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| Topic: Some hard questions about God and Heaven | |
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I think a whole lot of a person's belief system has to do with what they were raised with. It is instilled in you from a very early age. If your parents took you to a church that believed when you die you become a butterfly and the wings are made from God's hair then "by God" that's what you will always believe. Even if you discover some other faith when you grow up, I believe that somewhere in you will still be the butterfly concept. I went to the funeral of a friend of mine who was gay and Catholic. The church was full of gay people also Catholic and known partying hell-raisers. When it was time for kneeling, Lord's Prayer etc it came automatically to all present. Words of wisdom .  .
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 09/05/09 09:18 AM
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JustAGuy2112
In the first place....none of these " logical " questions have any bearing on ANY aspect of faith. The fact that you think questions like that are " logical " and proper, only show your narrow mindedness and lack of ability to apply logic when it comes to questions of faith. I have no problem with 'faith' or religion. You are assuming things about me that are totally wrong. I am probably the most open minded person on this club. So I would ask that you address the subject or the point of the subject and not me personally and any of your assumptive ideas of how narrow minded I might be. My post is directed to people who unshakably believe that "God" is to be defined as a humanoid male supreme being who created the world. Beginning with this premise, I am just asking them to think about that --as if it were a fact-- and all that might go with that idea. You seem to have the opinion that if you can't smell/touch/feel/ speak with whoever ( he she or otherwise ) that it simply cannot exist. I don't have that opinion at all. What troubles me are people who talk about 'God' as if they have seen 'him' in person. However...you cannot see/smell/taste/touch or talk to gravity and you know it's there.
Why?? Because your feet stay firmly planted on the ground and you don;'t go floating off into the ether. Why do you believe that gravity exists?? Because someone said so and then created a machine that showed it. Well..we may not have the machine to " show " God as of yet....but science is always evolving and there may come a time when someone comes up with a machine that actually DOES show God. Will you then continue to question it's existence because you can't touch it or talk to it??? It's pretty funny actually.... You are expecting people to question their beliefs...but yet...you refuse to question a belief system of your own that seems to be based solely on science. Has it never occurred to you that science is continually proven wrong by it's own hand??? How can you NOT question it? I question EVERYTHING. What I am asking is for people to first define what they mean by 'GOD' before they talk about 'him' as if they know 'him' personally. Not everyone sees 'God' the same way. I don't have a problem with people believing in God, I just want them to think about it in a more practical manner. For you to get the impression that I am 'narrow minded' shows that you have not read many of my posts. I am a person who reads tarot cards, believes in aliens, telepathy, soul travel, magic, the law of attraction, underground cities, and some conspiracy theories. To say that I am 'narrow minded' is really funny to me. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 09/05/09 09:17 AM
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God is neither a male nor a female; He is a spirit. Then why do you say 'HE?" We are made in his image. We are spirit beings with a natural body. When our spirit leaves, the body dies or when our body dies, the spirit leaves (depending on the situation). God does not possess physical attributes, but will use figurative language (because for the most part we can only comprehend the physical realm), in order for us to understand and know Him better.
Spirit cannot be an "IMAGE." To be an image, you must have form of some kind. The Bible passage said "Let us make man in our image." That would be a humanoid form. He is our creator and our bodies are so complex it is simply amazing! Did you know that the amount of salt in our blood is the exact same amount in the ocean and if it is deviated, life in either would not be able to survive! Wow, I could go on and on, but I am deviating from the question…sorry. Yes you are. He made us with a purpose, as he made every living thing be it plants, animals, and humans. We are well thought out and planned (Psalm 139, Ro. 8:28-29, Eph. 2:10). Some believe that God is both male and female and when He made Adam and decided that he needed a helper, he split them into 2 (they say this is why God says that when husband and wife come together they become one flesh). Okay given that premise (He made every living thing...) tell me how 'he' did it. Did he do it all by himself? Did he do it just with 'his' thoughts? Or did he have a team of scientists and helpers working on the project? These are practical questions. Also, if God is just "spirit" with no form, how did 'he' do all of this? And if 'he' made man in his image, then why is man not also in spirit form? How did he design the human body? Better yet, WHY? When the Bible said "Let us make man in our image." I have to assume they are talking about what makes us human... our human body. If you had all the attributes you say God gave us but you lived in the body of a whale, you would not be considered 'human.' What I know is that God is a Spirit according to John 4:24 that states, “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” He does not have physical attributes but he is a Person. He is a Spirit and has a mind, will, intellect, emotions, and moral capacity and so do we!!! This is profoundly wonderful and this is what is meant when He says that we are made in His image. An attribute of intellect and emotion and moral capacity all existing in the spirit form? Don't get me wrong, I believe this IS possible. I believe that each of us can exist in spirit form just this same way. But then, what do you think is the purpose of the human body? Can you see spirit? Does spirit have a form? (NO I don't think so.) But you can see the body. (The body is the image.) Therefore, the humanoid supreme being who "made man in his image" must also at least look human if you are to take this scripture literally. But since this does not really add up, many people find other scripture that says something different. On the one hand, God is spirit, on the other hand, he has or manifests a body and walks in the garden with Adam. I appreciate you response. 
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Not everyone sees 'God' the same way.
Ok. You want them to define God...but yet, you say not everyone sees God the same way. Why bother with the definition?? Taking something on faith isn't practical?? Neither is relying on science or your own senses to base your belief or disbelief on. If you are as open minded as you want to believe you are, then asking for a " definition " of God, when " not everyone sees God the same way ", might make you want to rethink your level of open mindedness. Can you, yourself, place a strict definition of what God is?? Unless and until you can, then asking people to question their definition is not only selfish, but narrow minded as well. It's very rare that a truly " open minded " person will ask others to change their way of thinking. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 09/05/09 11:56 AM
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Not everyone sees 'God' the same way.
Ok. You want them to define God...but yet, you say not everyone sees God the same way. Why bother with the definition?? Taking something on faith isn't practical?? Neither is relying on science or your own senses to base your belief or disbelief on. If you are as open minded as you want to believe you are, then asking for a " definition " of God, when " not everyone sees God the same way ", might make you want to rethink your level of open mindedness. Can you, yourself, place a strict definition of what God is?? Unless and until you can, then asking people to question their definition is not only selfish, but narrow minded as well. It's very rare that a truly " open minded " person will ask others to change their way of thinking. I only want them to define what their concept of 'God' is if we are engaged in a conversation about God. Otherwise, I just don't know what premise we are working from or what we are talking about. It does not matter to me what a person's concept of God is except when they are talking about God to me and assuming that I know and agree with what their concept of God is. In order to have a successful communication we should be on the same page. Given that, if a person then describes "God" as a humanoid supreme being who created the world, then I have a few questions for them to consider... based on that premise. I don't want them to just drop that concept in my lap as if it were truth and expect me to agree with them and not "question" GOd. (Their concept of God.) I do question their concept of God. Sorry, but I just do. I don't care that they have that concept, I just don't want to talk to them about God if they are assuming I am understanding and agreeing with their concept or premise. That is why I ask people to please define their concept of God. I can totally accept their premise and concept of God being a male humanoid supreme being who created the world and then continue the conversation from there. Okay on that premise these are my questions. (In the Opening post.) |
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not sure he is up there any more he never was, so don't worry about it. |
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I think a whole lot of a person's belief system has to do with what they were raised with. It is instilled in you from a very early age. If your parents took you to a church that believed when you die you become a butterfly and the wings are made from God's hair then "by God" that's what you will always believe. Even if you discover some other faith when you grow up, I believe that somewhere in you will still be the butterfly concept. I went to the funeral of a friend of mine who was gay and Catholic. The church was full of gay people also Catholic and known partying hell-raisers. When it was time for kneeling, Lord's Prayer etc it came automatically to all present. yes, catholics are trained like a Pavlovian dog. Why don't more people see this as WRONG? |
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Sorry, one more thing...once you have evidence of God then faith is no more. Right? so sayith "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". |
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The best thing I have did for me and my children was dump my childhood religion and seek out a path of my own...the worst thing my parents did was teach me their faith and tell me it was the only one and to take it in faith and NOT ask questions. I'm really grateful today I didn't listen..I had to completely lose the salvation theory to find spirituality. I was raised with no belief system at all. But I was afforded the opportunity explore any I wanted to. And so I did, many of them. I still have no belief system at all. |
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Not everyone sees 'God' the same way.
Ok. You want them to define God...but yet, you say not everyone sees God the same way. Why bother with the definition?? Taking something on faith isn't practical?? Neither is relying on science or your own senses to base your belief or disbelief on. If you are as open minded as you want to believe you are, then asking for a " definition " of God, when " not everyone sees God the same way ", might make you want to rethink your level of open mindedness. Can you, yourself, place a strict definition of what God is?? Unless and until you can, then asking people to question their definition is not only selfish, but narrow minded as well. It's very rare that a truly " open minded " person will ask others to change their way of thinking. I only want them to define what their concept of 'God' is if we are engaged in a conversation about God. Otherwise, I just don't know what premise we are working from or what we are talking about. It does not matter to me what a person's concept of God is except when they are talking about God to me and assuming that I know and agree with what their concept of God is. In order to have a successful communication we should be on the same page. Given that, if a person then describes "God" as a humanoid supreme being who created the world, then I have a few questions for them to consider... based on that premise. I don't want them to just drop that concept in my lap as if it were truth and expect me to agree with them and not "question" GOd. (Their concept of God.) I do question their concept of God. Sorry, but I just do. I don't care that they have that concept, I just don't want to talk to them about God if they are assuming I am understanding and agreeing with their concept or premise. That is why I ask people to please define their concept of God. I can totally accept their premise and concept of God being a male humanoid supreme being who created the world and then continue the conversation from there. Okay on that premise these are my questions. (In the Opening post.) do you ever get tired of banging your head against the wall of other people's arrogance and hostility? I know I do.... |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 09/05/09 12:21 PM
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Not everyone sees 'God' the same way.
Ok. You want them to define God...but yet, you say not everyone sees God the same way. Why bother with the definition?? Taking something on faith isn't practical?? Neither is relying on science or your own senses to base your belief or disbelief on. If you are as open minded as you want to believe you are, then asking for a " definition " of God, when " not everyone sees God the same way ", might make you want to rethink your level of open mindedness. Can you, yourself, place a strict definition of what God is?? Unless and until you can, then asking people to question their definition is not only selfish, but narrow minded as well. It's very rare that a truly " open minded " person will ask others to change their way of thinking. I only want them to define what their concept of 'God' is if we are engaged in a conversation about God. Otherwise, I just don't know what premise we are working from or what we are talking about. It does not matter to me what a person's concept of God is except when they are talking about God to me and assuming that I know and agree with what their concept of God is. In order to have a successful communication we should be on the same page. Given that, if a person then describes "God" as a humanoid supreme being who created the world, then I have a few questions for them to consider... based on that premise. I don't want them to just drop that concept in my lap as if it were truth and expect me to agree with them and not "question" GOd. (Their concept of God.) I do question their concept of God. Sorry, but I just do. I don't care that they have that concept, I just don't want to talk to them about God if they are assuming I am understanding and agreeing with their concept or premise. That is why I ask people to please define their concept of God. I can totally accept their premise and concept of God being a male humanoid supreme being who created the world and then continue the conversation from there. Okay on that premise these are my questions. (In the Opening post.) do you ever get tired of banging your head against the wall of other people's arrogance and hostility? I know I do.... No. I have a lot of patience.  I either try to make myself clear or just ignore it. Understanding and enlightenment (my own) is what I seek from others.
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Edited by
boo2u
on
Sat 09/05/09 12:31 PM
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Faith is the biggest problem when discussing religion. Faith is the answer to all questions that have no answer, which is most questions about god.
I have faith that there is a heaven when I have actually no bloody clue. Of course one wants to think so, I would too if I could bring myself to believe in something I can not see. I have faith is the perfect excuse, explanation etc. Some one had to come up with it or there would be no reason to believe in the first place. I could care less if god is a woman or a man or both, if he/she doesnt' have the decency to show themselves you will never convince me there is one. My favorite question has always been if god created man, who created god. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 09/05/09 12:34 PM
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The best thing I have did for me and my children was dump my childhood religion and seek out a path of my own...the worst thing my parents did was teach me their faith and tell me it was the only one and to take it in faith and NOT ask questions. I'm really grateful today I didn't listen..I had to completely lose the salvation theory to find spirituality. I was raised with no belief system at all. But I was afforded the opportunity explore any I wanted to. And so I did, many of them. I still have no belief system at all. Of course you do. If you did not, then you would not exist.
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Not everyone sees 'God' the same way.
Ok. You want them to define God...but yet, you say not everyone sees God the same way. Why bother with the definition?? Taking something on faith isn't practical?? Neither is relying on science or your own senses to base your belief or disbelief on. If you are as open minded as you want to believe you are, then asking for a " definition " of God, when " not everyone sees God the same way ", might make you want to rethink your level of open mindedness. Can you, yourself, place a strict definition of what God is?? Unless and until you can, then asking people to question their definition is not only selfish, but narrow minded as well. It's very rare that a truly " open minded " person will ask others to change their way of thinking. I only want them to define what their concept of 'God' is if we are engaged in a conversation about God. Otherwise, I just don't know what premise we are working from or what we are talking about. It does not matter to me what a person's concept of God is except when they are talking about God to me and assuming that I know and agree with what their concept of God is. In order to have a successful communication we should be on the same page. Given that, if a person then describes "God" as a humanoid supreme being who created the world, then I have a few questions for them to consider... based on that premise. I don't want them to just drop that concept in my lap as if it were truth and expect me to agree with them and not "question" GOd. (Their concept of God.) I do question their concept of God. Sorry, but I just do. I don't care that they have that concept, I just don't want to talk to them about God if they are assuming I am understanding and agreeing with their concept or premise. That is why I ask people to please define their concept of God. I can totally accept their premise and concept of God being a male humanoid supreme being who created the world and then continue the conversation from there. Okay on that premise these are my questions. (In the Opening post.) do you ever get tired of banging your head against the wall of other people's arrogance and hostility? I know I do.... No. I have a lot of patience. I either try to make myself clear or just ignore it. Understanding and enlightenment (my own) is what I seek from others.
Ah. You are wise. 
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The best thing I have did for me and my children was dump my childhood religion and seek out a path of my own...the worst thing my parents did was teach me their faith and tell me it was the only one and to take it in faith and NOT ask questions. I'm really grateful today I didn't listen..I had to completely lose the salvation theory to find spirituality. I was raised with no belief system at all. But I was afforded the opportunity explore any I wanted to. And so I did, many of them. I still have no belief system at all. Of course you do. If you did not, then you would not exist.
On what do you base that on? |
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The best thing I have did for me and my children was dump my childhood religion and seek out a path of my own...the worst thing my parents did was teach me their faith and tell me it was the only one and to take it in faith and NOT ask questions. I'm really grateful today I didn't listen..I had to completely lose the salvation theory to find spirituality. I was raised with no belief system at all. But I was afforded the opportunity explore any I wanted to. And so I did, many of them. I still have no belief system at all. Of course you do. If you did not, then you would not exist.
On what do you base that on? Do you believe that you exist? If so, that is your belief system. |
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Of course atheism could be true and we're all just worthless slime. But why focus on such a worthless picture? But why does that make everyone worthless? Just because their might not be a deity, doesn't make us useless. It just makes us us with the ability to control ourselves, better ourselves and others, without living in fear that some angry male figure is going to punish us for asking a question. |
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Edited by
spasetrucker
on
Sat 09/05/09 09:50 PM
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I don't think I can adequately answer you question, but I will try to clear up some of the confusion about why GOD is referred to as being male. Christians actually believe in what we call the trinity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God refers to himself as being male, (the Father) so naturally, Christians refer to Him as being male.
Not all who believe in a Supreme Being are Christians. Deists believe in a God who created the universe, but they do not believe in the trinity. I hope that helps you to understand our beliefs a little better. Steve |
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Not everyone sees 'God' the same way.
Ok. You want them to define God...but yet, you say not everyone sees God the same way. Why bother with the definition?? Taking something on faith isn't practical?? Neither is relying on science or your own senses to base your belief or disbelief on. If you are as open minded as you want to believe you are, then asking for a " definition " of God, when " not everyone sees God the same way ", might make you want to rethink your level of open mindedness. Can you, yourself, place a strict definition of what God is?? Unless and until you can, then asking people to question their definition is not only selfish, but narrow minded as well. It's very rare that a truly " open minded " person will ask others to change their way of thinking. I only want them to define what their concept of 'God' is if we are engaged in a conversation about God. Otherwise, I just don't know what premise we are working from or what we are talking about. It does not matter to me what a person's concept of God is except when they are talking about God to me and assuming that I know and agree with what their concept of God is. In order to have a successful communication we should be on the same page. Given that, if a person then describes "God" as a humanoid supreme being who created the world, then I have a few questions for them to consider... based on that premise. I don't want them to just drop that concept in my lap as if it were truth and expect me to agree with them and not "question" GOd. (Their concept of God.) I do question their concept of God. Sorry, but I just do. I don't care that they have that concept, I just don't want to talk to them about God if they are assuming I am understanding and agreeing with their concept or premise. That is why I ask people to please define their concept of God. I can totally accept their premise and concept of God being a male humanoid supreme being who created the world and then continue the conversation from there. Okay on that premise these are my questions. (In the Opening post.) Ok. Let's try this again. Your own words..." not everyone sees God the same way ". Based on that statement, how can you possibly expect anyone in particular to be on the " same page " as you are with your definition??? By the way...I'm not gonna bother quoting the post or the user...but I am being neither " arrogant " nor am I being " hostile " toward the OP. I am simply asking logical questions. The same as she is asking what SHE sees to be logical questions. |
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