making a decision because most decisions are made automatically and according to our natural instinct or programming. ..which was the message I was trying to get across. So, instead of defending my point, I instead reverting to processing there ideal and putting it bluntly over its original vagueness. The will is always "free" so to put the word "free" in front of it is redundant because it implies that there is a condition where the will is not free. The will is free but you don't have to use it. You can follow your natural programming and react to stimuli according to DNA and other conditions. It is only when you become more conscious that you begin to use your will. The will is the power to direct your attention and thoughts AGAINST natural programming and instinct and only according to what you decide. Again, I agree.. But it wasn't truly the ideal of 'free-will' to the extent you are now discussing that was our original intention. I was told that: "God has a plan for us all. He knows what we will do." To which I said: "Then how can you state we have free-will? If we are already destined to do this, or that, technically, there is no such thing as 'free-will'. If he 'already' knows, then there's no possible way he could now each person's 2 million variances (choices) that take place each and every single waking moment. IE: get-up, sleep in, have coffee, dont, shower using the gel or the bar, etc etc. Each little detail is an alteration of a set path. Therefore, to say he 'knows', is almost ridiculous. If one person has the capacity to alter his own 'path' 5 billion times in one day; how can he possibly predict 7 billion people's alterations ever waking second to actually have any 'set plan' for us. For that to viable, imo results in either A or B, but it cannot be both. A. There is no free-will, God has a plan. B. There is free-will, and God is oblivious. The only alteration I saw as a possibility is C. C. Our destiny lies only in Death. That which no man can escape. Thus, everything in between gives us the hallucination of free-will, because none of what we accomplish, do, or devote our lives to actually holds any precedence, because our only destiny is to die and face judgement. The will is assertive. That is why when a person addicted to drugs stops taking drugs against the body's addicted cravings he is said to have "will power." The will swims against the current instead of drifting to where the river is taking him or her. In looking at the will this way, you might say that it is going against your own natural animal instincts or even going against "God." Very true. RELIGIONS (Christianity) try to teach that we should obey obey obey "God." And yet they reluctantly (it seems) admit that we have a thing called "Free will." But they will usually boil it down to the making of a choice to obey and accept and believe in God (according to their idea or their book) or not obey and accept and believe in God. To the contrary. Christians, in the other thread you mentioned, spoke of us having free-will. Somehow, the idea is justified by the fact Adam and Eve 'sinning' gave us 'free-will'. Even though the tree was denoted as Good and Evil, apparently it also held some 'free-will' powers. If you do not obey and accept and believe in God you are doomed to die; but you are promised eternal life if you do obey and accept and believe in God. Therefore the will to disobey as Adam and Eve did, is your temptation. To seek freedom and individuality and independence from servitude and obedience to God is a sin. The temptation is an unproven myth. To be tempted, do you not have to already have the ability to access good and evil to differentiate one from the other? So to be tempted into something evil, away from your normal behaviors, you have to actually have the knowledge that if 'I do this, it is evil'. Adam nor Eve had the ability until after the fact of eating the 'fruit'. So, temptation, in itself, I cannot see (imo) played a vital role. Therefore "free will" becomes the apple of disobedience in Christianity. They smile and admit that we have been given "free will" and they pray that we make the "right" choice because if we don't..... we are doomed. Christians can't believe that a person would not choose to serve God and obey and have eternal life. But the problem is religion. Organized religions have taken over the position of God and they have listed their rules and they have declared that the Bible is the "word of God" to be obeyed. Organized religion holds the power over the people, or at least tries to. ..wherein lies the problem. Because they make it apparent they cannot actually fathom the words, let alone read them, themselves. And they distort the truth, and they don't really know God at all. Organized religion does not like "free will." They preach obedience and servitude and only the will of God has any merit. They don't really want people to have or use their free will. It seems to me, that if a God wanted everyone to obey, he would not have granted or "given" anyone a will of their own. We would all be robots forced to follow programming. ..which is why I stated: either A or B. A. We have free-will. B. We have destiny. And it is found upon death. But we do develop a will of our own as we gain more consciousness. That is according to plan! Therefore that we discover and use our own will is according to purpose. ..precisely. Or.. ..it's God's plan that you do what you do at any given moment. Thus, 'will' is but an illusion. A drug addict quits drugs --God's plan OR free-will. You decide to walk instead of drive. --Plan OR free-will. If I am mistaken, then please, someone explain it to me. But I do not see, in any way, how the two can possibly co-exist. They cannot both co-exist. The will is free. It is naturally free. It is earned through an evolution to CONSCIOUSNESS. It is not simply a choice between "good or evil" or God and Satan. That is a simplified version used by the authority of the Church leaders to gain compliance and teach those who are not yet "grown up" enough or conscious enough to know right from wrong. Rules are for children who do not know right from wrong. Reward and punishment is for children who do not know any better. When one becomes more conscious they grow up spiritually and when they do that, they know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God. I and the father are one. Our will is the same. Aligned with good. But freedom is freedom and the soul is free. Free to have their own interests, and their own direction. Free to make their own decisions in the universe. Freedom means independence and responsibility, it does not mean servitude and obedience. If you want to serve another entity that is your free choice to make but there is no punishment for not doing so. We are all free souls and creator Gods in training. God, the creative source of all things, the intelligent universal mind, wants to be free and wants all to be free because God lives and has his being in all. It is not simply a choice between "good or evil" or God and Satan. That is a simplified version used by the authority of the Church leaders to gain compliance and teach those who are not yet "grown up" enough or conscious enough to know right from wrong. Rules are for children who do not know right from wrong. Reward and punishment is for children who do not know any better. When one becomes more conscious they grow up spiritually and when they do that, they know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God No it's not simply choice from good and evil, it's simply choice, period. This can range from what you want to eat, to what you want to wear for the day, to if you're going to beat the lights out of someone, to stealing, to if you wish to help someone in need, ect ect. Free will doesn't just apply to God, it is choice in general. Rules are for children who do not know right from wrong. Reward and punishment is for children who do not know any better. When one becomes more conscious they grow up spiritually and when they do that, they know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God They know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God eh? Hmm... please explain hitler then, explain murders and rapists, explain why people do evil things then. And besides that "right and wrong" is a perspective, it is a personal opinion. What one see's as being "wrong" another may be think it's the right thing to do.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Mon 02/20/12 04:28 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Mon 02/20/12 04:30 PM
Cowboy, the will is not just every simple choice we engage in. It is the conscious volition to direct your own life with purpose, in spite of all other natural instinctual programming of the animal nature. It is conscious dependence of body, mind and soul from DNA and other programming designed for us for our automatic survival. It is the emergence of the awareness of spirit within the creature that allows us to evolve toward the mind of God.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Mon 02/20/12 04:33 PM
They cannot both co-exist. The will is free. It is naturally free. It is earned through an evolution to CONSCIOUSNESS. It is not simply a choice between "good or evil" or God and Satan. That is a simplified version used by the authority of the Church leaders to gain compliance and teach those who are not yet "grown up" enough or conscious enough to know right from wrong. Rules are for children who do not know right from wrong. Reward and punishment is for children who do not know any better. When one becomes more conscious they grow up spiritually and when they do that, they know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God. I and the father are one. Our will is the same. Aligned with good. But freedom is freedom and the soul is free. Free to have their own interests, and their own direction. Free to make their own decisions in the universe. Freedom means independence and responsibility, it does not mean servitude and obedience. If you want to serve another entity that is your free choice to make but there is no punishment for not doing so. We are all free souls and creator Gods in training. God, the creative source of all things, the intelligent universal mind, wants to be free and wants all to be free because God lives and has his being in all. Precisely (in bold). That was what I was trying to explain, differentiate and figure out. It's either A or B; but cannot be both. A. Free-will is an illusion, all is just God's plan. (Biblical) B. Free-will is real, God has no plan for us. (Against the Bible) If the Bible is correct, our Destiny lies solely in when we are re-united with our creator, and his Plan meets its end. Stating this implies, simply enough; Free-will is just an illusion, and everything you deem as a 'choice' is already predetermined as to which you will choose even if you think or believe you are the one actually making said choice. Oddly enough, the concept revolves around the same 'plot' that the movie series, "The Matrix" was developed. You believe you picked this to eat, this to drive, or this action to take part in --but in reality, you were programmed prior to make that choice and the process in which you 'debated' was that of a similarity between your computer registering what 'action' you just told it to do. The computer will access possibilities of what you could have possibly meant, but ultimately, in the end; it only did exactly what you told it to do.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Mon 02/20/12 04:34 PM
They know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God eh? Hmm... please explain hitler then, explain murders and rapists, explain why people do evil things then. They are not aligned with good and God. We do not all evolve to consciousness at the same rate. And besides that "right and wrong" is a perspective, it is a personal opinion. What one see's as being "wrong" another may be think it's the right thing to do. True. So why do you think anyone should listen to or trust the church fathers or the Bible? The only person I trust to know right from wrong is myself, plain and simple.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Mon 02/20/12 04:41 PM
They know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God eh? Hmm... please explain hitler then, explain murders and rapists, explain why people do evil things then. ..you asked a question.. And besides that "right and wrong" is a perspective, it is a personal opinion. What one see's as being "wrong" another may be think it's the right thing to do. ..then answered it.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Mon 02/20/12 04:42 PM
You speak as though: God's word is right, pure, of good origin. But how do you know? Because a book tells you so? That makes you no less and no greater than the Nazi's who loyally followed and served Hitler. ..they believed he was right, too.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 02/20/12 05:02 PM
They know right from wrong and their own will becomes aligned with good and God eh? Hmm... please explain hitler then, explain murders and rapists, explain why people do evil things then. They are not aligned with good and God. We do not all evolve to consciousness at the same rate. And besides that "right and wrong" is a perspective, it is a personal opinion. What one see's as being "wrong" another may be think it's the right thing to do. True. So why do you think anyone should listen to or trust the church fathers or the Bible? The only person I trust to know right from wrong is myself, plain and simple. The bible doesn't teach what is right or wrong, what is good and evil on an opinion kind of level. The scriptures tell what to do or what not to do, not specifically what is good or evil. What is good or evil is actually irrelevant. God tell us to do or not do something, then we should obey, no questions asked, again doesn't matter if it's "good" or "evil" for again those things are opionated and are nothing more then a perspective. The only person I trust to know right from wrong is myself, plain and simple. This works to an extent and is the reason we have been given laws on a whole rather then on an individual. What you deam as right, may offend another, or may be wrong for another. Why are you only worried about oneself? Why do you not care if you offend or hurt another from doing what you feel is "right"?

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Mon 02/20/12 05:20 PM
The bible doesn't teach what is right or wrong, what is good and evil on an opinion kind of level. The scriptures tell what to do or what not to do, not specifically what is good or evil. What is good or evil is actually irrelevant. God tell us to do or not do something, then we should obey, no questions asked, again doesn't matter if it's "good" or "evil" for again those things are opionated and are nothing more then a perspective. So the Ten Commandments aren't 'law' or 'rules'. They fail to specify what is right and what is wrong? ..they are just options?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Mon 02/20/12 06:30 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Mon 02/20/12 06:33 PM
COWBOY SAID: The bible doesn't teach what is right or wrong, what is good and evil on an opinion kind of level. It means to teach by way of stories. Stories that have morals. No, not on an "opinion" level. People back then did not express opinions at all. Scripture was written like children's stories and the target audience was a people who were like children in their thinking. We have grown and evolved mentally and spiritually in leaps and bounds since then. The scripture no longer applies to our minds. We are not children any more. Put away childish things. The scriptures tell what to do or what not to do, not specifically what is good or evil. What is good or evil is actually irrelevant. God tell us to do or not do something, then we should obey, no questions asked, again doesn't matter if it's "good" or "evil" for again those things are opionated and are nothing more then a perspective. To blindly obey (anyone - including what you believe to be God) with no regard to what is good or evil is asking for big trouble. No questions asked? I beg to differ! That is blind obedience. If you can't think for yourself, and you are a child, then yes, to obey your wiser parents is probably a good idea if you trust them. But God does not walk the earth and he does not give orders or hold office. There is no one to obey. Most people have evolved a lot in the last 2000 years. Most people do know right from wrong and can think for themselves and make the right choices. We learn by our mistakes. If you never make any mistakes, you will probably not learn much. Most of all, we have A MIND AND A WILL OF OUR OWN BY DESIGN. We are meant to use our free will and our minds. We are not meant to blindly obey some unseen master you call "God" through the words of the men of the Church and a book written by unknown men over 2000 years ago. That is not logical or wise. Learn to think for yourself.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/20/12 07:57 PM
to me, free will is just the presence of choice all those things we CHOOSE to do and say come from our free will basically, everything but being born, all involuntary physical actions within the body(like breathing). and having to die everything in between we choose to do,, or we choose to NOT DO,,with our free will

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Mon 02/20/12 08:03 PM
to me, free will is just the presence of choice all those things we CHOOSE to do and say come from our free will basically, everything but being born, all involuntary physical actions within the body(like breathing). and having to die everything in between we choose to do,, or we choose to NOT DO,,with our free will So, you are non-Christian?

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/20/12 08:04 PM
to me, free will is just the presence of choice all those things we CHOOSE to do and say come from our free will basically, everything but being born, all involuntary physical actions within the body(like breathing). and having to die everything in between we choose to do,, or we choose to NOT DO,,with our free will So, you are non-Christian? not that Im aware of

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Mon 02/20/12 08:09 PM
to me, free will is just the presence of choice all those things we CHOOSE to do and say come from our free will basically, everything but being born, all involuntary physical actions within the body(like breathing). and having to die everything in between we choose to do,, or we choose to NOT DO,,with our free will So, you are non-Christian? not that Im aware of ..so do you then believe God has a plan for us all? Because that is where this issue arises.