Daniel,

It's against the site's rules to get personally rude. It's not against the site's rules to pick somebody's words apart.

it's hard to get into the military if you have past criminal charges

I had a DWI before I went in and had to go before a Captain (equivalent to a Colonel in the Army) and be interviewed for a waiver to be allowed in

Then what would all those college degreed enjineers do for a living? Drive a Taxi?

I'm going to defend my mom here. She didn't go to college. She was a stay-at-home mom. She was very productive.

yes I did refer to the question about communism. my suggestion in now way at all takes any freedom of choice away from a person. Yes, it adds a consequence to not being a productive member of society, but it does not take away anybody's choices of what to do. You still do not HAVE to go into the military. You can go to college/trade school/apprenticeship. You can be working on a farm, or owning your own business. These are just a few examples of what you can do to choose not going into the military.


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It actually does take freedom of choice away, Daniel. That's something I don't think you fully appreciate. It is still telling people you can choose, but you can ONLY choose things that I (I meaning the government) approve of. There are many who would go these routes, anyway. But, it is still taking the REAL freedom away, the freedom to choose your life without interference by anyone. Giving people a handful of choices still boils down to choosing for them.

I understand what you are getting at here Suze, I really do. BUT, there comes a point when somebody (normally government yes) does have to step in and say, these are the choices you have. This is because we live in a community, and due to this, we are responsible to a certain degree in providing FOR the community. That is why people live in communities rather than off by themselves, because of the mutual benefits.

However, when so many people start living in the community, drawing off the community resources (welfare in this case), and not providing something in return for the services, whether it be cash, or labor, or goods, whatever, then the community fails, and everyone suffers.

We are seeing this now, for several reasons, and not just from people refusing to work (and for the record I am sure there are more people who ARE willing to work than are not).

When this happens, people need to have a wake up call so to speak, and to be given a set choice of what to do in order to better their lives and their community. And you can only give so many choices,and when they are all refused, what do you have left? Continue letting the person receive from the community and return nothing, or make them do something productive? In the very end it comes down to giving them the choice: Live by the community standards, and be productive, or leave the community.

What we need to start doing is figure out what our standards as a community are going to be, and start enforcing them, whether it is with my idea of bringing more emphases on the military choice, or something else.

But in the end, people need to start being more productive, and contributing to society or we are ALL going to lose everything.

I understand what you are getting at here Suze, I really do. BUT, there comes a point when somebody (normally government yes) does have to step in and say, these are the choices you have. This is because we live in a community, and due to this, we are responsible to a certain degree in providing FOR the community. That is why people live in communities rather than off by themselves, because of the mutual benefits.

However, when so many people start living in the community, drawing off the community resources (welfare in this case), and not providing something in return for the services, whether it be cash, or labor, or goods, whatever, then the community fails, and everyone suffers.

We are seeing this now, for several reasons, and not just from people refusing to work (and for the record I am sure there are more people who ARE willing to work than are not).

When this happens, people need to have a wake up call so to speak, and to be given a set choice of what to do in order to better their lives and their community. And you can only give so many choices,and when they are all refused, what do you have left? Continue letting the person receive from the community and return nothing, or make them do something productive? In the very end it comes down to giving them the choice: Live by the community standards, and be productive, or leave the community.

What we need to start doing is figure out what our standards as a community are going to be, and start enforcing them, whether it is with my idea of bringing more emphases on the military choice, or something else.

But in the end, people need to start being more productive, and contributing to society or we are ALL going to lose everything.

I understand what you are getting at here Suze, I really do. BUT, there comes a point when somebody (normally government yes) does have to step in and say, these are the choices you have. This is because we live in a community, and due to this, we are responsible to a certain degree in providing FOR the community. That is why people live in communities rather than off by themselves, because of the mutual benefits.

However, when so many people start living in the community, drawing off the community resources (welfare in this case), and not providing something in return for the services, whether it be cash, or labor, or goods, whatever, then the community fails, and everyone suffers.

We are seeing this now, for several reasons, and not just from people refusing to work (and for the record I am sure there are more people who ARE willing to work than are not).

When this happens, people need to have a wake up call so to speak, and to be given a set choice of what to do in order to better their lives and their community. And you can only give so many choices,and when they are all refused, what do you have left? Continue letting the person receive from the community and return nothing, or make them do something productive? In the very end it comes down to giving them the choice: Live by the community standards, and be productive, or leave the community.

What we need to start doing is figure out what our standards as a community are going to be, and start enforcing them, whether it is with my idea of bringing more emphases on the military choice, or something else.

But in the end, people need to start being more productive, and contributing to society or we are ALL going to lose everything.






I am not necessarily disagreeing with some of the above. But, my problem is forcing EVERYONE to certain standards based on the actions of a few? Ok, yes, giving the relative few who may be abusing the system some "poop or get off the pot" scenario might be the right thing to do. But, then again, who and by what standards decides how the system is being abused? I'm going to use you as an example (please don't be offended, it's not my intent at all). I believe you are on disability, correct? So, let's say the "government" decides you are not truly disabled? (which btw, is not an unlikely scenario). You know you cannot work and I believe that despite your contentiousness, you are an honorable person. But, still, someone else (like now) has control of that arbitrary line. And because your neighbor decided to fake a back injury, they decide one day, because they have the power to do so, to move that line back. And you lose your benefits. Then what?

There is always going to be welfare in any society, it is the duty (I believe) for people in a community to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves. Better policing probably needs to be done to root out the abusers. A good well-run society understands that and provides for it. But I don't think that limiting choices for ALL based on the actions of a few is a practical OR desirable scenario.

I understand what you are getting at here Suze, I really do. BUT, there comes a point when somebody (normally government yes) does have to step in and say, these are the choices you have. This is because we live in a community, and due to this, we are responsible to a certain degree in providing FOR the community. That is why people live in communities rather than off by themselves, because of the mutual benefits.

However, when so many people start living in the community, drawing off the community resources (welfare in this case), and not providing something in return for the services, whether it be cash, or labor, or goods, whatever, then the community fails, and everyone suffers.

We are seeing this now, for several reasons, and not just from people refusing to work (and for the record I am sure there are more people who ARE willing to work than are not).

When this happens, people need to have a wake up call so to speak, and to be given a set choice of what to do in order to better their lives and their community. And you can only give so many choices,and when they are all refused, what do you have left? Continue letting the person receive from the community and return nothing, or make them do something productive? In the very end it comes down to giving them the choice: Live by the community standards, and be productive, or leave the community.

What we need to start doing is figure out what our standards as a community are going to be, and start enforcing them, whether it is with my idea of bringing more emphases on the military choice, or something else.

But in the end, people need to start being more productive, and contributing to society or we are ALL going to lose everything.






I am not necessarily disagreeing with some of the above. But, my problem is forcing EVERYONE to certain standards based on the actions of a few? Ok, yes, giving the relative few who may be abusing the system some "poop or get off the pot" scenario might be the right thing to do. But, then again, who and by what standards decides how the system is being abused? I'm going to use you as an example (please don't be offended, it's not my intent at all). I believe you are on disability, correct? So, let's say the "government" decides you are not truly disabled? (which btw, is not an unlikely scenario). You know you cannot work and I believe that despite your contentiousness, you are an honorable person. But, still, someone else (like now) has control of that arbitrary line. And because your neighbor decided to fake a back injury, they decide one day, because they have the power to do so, to move that line back. And you lose your benefits. Then what?

There is always going to be welfare in any society, it is the duty (I believe) for people in a community to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves. Better policing probably needs to be done to root out the abusers. A good well-run society understands that and provides for it. But I don't think that limiting choices for ALL based on the actions of a few is a practical OR desirable scenario.

To answer Mo's first question, what I do to better the community right now, is volunteer at my church and around town helping people who need physical labor done and can not do it themselves. I am helping to renovate my church's fellowship hall, to bring it back up to the glory it should already be in.

Other than that, and anything else people need done, I am looking continually for an employer who will hire me knowing that I can only work Monday through Friday from 8am until 2:30pm, and have to be able to leave unexpectedly during those hours if my sons school calls, for an indefinite period of time, due to his health. he can not be put in any type of day care situation as he can not cope with it. He does have problems in school as well, which is why I need to be able to leave unexpectedly, and can not guaruntee when I come back.

As far as doing what I can to get out of this pit, I am working at getting enrolled in the local college next year, during school hours, probably half time to begin with, and working towards a counseling degree, and a ministry degree. This way when I am done, if I have to pick my son up from school, I will normally be able to take him right with me to work (no I would not be working out of a doctors office). I am also trying to start a radio station going on the internet, so as to bring in minimal income from sponsors, so I can hopefully get off of the assistance in the somewhat near future.

As you can see, I do not sit around telling people they should do this this this and that, and then do nothing myself. Although there are way too many people out there that do this. And before you ask, yes if I could get back in the military I would in a heartbeat.

And to risk sounding confrontational, though I don't mean to be, to "force randomized drug testing for welfare recipients" can be seen as a form of discrimination. Now don't get me wrong. I agree with you completely, that it should be done, and I would be first in line every day to pee in a cup, while I am receiving assistance. I am just trying to point out that no matter the reasoning behind it, ANYTHING can be taken as removal of freedom of choice, discrimination, etc. That is why I say that as a society we need to step up to the plate and determine what our standards are going to be, and actually enforce them. If my ideas are not part of the final decision, so be it, that's democracy in action by everyone voting on it. But something needs to be done, and something needs to be done about those who do abuse the system.

To answer Mo's first question, what I do to better the community right now, is volunteer at my church and around town helping people who need physical labor done and can not do it themselves. I am helping to renovate my church's fellowship hall, to bring it back up to the glory it should already be in.

Other than that, and anything else people need done, I am looking continually for an employer who will hire me knowing that I can only work Monday through Friday from 8am until 2:30pm, and have to be able to leave unexpectedly during those hours if my sons school calls, for an indefinite period of time, due to his health. he can not be put in any type of day care situation as he can not cope with it. He does have problems in school as well, which is why I need to be able to leave unexpectedly, and can not guaruntee when I come back.

Great job Daniel

But knowing your circumstance and your limitations on work - how would you like for someone to tell you either go to school or go to the military, knowing you cannot do either full time.

Technically you do have a choice - would you like someone to make up your mind for you without knowing that both choices will affect your child? and/or having no regard for your child?

To answer Mo's first question, what I do to better the community right now, is volunteer at my church and around town helping people who need physical labor done and can not do it themselves. I am helping to renovate my church's fellowship hall, to bring it back up to the glory it should already be in.

Other than that, and anything else people need done, I am looking continually for an employer who will hire me knowing that I can only work Monday through Friday from 8am until 2:30pm, and have to be able to leave unexpectedly during those hours if my sons school calls, for an indefinite period of time, due to his health. he can not be put in any type of day care situation as he can not cope with it. He does have problems in school as well, which is why I need to be able to leave unexpectedly, and can not guaruntee when I come back.

As far as doing what I can to get out of this pit, I am working at getting enrolled in the local college next year, during school hours, probably half time to begin with, and working towards a counseling degree, and a ministry degree. This way when I am done, if I have to pick my son up from school, I will normally be able to take him right with me to work (no I would not be working out of a doctors office). I am also trying to start a radio station going on the internet, so as to bring in minimal income from sponsors, so I can hopefully get off of the assistance in the somewhat near future.

As you can see, I do not sit around telling people they should do this this this and that, and then do nothing myself. Although there are way too many people out there that do this. And before you ask, yes if I could get back in the military I would in a heartbeat.

And to risk sounding confrontational, though I don't mean to be, to "force randomized drug testing for welfare recipients" can be seen as a form of discrimination. Now don't get me wrong. I agree with you completely, that it should be done, and I would be first in line every day to pee in a cup, while I am receiving assistance. I am just trying to point out that no matter the reasoning behind it, ANYTHING can be taken as removal of freedom of choice, discrimination, etc. That is why I say that as a society we need to step up to the plate and determine what our standards are going to be, and actually enforce them. If my ideas are not part of the final decision, so be it, that's democracy in action by everyone voting on it. But something needs to be done, and something needs to be done about those who do abuse the system.

That's every single parents' situation. Single parents still work full time. There's after school care and babysitters.

Just saying.

That's just it, you missed completely what I said. I can not put my son into any of those are programs due to his issues. Rest assured this isn't me making the decision; it is his doctor, and social services both.

Now let me ask you this, do you feel like you are better than others because you give your free time to volunteer?

I'll be honest with you here, it's going to be hard to find a job where they will expect you leave on the whim. I am also a single parent and my only baby sitter is my sons grandma. I tried to go to college to get a degree and realized the amount in student loans will always surpass what I would make in a year doing what I would get the degree for..So to replace that and pay off the loans I've decided I would rather have no more debt incurred and just be a freelancer. I write articles online and make a little extra money a month by providing a service to help educate people...I am also a freelance photographer and this winter I will be providing a service alongside other photographers to help homeless families or sheltered people get the gift of a family portrait for the holidays.....

What i'm saying here is...you don't need a college degree to do what you love doing. You don't need military to be productive to society and by what you just told me....contradicts what you are telling everyone else.

You've been productive without that degree and productive without being in the military again...just think about.

I too volunteer - at my son's school, for the gym's daycare and for an advocacy group called, "Friends of great salt lake" where we educate society about why the lake is vital to our area. It's great to teach others and to see their reaction about something they never existed. And to see the little minds of children working makes me happy..I'd rather do that any day over being in the military or going back to college. I'm sure a lot of people can say the say for themselves.