Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: Delusion
msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 11:21 AM
I doubt I could make it make sense to most non believers because I find that there is a different frame of focus. Namely, it seems to me that most non believers I speak with place the focus and significance on the flesh,,,which makes it quite logical to find death or killing in any case a horrid and illogical thing for me, the sense comes in trying to imagine(and I can only try)the great responsibility and privilege that accomodated being 'chosen' Death and killing IS a horrid and illogical thing. There is no way you can diminish that fact. And we are not "non believers." We believe in God. Don't try to take that away from us. You are not in possession of GOD and you do not own GOD. It is your doctrine and dogma we reject. It is your alien god we reject. Yes, it is your god who is the false god. Being 'chosen' to serve what I view as an evil alien posing as god is no privilege. Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh to you, but evil beget evil and the foundation of the Church is 'evil.' for me, the sense comes in trying to understand how significant our SOUL/SPIRIT is to the creator than our flesh,, although we are not to abuse the flesh which houses our soul, it is still not MORE imporant to him( I imagine) than our soul. The true source of creation is not after your soul to have as it as its own. Your SOUL IS FREE! It is only the apposing false gods who want your souls. If the body, and LIFE was not extremely important, we would not be here living in the flesh. in my faith, I understand that losing our soul forever would be far worse and was avoided on some occasions by protecting them from the world that our FLESHly homes required them to be exposed to and potentially corrupted forever by,,, If you ARE your soul, you cannot lose it. You can either be free or you can be in bondage to an alien god. but Id bet the house that, as I said, that would not make sense to most non believers If I am a non believer, it is your alien god that I do not believe in. if the shoe doesnt fit, I dont think anyone should feel they need to wear it most non believers I SPEAK TO,,,do find the flesh the most important thing,,,

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 11:22 AM
If the bible does not work for you, find what does and hope that it was the right path at the end of the day,,,

greeneyeman Joined Wed 04/13/11 Posts: 350	Thu 05/19/11 11:37 AM
Oh we have done that a long time ago, yet we discuss about the inconsistencies and contradictions of the bible and are baffled of how people believe in such a doctrine in the first place. That is why I called the thread "delusion".

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 11:41 AM
Oh we have done that a long time ago, yet we discuss about the inconsistencies and contradictions of the bible and are baffled of how people believe in such a doctrine in the first place. That is why I called the thread "delusion". I think its called 'delusion' b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs to belittle those of faith,,,but thats just my opinion a delusion would be to think you were going to become a millionaire working as a cashier at blockbuster there isnt the level of INDISPUTABLE evidence to the contrary to make belief in the bible, religion, God,,etc,,,,anything like a delusion

greeneyeman Joined Wed 04/13/11 Posts: 350	Thu 05/19/11 12:20 PM
It would be a delusion to belief in a faith that shows no evidence yet still practice it without logical means. This is why we believers (just not of a abrahamic religion) are wondering how one can follow such a book of contradictions in the first place. I see nothing wrong with that. To post verses from the bible of inconsistencies and still have believers of that faith refute or go around them also shows how brainwashed one can get when confronted in a community that only offers one faith system. That is what usually happens and why so many followers go to that source in the first place. Here is where I go and say open your minds and look at other alternatives that are much more peaceful and logical. Of course if you insist on following a mediterranian mythology that demands obedience then so be it. You can believe whatever you like, but you can't have people not express their opinions about a religion if they don't agree with it. It is our right to do so if we like. Therefore we see it as a persistent false psychotic belief that has indisputable evidence to the contrary. In other words it was interesting to see how people react to such laws set by the bible on this thread. The verses I presented shows the different mind sets we have in this world. Some find justice in the form of death correct and others don't for example. Now go look in that dictionary for another term since you do that so often on these threads. lol

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 12:28 PM Edited by msharmony on Thu 05/19/11 12:29 PM
It would be a delusion to belief in a faith that shows no evidence yet still practice it without logical means. This is why we believers (just not of a abrahamic religion) are wondering how one can follow such a book of contradictions in the first place. I see nothing wrong with that. To post verses from the bible of inconsistencies and still have believers of that faith refute or go around them also shows how brainwashed one can get when confronted in a community that only offers one faith system. That is what usually happens and why so many followers go to that source in the first place. Here is where I go and say open your minds and look at other alternatives that are much more peaceful and logical. Of course if you insist on following a mediterranian mythology that demands obedience then so be it. You can believe whatever you like, but you can't have people not express their opinions about a religion if they don't agree with it. It is our right to do so if we like. Therefore we see it as a persistent false psychotic belief that has indisputable evidence to the contrary. In other words it was interesting to see how people react to such laws set by the bible on this thread. The verses I presented shows the different mind sets we have in this world. Some find justice in the form of death correct and others don't for example. Now go look in that dictionary for another term since you do that so often on these threads. lol who says it shows 'no evidence'? evidence of what? there is no INDISPUTIBLE EVIDENCE disproving the whole bible anymore than there is proving ALL parts of it calling people psychotic and delusional because they have an understanding that we/you dont is rather,,,,,presumptious I see the persistence in biblical faith as 'psychotic' as a persistent issue of ego and need to feel superior that those of FAITH are so often accused of themself I dont refer to 'non believers' with such disdain, yet as a christian, I will be charged as being the 'judgmental' one ironic, isnt it?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Thu 05/19/11 12:29 PM
most non believers I SPEAK TO,,,do find the flesh the most important thing,,, If the flesh were not important, then why worship the god you claim created it?

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 12:30 PM
most non believers I SPEAK TO,,,do find the flesh the most important thing,,, If the flesh were not important, then why worship the god you claim created it? I never stated it was not important, anymore than my home is not an important shelter for my flesh but it is not AS significant as the soul, anymore than my house is AS significant as 'me'

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Thu 05/19/11 12:36 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Thu 05/19/11 12:36 PM
most non believers I SPEAK TO,,,do find the flesh the most important thing,,, If the flesh were not important, then why worship the god you claim created it? I never stated it was not important, anymore than my home is not an important shelter for my flesh but it is not AS significant as the soul, anymore than my house is AS significant as 'me' I was under the impression that Christians believed that the soul was born when the body (the flesh) was born. If this is the case, you owe your life and soul to your flesh that gave birth to you. I don't believe that. I chose to incarnate here on earth and I am immortal. I have lived before. My soul is immortal and free. My body is an extension of me, manifested by me in order to operate in this physical world. I value it very much.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 12:39 PM
most non believers I SPEAK TO,,,do find the flesh the most important thing,,, If the flesh were not important, then why worship the god you claim created it? I never stated it was not important, anymore than my home is not an important shelter for my flesh but it is not AS significant as the soul, anymore than my house is AS significant as 'me' I was under the impression that Christians believed that the soul was born when the body (the flesh) was born. If this is the case, you owe your life and soul to your flesh that gave birth to you. I don't believe that. I chose to incarnate here on earth and I am immortal. I have lived before. My soul is immortal and free. My body is an extension of me, manifested by me in order to operate in this physical world. I value it very much. I value my body as well in THIS physical life, but with an understanding that this physical life is a blink of the spiritual eye and that the spirit HOUSED within my body is what is significant and must be protected, whether in a housing of flesh,,or not

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Thu 05/19/11 12:46 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Thu 05/19/11 12:47 PM
most non believers I SPEAK TO,,,do find the flesh the most important thing,,, If the flesh were not important, then why worship the god you claim created it? I never stated it was not important, anymore than my home is not an important shelter for my flesh but it is not AS significant as the soul, anymore than my house is AS significant as 'me' I was under the impression that Christians believed that the soul was born when the body (the flesh) was born. If this is the case, you owe your life and soul to your flesh that gave birth to you. I don't believe that. I chose to incarnate here on earth and I am immortal. I have lived before. My soul is immortal and free. My body is an extension of me, manifested by me in order to operate in this physical world. I value it very much. I value my body as well in THIS physical life, but with an understanding that this physical life is a blink of the spiritual eye and that the spirit HOUSED within my body is what is significant and must be protected, whether in a housing of flesh,,or not But Christians believe that THIS physical life is the only one they have ever had or ever will have. Think of it. You have only one shot to get it right. You have only one time to enjoy life and make the best of it. This single life is the only time you will live and breathe. The spirit, according to Christians, will feel no pain, not need to eat, and will exist forever. But will it actually LIVE? If so, how? Christians say that there is no sex in heaven, no need for food, housing, etc. How is that "living?" You yearn for existence in a place called heaven or paradise and you have no idea what that will be like. It's for eternity, so you better hope you like it. Anyway that's what you believe. I don't.

greeneyeman Joined Wed 04/13/11 Posts: 350	Thu 05/19/11 12:53 PM
It would be a delusion to belief in a faith that shows no evidence yet still practice it without logical means. This is why we believers (just not of a abrahamic religion) are wondering how one can follow such a book of contradictions in the first place. I see nothing wrong with that. To post verses from the bible of inconsistencies and still have believers of that faith refute or go around them also shows how brainwashed one can get when confronted in a community that only offers one faith system. That is what usually happens and why so many followers go to that source in the first place. Here is where I go and say open your minds and look at other alternatives that are much more peaceful and logical. Of course if you insist on following a mediterranian mythology that demands obedience then so be it. You can believe whatever you like, but you can't have people not express their opinions about a religion if they don't agree with it. It is our right to do so if we like. Therefore we see it as a persistent false psychotic belief that has indisputable evidence to the contrary. In other words it was interesting to see how people react to such laws set by the bible on this thread. The verses I presented shows the different mind sets we have in this world. Some find justice in the form of death correct and others don't for example. Now go look in that dictionary for another term since you do that so often on these threads. lol who says it shows 'no evidence'? evidence of what? there is no INDISPUTIBLE EVIDENCE disproving the whole bible anymore than there is proving ALL parts of it calling people psychotic and delusional because they have an understanding that we/you dont is rather,,,,,presumptious I see the persistence in biblical faith as 'psychotic' as a persistent issue of ego and need to feel superior that those of FAITH are so often accused of themself I dont refer to 'non believers' with such disdain, yet as a christian, I will be charged as being the 'judgmental' one ironic, isnt it? Many of the parables in the bible can be logically explained by scientists of many specific areas they specialize in. For example the natural catastrophes the bible mentions are explained by researchers of why they happened. From the great flood to the warnings the Jews gave the Egyptians to let them go free or catastrophes will happen have been explained as of many more stories the bible mentions. If we look at Jesus as a human in historical reference historians can explain what happened logically, but the supernatural events show no proof and so they are regarded as fairy tales. It is like reading a Brother Grimm's children story. They were created to scare the child to do the right things when around their parents, so many of the stories were horrifying. It wasn't until later that we changed the stories around to find approval by the parents to even read them in today's society. The bible is no different for it has you as an adult fear god if you are disobedient to him. There are many inconsistencies and contradictions showing that the bible cannot be taken seriously. Unfortunately many do for they use "faith" and only faith without using logic or researching to see if it is true or makes sense. And when they do research they use a set up mind and create something called Christian Science Organizations and call it liable and consistent to what actual scientists discover. Christians are great in taking credit for other cultures discoveries that never mention or use Christianity in the first place. They conquered them in the past and set up churches on top of their shrines. Christmas for example wasn't christian at first. Easter wasn't Christian at first either. They were pagan holidays that christians reused to gain more followers. When the little ice age happened in europe Christians blamed nonbelievers for the cold weather and lack of fertile land to grow food. The result was starvation and they burned non believers on the stake. Then the plague came from merchants bringing rats infested with them from Asia and 2/3 of the population died. Guess what! Christians blamed the heretics, infidels, heathens for this also. They didn't research what the actual cause could be. They believed god was punishing the human race instead. The same goes in Hawaii where the inhabitants surfed to honor the gods. Christian missionaries found that irritating to watch the inhabitants not work and enjoy surfing so they called it the devil's work and prohibited them to practice their religion and to surf. It wasn't until the 70s when a group of young college kids protested and brought back surfing again. What about the native americans and how much christianity was involved to change a whole cultures belief system. What about India's attempt to convert but failed due to Gandi's peaceful protests that drove out the christians there. and the list can go on and on for pages and pages. and yet you still follow this dangerous belief system. It is for us non believers of the abrahamic religion amazing to see people still follow regardless of evidence. So yes we find many christians delusional. Look at history of how Christianity has prevented brilliant minds from expressing what they discover. Fortunately we have had people in power to not let this happen anymore. For example since you say the bible mentions the earth is round (and maybe you are right with the very new versions) but if it was true then Galileo wouldn't have had to suffer so much expressing his view of what shape the earth is at the time. He would have not been persecuted and punished. He was warned when he got out not to publish any of his works! He still did though! So yes we have a hard time understanding your logic in believing in a book full of contradictions and full of blood on their hands. The logic of having catholic bishops not being able to marry and have children (and yes I know you are not catholic) but still represent one of the 38,000 denominations that practice in some way the same parables of the book. There are plenty of evidence showing the wrongs the bible teaches. You just choose not to believe it and I can understand since you (probably) only follow this belief system as your only guidance.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 12:58 PM
most non believers I SPEAK TO,,,do find the flesh the most important thing,,, If the flesh were not important, then why worship the god you claim created it? I never stated it was not important, anymore than my home is not an important shelter for my flesh but it is not AS significant as the soul, anymore than my house is AS significant as 'me' I was under the impression that Christians believed that the soul was born when the body (the flesh) was born. If this is the case, you owe your life and soul to your flesh that gave birth to you. I don't believe that. I chose to incarnate here on earth and I am immortal. I have lived before. My soul is immortal and free. My body is an extension of me, manifested by me in order to operate in this physical world. I value it very much. I value my body as well in THIS physical life, but with an understanding that this physical life is a blink of the spiritual eye and that the spirit HOUSED within my body is what is significant and must be protected, whether in a housing of flesh,,or not But Christians believe that THIS physical life is the only one they have ever had or ever will have. Think of it. You have only one shot to get it right. You have only one time to enjoy life and make the best of it. This single life is the only time you will live and breathe. The spirit, according to Christians, will feel no pain, not need to eat, and will exist forever. But will it actually LIVE? If so, how? Christians say that there is no sex in heaven, no need for food, housing, etc. How is that "living?" You yearn for existence in a place called heaven or paradise and you have no idea what that will be like. It's for eternity, so you better hope you like it. Anyway that's what you believe. I don't. LIFE and LIVING mean many things to many people I believe this to be our only MORTAL(with an ending) life I believe in a spirit with the potential for eternal life with no unfulfilled need and without many of the physical restraints of the flesh,,,yes

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 12:59 PM Edited by msharmony on Thu 05/19/11 01:06 PM
It would be a delusion to belief in a faith that shows no evidence yet still practice it without logical means. This is why we believers (just not of a abrahamic religion) are wondering how one can follow such a book of contradictions in the first place. I see nothing wrong with that. To post verses from the bible of inconsistencies and still have believers of that faith refute or go around them also shows how brainwashed one can get when confronted in a community that only offers one faith system. That is what usually happens and why so many followers go to that source in the first place. Here is where I go and say open your minds and look at other alternatives that are much more peaceful and logical. Of course if you insist on following a mediterranian mythology that demands obedience then so be it. You can believe whatever you like, but you can't have people not express their opinions about a religion if they don't agree with it. It is our right to do so if we like. Therefore we see it as a persistent false psychotic belief that has indisputable evidence to the contrary. In other words it was interesting to see how people react to such laws set by the bible on this thread. The verses I presented shows the different mind sets we have in this world. Some find justice in the form of death correct and others don't for example. Now go look in that dictionary for another term since you do that so often on these threads. lol who says it shows 'no evidence'? evidence of what? there is no INDISPUTIBLE EVIDENCE disproving the whole bible anymore than there is proving ALL parts of it calling people psychotic and delusional because they have an understanding that we/you dont is rather,,,,,presumptious I see the persistence in biblical faith as 'psychotic' as a persistent issue of ego and need to feel superior that those of FAITH are so often accused of themself I dont refer to 'non believers' with such disdain, yet as a christian, I will be charged as being the 'judgmental' one ironic, isnt it? Many of the parables in the bible can be logically explained by scientists of many specific areas they specialize in. For example the natural catastrophes the bible mentions are explained by researchers of why they happened. From the great flood to the warnings the Jews gave the Egyptians to let them go free or catastrophes will happen have been explained as of many more stories the bible mentions. If we look at Jesus as a human in historical reference historians can explain what happened logically, but the supernatural events show no proof and so they are regarded as fairy tales. It is like reading a Brother Grimm's children story. They were created to scare the child to do the right things when around their parents, so many of the stories were horrifying. It wasn't until later that we changed the stories around to find approval by the parents to even read them in today's society. The bible is no different for it has you as an adult fear god if you are disobedient to him. There are many inconsistencies and contradictions showing that the bible cannot be taken seriously. Unfortunately many do for they use "faith" and only faith without using logic or researching to see if it is true or makes sense. And when they do research they use a set up mind and create something called Christian Science Organizations and call it liable and consistent to what actual scientists discover. Christians are great in taking credit for other cultures discoveries that never mention or use Christianity in the first place. They conquered them in the past and set up churches on top of their shrines. Christmas for example wasn't christian at first. Easter wasn't Christian at first either. They were pagan holidays that christians reused to gain more followers. When the little ice age happened in europe Christians blamed nonbelievers for the cold weather and lack of fertile land to grow food. The result was starvation and they burned non believers on the stake. Then the plague came from merchants bringing rats infested with them from Asia and 2/3 of the population died. Guess what! Christians blamed the heretics, infidels, heathens for this also. They didn't research what the actual cause could be. They believed god was punishing the human race instead. The same goes in Hawaii where the inhabitants surfed to honor the gods. Christian missionaries found that irritating to watch the inhabitants not work and enjoy surfing so they called it the devil's work and prohibited them to practice their religion and to surf. It wasn't until the 70s when a group of young college kids protested and brought back surfing again. What about the native americans and how much christianity was involved to change a whole cultures belief system. What about India's attempt to convert but failed due to Gandi's peaceful protests that drove out the christians there. and the list can go on and on for pages and pages. and yet you still follow this dangerous belief system. It is for us non believers of the abrahamic religion amazing to see people still follow regardless of evidence. So yes we find many christians delusional. Look at history of how Christianity has prevented brilliant minds from expressing what they discover. Fortunately we have had people in power to not let this happen anymore. For example since you say the bible mentions the earth is round (and maybe you are right with the very new versions) but if it was true then Galileo wouldn't have had to suffer so much expressing his view of what shape the earth is at the time. He would have not been persecuted and punished. He was warned when he got out not to publish any of his works! He still did though! So yes we have a hard time understanding your logic in believing in a book full of contradictions and full of blood on their hands. The logic of having catholic bishops not being able to marry and have children (and yes I know you are not catholic) but still represent one of the 38,000 denominations that practice in some way the same parables of the book. There are plenty of evidence showing the wrongs the bible teaches. You just choose not to believe it and I can understand since you (probably) only follow this belief system as your only guidance. nothing you post here CONTRADICTS the bible in any irrefutable evidence,,there is a misconception that there is a CHOICE To be made between what is in the bible and what has been 'explained' elsewhere they correlate,,,and co exist I will concede this,,,the bible is COMPLEX , being both historical AND educational in its purpose, including both mens words, actions, laws and Gods delusional people may be drawn to such a book , much like they may be drawn to 'catcher in the rye' and they may take from it things I dont believe were ever meant to be the lesson or the interpretation but this does not, in any way, diminish the value of what there is to be learned from the bible anymore than the Mark David Chapmans of the world diminish the literary accomplishment that is the Catcher in the Rye or anymore than the suicides of people around the world diminish the value of the songs they may have been listening to in their depression which lead to their choice,,

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Thu 05/19/11 01:05 PM
I dont refer to 'non believers' with such disdain, yet as a christian, I will be charged as being the 'judgmental' one The very term "non believer" implies that you own the truth and that other people have no beliefs of any importance. That itself is disdain.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 01:07 PM
I dont refer to 'non believers' with such disdain, yet as a christian, I will be charged as being the 'judgmental' one The very term "non believer" implies that you own the truth and that other people have no beliefs of any importance. That itself is disdain. not If I am indeed referring to those who DONT BELIEVE in the significance of the bible, which is the topic at hand,,

greeneyeman Joined Wed 04/13/11 Posts: 350	Thu 05/19/11 01:09 PM
and there you have it wrong again. in the end what I am saying is why follow a belief system with such a bad reputation when there are better practices out there that truly advocate peace and love. Well I am done talking to caved minds. lol Have fun debating the bible. It is a belief system I hope fewer people follow in the future. It is necessary or we won't have much left on this planet to enjoy. The mediterrrenean mythologies are the cause of so much wars and unhappiness in this world. Research and you will see more and more evidence each day when you do. There is a reason why there are 38,000 denominations of the same lessons the bible offers. It is because people realize its inconsistencies and contradictions yet refuse to set the book down. They would rather change it around and get new followers. Afterall it is a good business and it is easy to prey on the weak to gain its followers. Good luck everyone and thank you for the debates. It has shown me how people think when it comes to justice and the Will of God when I posted the verses earlier.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 01:18 PM Edited by msharmony on Thu 05/19/11 01:21 PM
blacks also, in some circles, have 'bad' reputations but that will never cause me to feel a need to disassociate myself from being black why should I disassociate from my faith because some give it a 'bad reputation' and in the end, what I am saying is , if I am just as peaceful, loving, logical, productive, law abiding as those who believe one of those 'other' faiths why should you care? why try to persuade someones beliefs if the end result is not going to be any better than what they already had going?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Thu 05/19/11 01:37 PM
blacks also, in some circles, have 'bad' reputations but that will never cause me to feel a need to disassociate myself from being black why should I disassociate from my faith because some give it a 'bad reputation' and in the end, what I am saying is , if I am just as peaceful, loving, logical, productive, law abiding as those who believe one of those 'other' faiths why should you care? why try to persuade someones beliefs if the end result is not going to be any better than what they already had going? Comparing a race to a religion is not really a good analogy. I don't want to persuade Christians to chose another belief, I would be happy if they would simply follow the teachings of the savior they worship and stop killing people.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Thu 05/19/11 01:46 PM
blacks also, in some circles, have 'bad' reputations but that will never cause me to feel a need to disassociate myself from being black why should I disassociate from my faith because some give it a 'bad reputation' and in the end, what I am saying is , if I am just as peaceful, loving, logical, productive, law abiding as those who believe one of those 'other' faiths why should you care? why try to persuade someones beliefs if the end result is not going to be any better than what they already had going? Comparing a race to a religion is not really a good analogy. I don't want to persuade Christians to chose another belief, I would be happy if they would simply follow the teachings of the savior they worship and stop killing people. correlating killing to christianity is a false representation of reality,,, I would be happy if humans would do so regardless of their beliefs,,,,stop killing that is I dont wish to pursuade anyone either, I am sharing my beliefs(usually at the prompting of someones question or inquiry of why or how I could believe such things)