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| Topic: A few changes to the system | |
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Daniel, but what you are overlooking and not quite grasping is that we get it. I get it, but what you don't get is who shall make that decision???? We should judge others by whose standards??? yours??? mine??? my brothers - exwife??? the man on the moon? who's standards?? Who shall dictate what is and what is not a contribution? should the contributions be on a full-time basis, part time basis??? what exceptions??? why only those exceptions (follow?)
Give someone/anyone (the govt) that power there goes our freedom of choice. People should be responsible for themselves, help their fellow neighbors, blahblahblahblah, but that's my own lil perception of what the world should do, not a reality. I say lead by setting example. Don't try to tell another person what's best for them, show them the options, we all have choices. (jmo) Like I said earlier, I am not trying to say JUST college or military. PLEASE go back and read over and you will see I have done so many times now. First, "college" was a bad term. I should have said something along the lines of education, whether it be college, trade school, apprenticeship, etc. I have also conceded that there are many ways to be contributing to the community without immediately going on with your education. My main point was and still is that the people who are NOT contributing need to stop being coddled, and given break after break after break. There comes a point when the community needs to recognize that someone is lazy and playing the system, and give them an ultimatum to shape up or ship out, whether that be to go into the military or leave the community, whatever. And the benefits need to STOP completely after so long. For those in my circumstances, thankfully there are other resources, that though they take time to tap into, are available and will remove you from welfare. And personally in my case, where I am a custodial parent of a special needs child, community service is a very valid option to help earn the assistance you get. now to actually answer your question lol, I would not be upset about it at all. If you remember, I stated I am doing what I can to get back into school, already. I have also stated that if I could, I would go back into the military in a heart beat, so either or it wouldn't bother me, beecause I am already holding myself to those standards. To answer Mo's first question, what I do to better the community right now, is volunteer at my church and around town helping people who need physical labor done and can not do it themselves. I am helping to renovate my church's fellowship hall, to bring it back up to the glory it should already be in. Other than that, and anything else people need done, I am looking continually for an employer who will hire me knowing that I can only work Monday through Friday from 8am until 2:30pm, and have to be able to leave unexpectedly during those hours if my sons school calls, for an indefinite period of time, due to his health. he can not be put in any type of day care situation as he can not cope with it. He does have problems in school as well, which is why I need to be able to leave unexpectedly, and can not guaruntee when I come back. As far as doing what I can to get out of this pit, I am working at getting enrolled in the local college next year, during school hours, probably half time to begin with, and working towards a counseling degree, and a ministry degree. This way when I am done, if I have to pick my son up from school, I will normally be able to take him right with me to work (no I would not be working out of a doctors office). I am also trying to start a radio station going on the internet, so as to bring in minimal income from sponsors, so I can hopefully get off of the assistance in the somewhat near future. As you can see, I do not sit around telling people they should do this this this and that, and then do nothing myself. Although there are way too many people out there that do this. And before you ask, yes if I could get back in the military I would in a heartbeat. And to risk sounding confrontational, though I don't mean to be, to "force randomized drug testing for welfare recipients" can be seen as a form of discrimination. Now don't get me wrong. I agree with you completely, that it should be done, and I would be first in line every day to pee in a cup, while I am receiving assistance. I am just trying to point out that no matter the reasoning behind it, ANYTHING can be taken as removal of freedom of choice, discrimination, etc. That is why I say that as a society we need to step up to the plate and determine what our standards are going to be, and actually enforce them. If my ideas are not part of the final decision, so be it, that's democracy in action by everyone voting on it. But something needs to be done, and something needs to be done about those who do abuse the system. Great job Daniel  But knowing your circumstance and your limitations on work - how would you like for someone to tell you either go to school or go to the military, knowing you cannot do either full time. Technically you do have a choice - would you like someone to make up your mind for you without knowing that both choices will affect your child? and/or having no regard for your child? |
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That's just it, you missed completely what I said. I can not put my son into any of those are programs due to his issues. Rest assured this isn't me making the decision; it is his doctor, and social services both. To answer Mo's first question, what I do to better the community right now, is volunteer at my church and around town helping people who need physical labor done and can not do it themselves. I am helping to renovate my church's fellowship hall, to bring it back up to the glory it should already be in. Other than that, and anything else people need done, I am looking continually for an employer who will hire me knowing that I can only work Monday through Friday from 8am until 2:30pm, and have to be able to leave unexpectedly during those hours if my sons school calls, for an indefinite period of time, due to his health. he can not be put in any type of day care situation as he can not cope with it. He does have problems in school as well, which is why I need to be able to leave unexpectedly, and can not guaruntee when I come back. That's every single parents' situation. Single parents still work full time. There's after school care and babysitters. Just saying. I did not miss completely what you said. I know single parents that have autistic children, disabled children and children with issues. Yes, they get called to school more often then people with children that don't have those issues. They still work. They use their sick time and vacation time. I get called to my child's school when my child has an asthma attack, gets sick or gets injured.  |
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are we not missing a whole class of people???? such as garbage men, postal workers, waiters, etc. they provide a service without the need for extra education.
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are we not missing a whole class of people???? such as garbage men, postal workers, waiters, etc. they provide a service without the need for extra education. i totally mentioned all those peeps, rose...the answer was given. he says that those jobs will be filled by those who are going to college or by those that have a degree. |
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are we not missing a whole class of people???? such as garbage men, postal workers, waiters, etc. they provide a service without the need for extra education. i totally mentioned all those peeps, rose...the answer was given. he says that those jobs will be filled by those who are going to college or by those that have a degree. gotcha....I didn't read all since I'm kinda out of it. why need a degree to do those things??? those jobs are just as vital to the country as jobs with degrees IMO. I don't know...I don't get it. |
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are we not missing a whole class of people???? such as garbage men, postal workers, waiters, etc. they provide a service without the need for extra education. i totally mentioned all those peeps, rose...the answer was given. he says that those jobs will be filled by those who are going to college or by those that have a degree. gotcha....I didn't read all since I'm kinda out of it. why need a degree to do those things??? those jobs are just as vital to the country as jobs with degrees IMO. I don't know...I don't get it. agreed. my daughter is a bartender and a single mom. she works nights so that she doesn't miss the days with her son...i get him in the evenings and put him to bed. she picks him up while he's still sleeping and takes him home. she can easily clear two to four hundred per night, so she only has to work a few nights a week. she's not on welfare and has a decent life. |
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My son just graduated high school. he wants to take a year off from school (to rest his brain lol) and work. We didn't let him work while going to school because we wanted him to concentrate on school. now if he gets at least 6 months of work behind him...he can apply to be a jailer. he wants to do that before getting a degree for law enforcement. I see nothing wrong with it or think it's anyone's business. he isn't being helped by the government so what he does (as long as legal) is no one's business.
not everyone is cut out for college (or more education) or the military. some people just want to work. |
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My son just graduated high school. he wants to take a year off from school (to rest his brain lol) and work. We didn't let him work while going to school because we wanted him to concentrate on school. now if he gets at least 6 months of work behind him...he can apply to be a jailer. he wants to do that before getting a degree for law enforcement. I see nothing wrong with it or think it's anyone's business. he isn't being helped by the government so what he does (as long as legal) is no one's business. not everyone is cut out for college (or more education) or the military. some people just want to work. I agree. And you know, if my son wanted to take a year or 2 off before continuining his education just to travel the world, picking up odd jobs etc, I'd be all for that. Frankly, I think forcing 18 year old kids to decide what they want to do with the rest of their lives is absolutely ludicrous. There are many, many unhappy adults who go through school, work for a few years and discovery they HATE what they're doing. I know that if I had had an opportunity to really figure out who I was and my place in this world, my choices would have been VASTLY different. No regrets, but still. |
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very true Suz. I always knew what I wanted to do straight out of high school. I hated college myself. I wanted to start working ASAP. but that is just me. but it's between me, my son and his dad as to what he does now....and us parents don't even really have a say for that matter lol
but there are jobs out there that don't need extra education but are just as important to keeping this country turning. I have seen "educated" people belittle those jobs...but without people to do them...the educated would have to do it themselves. as long as they are doing an honest job....I can respect those people. |
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are we not missing a whole class of people???? such as garbage men, postal workers, waiters, etc. they provide a service without the need for extra education. i totally mentioned all those peeps, rose...the answer was given. he says that those jobs will be filled by those who are going to college or by those that have a degree. gotcha....I didn't read all since I'm kinda out of it. why need a degree to do those things??? those jobs are just as vital to the country as jobs with degrees IMO. I don't know...I don't get it. There is a good question and answer all in one. why DO garbage men, and waiters, postal workers etc all need degrees to do their job when it is all unskilled labor? The problem here is it is already in affect. No, it isn't so widespread that every last job is this way, but trust me when I say I have done a fair bit of traveling across the good ole us of a over the years and it is getting that way fast. There are numerous places I can name, Michigan being one of them, where restaurants require their dishwasher to have a MINIMUM of two years college (also known as your associates degree), along with 8 years of experience. Garbage truck operators are being required to get a degree now in some places. I saw five gas stations, all different companies just last month that refused to hire a cashier/pump attendant if they did not have a minimum of five years experience in a gas station. This is all ridiculous folks. Every where you turn around, you have to have an associates or higher now, even for unskilled labor. This is why I suggested that you be required to continue on for two years of college in some way shape or form. a 2 year degree means nothing anymore; it is a stepping stone towards your bachelors. which reminds me, to be a seceratary atthe soial services office, you have to have a bachelors degree in social work and five years experience. That's in New York, Michigan AND Indiana. I only name these states as I have seen it myself in all three states. In order to answer the phone, schedule appointments, check a person in, and refer them to the right person, you have to have a bachelors degree and five years experience; and no these people do not do the actual social services job. They are just secerataries (no offense to other seceretaries meant). And this is what we are allowing to happen. Yes we are allowing it to happen. And yuo ask me who will make the decisions on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable behavior? WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA will decide. It is US who have the power to put our politicians in office, and it is us who has the power to remove them in the end. If we all got together and actually stopped listenening to the politicians tell us what is and is not right, we would be able to put a person in office that we all agreed upon who would do what we wanted done. So your answer is, WE will have the power to decide what is and is not acceptable contribution to the society. |
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So your answer is, WE will have the power to decide what is and is not acceptable contribution to the society. Ay, there's the rub. Because you and I have VASTLY differing ideas of what an acceptable contribution is. Every single person will have their own thoughts on what it is. Who is right? Who is wrong? The welfare cheat can probably give you a gazillion justifications for why they do what they do and why it's good for society. Ditto a habitual criminal. Ditto an attorney, someone who plays poker for a living, a doctor who writes himself prescriptions for his painkiller addiction, etc etc etc. If you take away freedom of choice for all, you help a few drag themselves up while dragging the vast majority down. |
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To answer Mo's first question, what I do to better the community right now, is volunteer at my church and around town helping people who need physical labor done and can not do it themselves. I am helping to renovate my church's fellowship hall, to bring it back up to the glory it should already be in. Other than that, and anything else people need done, I am looking continually for an employer who will hire me knowing that I can only work Monday through Friday from 8am until 2:30pm, and have to be able to leave unexpectedly during those hours if my sons school calls, for an indefinite period of time, due to his health. he can not be put in any type of day care situation as he can not cope with it. He does have problems in school as well, which is why I need to be able to leave unexpectedly, and can not guaruntee when I come back. As far as doing what I can to get out of this pit, I am working at getting enrolled in the local college next year, during school hours, probably half time to begin with, and working towards a counseling degree, and a ministry degree. This way when I am done, if I have to pick my son up from school, I will normally be able to take him right with me to work (no I would not be working out of a doctors office). I am also trying to start a radio station going on the internet, so as to bring in minimal income from sponsors, so I can hopefully get off of the assistance in the somewhat near future. As you can see, I do not sit around telling people they should do this this this and that, and then do nothing myself. Although there are way too many people out there that do this. And before you ask, yes if I could get back in the military I would in a heartbeat. And to risk sounding confrontational, though I don't mean to be, to "force randomized drug testing for welfare recipients" can be seen as a form of discrimination. Now don't get me wrong. I agree with you completely, that it should be done, and I would be first in line every day to pee in a cup, while I am receiving assistance. I am just trying to point out that no matter the reasoning behind it, ANYTHING can be taken as removal of freedom of choice, discrimination, etc. That is why I say that as a society we need to step up to the plate and determine what our standards are going to be, and actually enforce them. If my ideas are not part of the final decision, so be it, that's democracy in action by everyone voting on it. But something needs to be done, and something needs to be done about those who do abuse the system. Why dont we adopt some of the netherlands policies? Instead of kicking folks when they are down,, why dont we require those who have gotten ahead to help someone ELSE do the same? Perhaps we could, instead of taking soo much taxes, allow people to use some of the taxes they would pay to hire someone for some type of job. I think in part of the netherlands, they have a certain financial cap. Once you reach it you are REQUIRED to create a job and hire someone else. The people take pride in their work, down to the guy who cleans the telephone booths. People feel valued, they feel productive and everyone gets the opportunity to contribute, from the wealthy to the very poor. The wealthy contribute by helping others(which sadly isnt a part of your proposal) and those who are starting out contribute by doing everything from sweeping streets to keeping records. |
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And yet, this is how it is supposed to work even now. our main problem is we do not enforce what we have already decided would be the rules and laws of the nation. We do not vote out of office those who abuse their power, or don't do what we the people want done.
I could be wrong, but I think you Suze, were one of many, myself included, who stated that the majority of the people are not users, and lazy-good-for-nothings (my own words there). If htis is the case, then the many, out number the few, and those who would vote to make life less demanding and requiring, would be outnumbered by far by the ones who would want specific rules and guidelines, laws, in place. For example, we can all agree for the most part, that a mass-murderer does not belong loose in society. We don't necessarily all agree on what to do with the person once they are in custody, but we do all agree that they need to be out of society for the good of society. The same issue applies. The MAJORITY of the society would agree on what is reasonable and what is not reasonable. And as has always been the case, if you can not abide by the majority decision, you have the freedom to move elsewhere. Society rules in the end. It is simply a matter of society, we the people, standing up for what we want and don't want. disclaimer: I know parts of this sound like I am trying to rabble rouze, but I promise you I am not, lol. I do not wanna see anything but peace in the end, no matter how unlikely that is So your answer is, WE will have the power to decide what is and is not acceptable contribution to the society. Ay, there's the rub. Because you and I have VASTLY differing ideas of what an acceptable contribution is. Every single person will have their own thoughts on what it is. Who is right? Who is wrong? The welfare cheat can probably give you a gazillion justifications for why they do what they do and why it's good for society. Ditto a habitual criminal. Ditto an attorney, someone who plays poker for a living, a doctor who writes himself prescriptions for his painkiller addiction, etc etc etc. If you take away freedom of choice for all, you help a few drag themselves up while dragging the vast majority down. |
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first let me apologize for something here. Somehow it appears to have come to the belief that what I proposed would be the final change nothing else being changed or anything proposal, and that's NOT what I am trying to say.
There are thousands of issues that need to be looked over if not done or even scrapped outright. This was just a suggestion to cover a couple areas. Now on with what you suggested about Netherlands policy(ies). That would be a very good idea, except for one thing. People would then try to use that as a way to cancel all taxes, and then we would really have a major problem, as NOTHING would get done. I agree that those who have the capability SHOULD hire out to others so everyone can work. But, should we demand how they spend their money? That is getting into individual freedoms again. Those who are non-skilled should be looking for the non-skilled work, until they have the skills necessarry for a specific job. Not complaining because they have to do something they don't like. In the end it all boils down to personal values and morals. Sadly too many people don't think about the other person until they are forced to do so, and then complain because they have to. To answer Mo's first question, what I do to better the community right now, is volunteer at my church and around town helping people who need physical labor done and can not do it themselves. I am helping to renovate my church's fellowship hall, to bring it back up to the glory it should already be in. Other than that, and anything else people need done, I am looking continually for an employer who will hire me knowing that I can only work Monday through Friday from 8am until 2:30pm, and have to be able to leave unexpectedly during those hours if my sons school calls, for an indefinite period of time, due to his health. he can not be put in any type of day care situation as he can not cope with it. He does have problems in school as well, which is why I need to be able to leave unexpectedly, and can not guaruntee when I come back. As far as doing what I can to get out of this pit, I am working at getting enrolled in the local college next year, during school hours, probably half time to begin with, and working towards a counseling degree, and a ministry degree. This way when I am done, if I have to pick my son up from school, I will normally be able to take him right with me to work (no I would not be working out of a doctors office). I am also trying to start a radio station going on the internet, so as to bring in minimal income from sponsors, so I can hopefully get off of the assistance in the somewhat near future. As you can see, I do not sit around telling people they should do this this this and that, and then do nothing myself. Although there are way too many people out there that do this. And before you ask, yes if I could get back in the military I would in a heartbeat. And to risk sounding confrontational, though I don't mean to be, to "force randomized drug testing for welfare recipients" can be seen as a form of discrimination. Now don't get me wrong. I agree with you completely, that it should be done, and I would be first in line every day to pee in a cup, while I am receiving assistance. I am just trying to point out that no matter the reasoning behind it, ANYTHING can be taken as removal of freedom of choice, discrimination, etc. That is why I say that as a society we need to step up to the plate and determine what our standards are going to be, and actually enforce them. If my ideas are not part of the final decision, so be it, that's democracy in action by everyone voting on it. But something needs to be done, and something needs to be done about those who do abuse the system. Why dont we adopt some of the netherlands policies? Instead of kicking folks when they are down,, why dont we require those who have gotten ahead to help someone ELSE do the same? Perhaps we could, instead of taking soo much taxes, allow people to use some of the taxes they would pay to hire someone for some type of job. I think in part of the netherlands, they have a certain financial cap. Once you reach it you are REQUIRED to create a job and hire someone else. The people take pride in their work, down to the guy who cleans the telephone booths. People feel valued, they feel productive and everyone gets the opportunity to contribute, from the wealthy to the very poor. The wealthy contribute by helping others(which sadly isnt a part of your proposal) and those who are starting out contribute by doing everything from sweeping streets to keeping records. |
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But, should we demand how they spend their money? But, by your theory, we are demanding how they spend their lives, why stop there? Why not demand how they spend their money? And who they marry, or when, or how many children they have and what the sexes should be? Who their friends should be? What sites they can travel to on the Internet? How they think altogether? Once you start trampling on ONE individual right, you start trampling them all or at least open the door for that to happen. |
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But, should we demand how they spend their money? But, by your theory, we are demanding how they spend their lives, why stop there? Why not demand how they spend their money? And who they marry, or when, or how many children they have and what the sexes should be? Who their friends should be? What sites they can travel to on the Internet? How they think altogether? Once you start trampling on ONE individual right, you start trampling them all or at least open the door for that to happen. Suz get outta my head, only room for one in there  |
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But, should we demand how they spend their money? But, by your theory, we are demanding how they spend their lives, why stop there? Why not demand how they spend their money? And who they marry, or when, or how many children they have and what the sexes should be? Who their friends should be? What sites they can travel to on the Internet? How they think altogether? Once you start trampling on ONE individual right, you start trampling them all or at least open the door for that to happen. Suz get outta my head, only room for one in there I hear that a lot! I must not be as original as I thought  
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But, should we demand how they spend their money? But, by your theory, we are demanding how they spend their lives, why stop there? Why not demand how they spend their money? And who they marry, or when, or how many children they have and what the sexes should be? Who their friends should be? What sites they can travel to on the Internet? How they think altogether? Once you start trampling on ONE individual right, you start trampling them all or at least open the door for that to happen. Suz get outta my head, only room for one in there I hear that a lot! I must not be as original as I thought You are most definitely original not my fault your ejumashun maiks et ez to undarstan, mine dont der be undastanebel
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And why do you have to take my words and change them all out of proportion to what I said? I made a suggestion. I willingly state that it needs working on, and that if in the end society does not agree with it then I can accept that.
Why do you have to sit there and claim that my proposal of making people step to the bat and choose to do something for the better of the community has anything at all to do with telling them how to spend their money, how many children to have, etc etc etc. I ask now that you step aside and stop twisting my words and trying to claim I am saying something that I am not. But, should we demand how they spend their money? But, by your theory, we are demanding how they spend their lives, why stop there? Why not demand how they spend their money? And who they marry, or when, or how many children they have and what the sexes should be? Who their friends should be? What sites they can travel to on the Internet? How they think altogether? Once you start trampling on ONE individual right, you start trampling them all or at least open the door for that to happen. |
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And why do you have to take my words and change them all out of proportion to what I said? I made a suggestion. I willingly state that it needs working on, and that if in the end society does not agree with it then I can accept that. Why do you have to sit there and claim that my proposal of making people step to the bat and choose to do something for the better of the community has anything at all to do with telling them how to spend their money, how many children to have, etc etc etc. I ask now that you step aside and stop twisting my words and trying to claim I am saying something that I am not. now, now Daniel, this is not gracious behavior. She is not taking nor twisting your words, she is responding to them, offering another point of view, which just so happens not to agree with your suggestions. Why would you ask anyone to step aside??? are you saying she's in your way?? |
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