We do agree on this. The debate could be cut short on both sides if people could grasp one thing. I apologize in advance if it sounds pretentious but,,,


Just as pastors are held to a higher standard of responsbility than their congregation, or teachers are held to a higher standard than their kids, or even HUMAN parents have more expected of them then their children.... GOD has a higher standard of responsibility than man, and with it he has completely different 'rights' or 'privileges'. His laws and his salvation are meant for believers, not for everyone. Not everyone is going to believe, it is written in His word. Very few will even live by his word, because it isnt easy.

Gods word and his laws and the sacrifice of his only begotten son are given to those who believe and for those who do not believe,,it was never meant to apply.

Because I believe God gave me life, I do believe he should be completely free to take it. I never understand why those who dont believe in him spend so much energy trying to explain their reasons or understand others reasons. I believe Santa is very much a fictional character and I just wouldnt use my energy trying to get someone to explain to me why they think he is real, nor would I be offended if they said he wouldnt bring me gifts. However, many non believers (not you) seem to be down right offended if it is implied they will not 'go to heaven' . How could I be offended that I wont be invited someplace I dont even believe exists.....?

you're still stuck on the legal definition of murder. legal refers to laws that are created simply because we cannot all agree on what is morally right and wrong. in this country it is unlawful for a husband to kill his wife and so we use the legal definition of murder. but in saudi arabia it is not unlawful for a husband to kill his wife if she dishonors him so legally it is not murder. but both acts are killing inhumanely and barberously in my view and i'm sure in yours. besides, legally an accomplice to murder is every bit as guilty as the person who commits the act of murder. a group of klansmen who hang an innocent black man are all guilty of murder even though only one put the rope around his neck and hauled him up. the others stood idly by and allowed the murder to happen. it then follows that if god allowed jesus to be crucified, god is an accomplice to his murder and every bit as guilty as the romans who nailed him to the cross.

msharmony...that god is held to a higher standard only means that he shouldn't do anything that he expect those beneath him not to do ....if God say "thou shalt not kill" ..then since he is of a higher standard he should set an example and not kill ...

if God has not the power to follow his own rules and not kill then why would he expect those of lesser power than him to be caplable of doing the same

We can debate standards and semantics all day. I do believe, on this topic, there will be no compromise or further understanding of either side. Judging by your posts in these forums, you are firmly anti faith, which is fine. To make another analogy, God can say to his children do not kill, becuase to kill we must actively take a life. God does not directly take lives so much as he allows them to 'expire' and he even gives man the free will to take their own or the lives of others, because its part of the package.

As my father may have told me as a child not to drive the car(for reasons at the time which were only understandable to him) , my heavenly father tells me not to kill and I trust his reasons are completely just and for my better interest. The do as I say and not as I do doctrine actually DOES have legitimate applications.

msharmony...cowboy said that Jesus didn't die on the cross and you praise cowboy for his faith ....so now why are you now saying that God gave his son if cowboy claim that Jesus didn't die

also Jesus dying depends on which belief you follow ...those that believe that Jesus is the son, shouls also know that only God can take a life...which means that Jesus could only die if God let him die

for those that believe that Jesus is God and since only god can take a life means that Jesus as God killed himself

This is another argument about semantics, 'Jesus', 'Lord', 'God', 'death'...etc...

For me, I believe Jesus is Gods only begotten son. I believe Jesus is Lord and God is Lord. I believe there is spiritual death and death of the flesh. The flesh Jesus was born in died but his spirit did not, in that sense cowboy is not completely wrong. Cowboy appears young and I give him the leeway to be mistaken on some things, things I am sure he will gain more knowledge about as he gets older, as we all do(hopefully.) I don't, however, see any errors he may have made in his posts as 'lies', they are just his beliefs and interpretations.

msharmony...if I'm anti-faith then that would make you anti-logic ....it seems the only dispute is that you believe God has the right to kill anyone and not face any type of consequences only praise ...and going by biblical law "thou shalt not kill"..it can only equate to the god performong actions of evil...the phenonmeon is how believers find ways to justify this evil

To give me a vision of what my future would be.

I dont believe anything I posted to be illogical, I just believe we obviously have different interpretations. Perhaps it would have offended less if I had said you seem anti God as opposed to anti faith? Anyhow, there are no consequences for God as there is none higher than him to impose such consequences. I give him praise for giving me life and the free will to live it how I choose. I give him praise for loving me so completely and for giving his only Begotten son. I give him praise for any number of blessings I see around me daily and have experienced in my life. As to Evil, it is not a concept which I strongly believe in when applied to human beings. God gave us laws for a reason. I believe his reasons are love and protection and I chose to put my trust in him based upon this. The laws he gave were not laws for Himself , as I said, he is not human nor living a human existence. Whatever laws he might make for himself, He has no obligation to share with me as I do not live his existence. As I have posted before, I do not expect my faith in these things to make sense to those who just dont see it but I also dont believe them illogical for their difference in perception. So, I would disagree with your post that I am anti logic, anymore than you are. You just dont believe in God, which, as I said before, does not offend me at all or make me think any less of you.

it would be better to call me anti-faith since "faith" is all that gives God existence ....also what you posted that was illogical is that since God gave you life then he is free to take it but yet this same option doesn't apply to your parents and it also applies that your parents didn't give you life which is somewhat of a disrespect

also what's illogical is how you are justifing god's acts of evil as being good but yet if man kills it is evil .....that implies that no matter which human kill for whatever reason they are committing an act of evil when even God himself has command humans to kill

I think you are REALLY missing all the details of my posts. I did not post anything that really included the concepts of Good or Evil as those are VERY VERY subjective terms to the user. I also posted that not all killing is the same , as in killing to save your own life being justifiable whereas killing because you dont care for anothers views as not nearly as justifiable. I tend to not participate in debates of good and evil because I think they are useless terms. There are good decisions and bad decisions and as humans we make our share of both.

My parents were the vessel through which God gave me life and he instructs me to honor them, which I do. I do not feel this a disrespect to God or my parents.

in reality there is no good and evil which is why Man and God (if you believe) make laws or commandments...but the debate started when cowboy claimed that God didn't drown any newborn babies in the Great Flood because all the babies were all on Noah's Ark and when he then made the claim that Jesus didn't die on the cross ..which both is incorrect according to the belief ...instead of correcting cowboy you instead claim that his spreading of such false information was refreshing

I believe Cowboy made some mistakes in his posts. I did not say false information was refreshing, I commented that Cowboy's FAITH was refreshing.

so you consider Cowboy's claim that Jesus not dying on the cross is a mistake that believers accidently make?...when it is supposedly one of the main issues that Christianity is based on...even you said that God gave his only begotton son......

so it's obvious that either Cowboy was intentionly giving out false information to deceive or didn't bother to read the story ....it doesn't take faith to do either...it takes lack of faith

Sigh ,, funches,, Cowboys statement that Jesus did not die on the cross is not proof of deception or not reading, it is just a difference in how you interpret DEATH. Jesus had everlasting life he was here in the beginning and is the word. He has always been the word and always will be the word. To define the WORD as dying is a tricky thing to do,,it cannot actually die in the way we think of death. Jesus, in his earthly form, his earthly flesh, was destroyed and died on the cross. Jesus, however still lives and so , in that sense, did not die. The semantics of all this is no cause to assume Cowboys faith is flawed.

according to the belief Jesus died on the cross ...the bible did not claim that those that witness this event were debating on how death was interpeted or were placing bets on if Jesus was dead or not ....death is death...everyone agreed that Jesus died was place in the tomb and then rose from the dead ...if that is what happen according to the belief then to claim otherwise is lack of faith in the bible

If we know what our future will be we might lose all tasteful sense to live . Then what shall we do if we can not change it ?!!!.

God...why didn't you make it clearer as to your rule on judging others?

yes funches Jesus "passed away" but he did not "die". Death is only when one goes to hell. His mortal body just passed away is what i was getting at.

when a mortal body paas away that means you are dead ...it is according to the bible that explains what happen to Jesus after he died ....this means that everyone faces and enters death and that death is a process everyone goes through not only those that supposedly go to hell ...