Honey, it's your thread, keep on topic then and stop attacking everyone

Very good points indeed.

I agree with the spiritual stagnation of unchanging fundamentalist religions. Although in truth, I've seen people in such religions change their views dramatically. For example I've known Christians who have become increasingly liberal with their interpretations of their scriptures over they years.

I'm totally open to anything including atheism. That's the beauty of being agnostic.

I like to say that I'm intellectually agnostic (i.e. without absolute logical knowledge of spiritually), but I'm intuitively spiritual (i.e. In intuitively feel like there's something mystical going on that logic may not be able to reach).


But the most important thing to me is that my "belief" or my "open plausibility acceptance of reality's truths", is sincere and honest.

That is the most important thing for me.

I'm not about to lie to any God and pretend that I believe in it when I can't possible know. Agnosticism is the only sincere honest truth I can even offer to any God that might exist.

First I must be honest with myself.

And then I must take that exact same honesty and offer it to any "God" that might exist. For anything less would be a lie!

And why would I want to lie to a "God" or to myself?

That would be ludicrous.

i thought you wanted heaven?

I do want heaven. Something is seen as more value when earned. Something is seen as more importance when earned. If EVERYTHING in the world was just handed to you on a silver planet, would you see these things as important? Even if say something broke, and you could just send it in for a new one? No you would not put them on the same value as you would if you worked long and hard for these things. I want heaven, but I also wish to earn it rightfully. If I do not go to heaven, I obviously didn't do well enough to earn it and do not deserve it. I'll be contempt in that decision. Would you rather work for what you go? Or would you again rather them handed to you on a silver plate? Would be more prone to take heaven for granted if it was just handed. Just as Adam and Eve did. They took the Garden of Eden for granted and wanted more. I do not wish to be like that. I would much rather earn my way to the paradise rather then it just handed out. Would make it more special as well.

earn?.... i thought all you had to do is accept jesus, and you are in... so if you live your as a sinner, then accept jesus on your deathbed, your in... where is the earn at?

Yes if one accepts Jesus full heartedly on their death bed they would be saved by the grace of God. But I'm not on my deathbed. You accept Jesus as lord and savior. And as Jesus being your lord you would obey the laws he laid out before us. Again yes if one was on their deathbed, they wouldn't have that chance so the grace of God would save them.

That all depends on which religious zealot you're currently worshiping.

A pogrom is the government sanctioning and encouraging a mob attack against a certain group of people. It usually leads to hundreds if not thousands of deaths.

In my example, Stalin's pogroms led to millions of deaths.

To me it is simply a reminder for when an atheist or secularist says their way of doing things is more advantageous than another.

I can certainly point out Sudan as an example of religion induced pogrom that has killed hundreds of thousands as well.

Both examples are the result of man's inability to accept others beliefs.

We are individuals with the capability to think for ourselves.

It seems the worst in human beings comes out when he or she feels they need to take it upon themselves to dictate what someone else should believe.

I agree totally.

or to define what is 'logical'

The advantage of unbelief is that you can have your life free of sin?

Sin is separation from God. If you don't believe in God, you are sinning. You may not want to accept it, but that is the truth. In fact, Hell was created for people who do not believe in God. If you don't acknowledge Him now, why would He acknowledge you later?

Hell is a myth, a man-made concept that has zero scriptural support...

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

"Hell is a myth, a man-made concept that has zero scriptural support..."

What??? How many verses would you like to back this one up?

Hell is mentioned often in scripture. There are different interpreations of what the term referred to though.

Where do you get the idea that "sin" is separation from God?
"Sin" bottom line, is defined as disobedience to God.

Jeanniebean, when you disobey God, what are you doing? You are separating from Him. First you separate; then, you disobey.

I deal with causes, not effects.

Isaiah 59:2 (King James Version)

2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear

Very nice Abra "In intuitively feel like there's something mystical going on that logic may not be able to reach" I particularly like that.

I was also thinking about the relationship between a being called God whose sole obsession seems to be the Earthly creatures it created?

For example: It's quite obvious that our little physical human brain would lack the capability to be as knowledgable and intelligent as that creator. HOWEVER - from the time I was 13 I felt as though the god of my Christian upbringing thought humans must be incapable of any intellect at all.

The inflexiblity of the written documents that make faith an objective truth to so many poeple, seems like a condescending way for a loving and respectful god to deal with intellectual creatures like humans. The very idea that the written word is to be inflexible shows a lack of knowledge on the part of god. Did he not expect that humans would advance and need to be flexible to the changing world around us?