In another thread, a woman supported a man, and she put in her reply this, partly:

You have your work cut out for you
without the support of your family.
But, it can be done.
And the measure of a man is
not his family.

It is not the family that is the measure of a man.

What IS then the measure of a man? I mean of a person, not just the male, but the female as well.

What is it for you that makes you accept a feller or a gal without reservation, what is it about yourself that you wish to become so you can look up to yourself as a man or woman, what is it that you think ...

is the measure of a human.

Religion? Smarts? Wherewithal? Honesty and sincerity? Good looks? Making the best of the wrost in a situation? Love of god? Love of children? Love for all living things?

An ability to lead? To follow? to see what's best for the group?

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In your life, what is it that makes a man a man and a woman a woman? What innate quality helps him or her achieve the best under all circumstances?

Do you have any role models to show your point, who perhaps helped you establish your opion, by speech or by example?

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Go wild.

I suppose that's good then, since I haven't got one.



I think this concept is flawed. It's too inherently self-limiting. I can't imagine that there could ever be a universal standard (I'm talking about in my own mind here) that would incorporate the idea that "THIS is the measure of a man." All men are not the same. I'm in no position to dictate relative values, statuses, or standards. Let them be who and what they are. My interpretation of it is irrelevant.



This doesn't happen.



I don't think in those terms. I don't wish to "become" anything other than what I am and what I will become, and I have no idea what that will be -- I don't try to steer it or guide it.

I don't feel any need to look up to myself. It is what it is, and I don't see any need to overanalyze it.



I suppose everyone makes their own determinations on this. I don't see anything much beyond a very surface-level, superficial futility in all of the things you listed.

If I have to define my worth in terms of a phraseology that other people can grasp, then it isn't even worth doing.



This presupposes that the "group" being referenced necessarily has some inherent value or worth in and of itself. I don't operate under that assumption.



Biology. Tradition. Social indoctrination.



I can't answer that. I've never known anyone like that.



I abhor the whole concept of role models, as, again, it is entirely too self-limiting. We can learn from the words and actions of others without the need to be like them, to base parts of our lives on parts of theirs.

A good man is merciful and has compassion for those that he can kick the living crap out of.

A good man makes a conscious effort to better himself.

A good man will help when he can and stand up for those who can't.

A good man, is a good man even when it is not convenient.


The above statements do not apply to the apathetic or douche bags.

My measure is about 5 foot 7 inches, I'm not sure how that converts internationally, but it's the measure of this man.

Seriously though, I pretty much agree with Lex.

Deja vu :-)

For me it is very simple.

I measure a man by how he meets
his own standards.
Not mine, they are for me.
But his own.

I'd always heard the average measure of a man was about six inches.

I gave up measuring men and women years ago.

My life has become much easier now that I don't have to walk around with that yardstick in my pocket.

Depends on the man.

the measure of a person for me lies in their self integrity, honesty, and treatment of others

if I absolutely HAD to sum it up , that is

Heck, I just respect any guy who's capable of telling the truth.

the human condition is so complex, it is no easy to sum it up to any absolute

I admire men and women mostly when they do their very best to do the right thing even when tempted to do the wrong thing which is so easy and so gratifying. to be kind, compassionate and most of all truthful. we all screw up sometimes, but owning up to it, telling the truth is a rarity these days. so i would have to say just honesty and when and if you do wrong, sincerely making a great effort to make amends.

in circumference---

The Invitation.


It doesn’t interest me what you do for a living.
I want to know what you ache for
and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart’s longing.

It doesn’t interest me how old you are.
I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool
for love
for your dream
for the adventure of being alive.

It doesn’t interest me
what planets are squaring your moon...
I want to know if you have touched
the centre of your own sorrow
if you have been opened by life’s betrayals
or have become shrivelled and closed
from fear of further pain.

I want to know
if you can sit with pain
mine or your own
without moving to hide it
or fade it
or fix it.

I want to know
if you can be with joy
mine or your own
if you can dance with wildness
and let the ecstasy fill you
to the tips of your fingers and toes
without cautioning us
to be careful
to be realistic
to remember the limitations
of being human.

It doesn’t interest me
if the story you are telling me is true.
I want to know if you can
disappoint another to be true to yourself.
If you can bear the accusation of betrayal
and not betray your own soul.
If you can be faithless and therefore trustworthy.

I want to know if you can see Beauty
even when it is not pretty every day.
And if you can source your own life
from its presence.

I want to know if you can live with failure
yours and mine
and still stand at the edge of the lake
and shout to the silver of the full moon,
“Yes.”

It doesn’t interest me
to know where you live
or how much money you have.
I want to know if you can get up
after the night of grief and despair
weary and bruised to the bone
and do what needs to be done
to feed the children.

It doesn’t interest me
who you know
or how you came to be here.
I want to know if you will stand
in the centre of the fire
with me
and not shrink back.

It doesn’t interest me
where or what or with whom
you have studied.
I want to know
what sustains you
from the inside
when all else falls away.

I want to know
if you can be alone
with yourself
and if you truly like
the company you keep
in the empty moments.

Oriah


This is how I take the measure of a man...

That is awesome..........nothing more needs to be said..........

Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Very glad you all replied, and with the replies that you gave.

Everyone who said there is no absolute measure, was right. Everyone who said it's stupid to walk around with an external stick and put it to your actions to see if you measure up was right. I loved the poem by Oriah, it was absolutely wonderful. I loved the answers by those who cringed but still answered the questions. I loved the playful lewdness of some others. I love this group, each and everyone here, even that one with the bald patch, and the other one with the stutter, and that smiley one with the kneecap replacement post-op.

Really.

My take on this topic is to agree with everyone, because the measure of a human is not absolute; in fact, to most normal people the idea or the concept that a measure exists is absurd.

I first heard the expression when someone read up a poem by Rudyard Kipling, in which he posed this question, and then answered it, and his standards were so high that no human being could fulfil them.

My reaction at the time was, hey, why bother.

And then some years later I realized that my life is miserable because I expect too much of my feller earthlings, and the impossible from myself.

So while I was rejecting the idea in theory, I was practicing it big time.

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I am most moved by movies and books in which they show the hero to battle some invasion of aliens, not from space necessarily, and in the end it turns out he or she is one of the ones he or she is battling to the bitter end. The hero is kept ignorant of his role by his people who placed him as a mole, or by natural laws, like in ghosts stories. His ignorance is revealed to him in the last five minutes of his life, usually. A few science fiction stories made it tragic for the hero.

Why is it that we battle the innermost, most essential of our make-up? why is it that we hail and praise those qualities that are either impossible for us to attain, or else are deep down in our honest depths of sincerety, we hate, and find abominable?

Is my fighting to be funny because I enjoy it, or because I hate being laughed at? Because my heart goes out to those weak ones that are the prey of public ridicule, or because I have my pet cockroaches I like to laugh at? Is it this why I hate George W. Bush, because I agree with all insanity?

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This thread is a stepping stone of my self-development. The last 48 hours I've been weird on this site, more so than usual. I think I am approaching a cathartic moment or time span. If I brought and pulled you into it against your will, I apologize. There are no answers that I can provide at this time, as to where this is heading, because that's a mystery for me too. I don't know what's happening, all I know is that the time-emotion coordinates of the cosmic relativistic space are being pushed out of their regular shapes around me. Yes, there were times I was insane in my life, and I can't even tell you if I am shaping up to a huge nervous breakdown, or to its opposite. The whole thing is in flux. You guys are great in helping me, by just acknowledging my existence, and being watchful of my struggle.

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I had some nervous breakdowns in the past, and they shaped up totally differently from how I feel now. That's why it's such a huge mystery. Is it a new kind of breakdown I am headed for, or a new breakthrough?

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Thanks, peoples, for being so patient with me. The measure of a man is what he or she decides it to be, but she knows she can't be wrong or right. A totally arbitrary decision for which there is no realistic test or benchmarkt to compare to for fitness or for truth.

Maybe that's what life is all about?

I don't know. I know at least that I have asked some questions, and that's the progress from 24 hours ago, when I never even suspected I'd have questions.

it's like standing on top of a ridge, and you know something will happen, but not at all sure what it will be: an earthquake, a tsunami, a volcanic eruption. You don't know if it will make you perish, disappear, or become stronger and wiser. You don't know if the thing would even happen, because you know premonitions are 100% unreliable.

You stand there, watch for the signs, your senses are sharpened, your perception has become very keen, and you just wait, perched, and going through the motions of every day living, while you expect with each of your steps to pick up clues from the deep bowels of the earth underfoot.

What's it going to be tomorrow? Engulfed in flames of insight, or picking up debris in my backyard that winter's left behind?

heck if I know. It's fun, though, in fact, the most fun I've ever had in my life.

While I agree that the standard varies from person to person, I was prepared to answer with my own personal definition. I've caught flak for it in real life, and some have tried to make me change my ways. Truth is, I look at them, and decide I don't want to be like them.

However, three people basically summed up my position for me:

1) Krupa
2) Msharmony
3) JulieMP

Honesty, integrity, compassion, self-betterment, and making the right choices in bad circumstances.

Granted, this is a summary rather than a complete definition, but there is one thing I would like to add:

The willingness to stand up for himself, meaning there are those who constantly want to take advantage of us, or to sway us to their cause. A man will stand his ground for his beliefs, but if those beliefs are proven wrong, he will admit it....accept it. A real man does not look for confrontation, nor will he shy away from it when confrontation is necessary.

The point is, so few people have all these qualities. So many like to judge a man just by one or two of them. This why is past cultures often had a code of honor, be it Chivalry or Bushido. This is also why many religions exist: Judaism, Christianity, Taoism, Shintoism, Buddhism, etc. Each try to teach morality....an expected code of conduct that will benefit others as well as themselves. And yet, so very few can live up to such lofty standards.

To me, I guess it's just someone who is true to themselves and what they believe.
I find it really sad when someone compromises their beliefs for someone else.
To me its also the compassion, love and understanding they have for others, their abilty to stand firm on whatever they decide.
I guess to me its