If memory serves there is also a scripture that is along the lines of ..when a child mis-behaves he should be taken to his fathers house and killed...you didn't add that one.

There is a difference between hitting and discipline..that is what this thread keeps coming back to.

I think you are referring to Deuteronomy 21:18-21. Yes it does say that when you pull it out of context. lets look at what it says.

18-20 When a man has a stubborn son, a real rebel who won't do a thing his mother and father tell him, and even though they discipline him he still won't obey, his father and mother shall forcibly bring him before the leaders at the city gate and say to the city fathers, "This son of ours is a stubborn rebel; he won't listen to a thing we say. He's a glutton and a drunk."

21 Then all the men of the town are to throw rocks at him until he's dead. You will have purged the evil pollution from among you. All Israel will hear what's happened and be in awe.

The context that you forgot was they had disciplined him and he still would not change. Now I think this is also referring to adult children. not little children. How often are little children referred to as drunks. Also the answer was not that they kill them but bring them to the elders to decide what to do with him.

Remember there was a different time. There was not stock market. no desk jobs. the family survival depended on all able bodied people working. That is why it also says he who will not work should not eat, not he who can not work. So lets exchange this to a modern day story and see if you see it still as wrong.

A 25 year old living in his parents basement refuses to stop cooking meth in there. The 25 year old has also been watching child porn as part of his addiction. His parents discipline him(non-violent) for sake of argument and he still refuses to change. they have done everything they know how so they turn him over to police. well the 25 year old is convicted of child pornography and attempt to manufacture a controlled substance. he is placed in General population in prison where he is then murdered. would you fault the parents for this?

Short version but illustrates the point that the decision to murder was left up to the community. not the parents. had the parents decided to murder on their own choice without consulting the community they lived in they themselves would been punished with murder as part of the commandments. also remember there was no paxil, Zoloft or all the assortment of drugs we have available now.

Sooner or later no one wants to have kids anymore because too much work for nothing .

Sooner or later no one wants to have kids anymore because too much work for nothing .

You are very lucky .
Children are like a lottery you never predict the outcome .
Also there are so many mental issues with some kids like Adah.....etc.

The psychology of spanking is flawed in that it teaches the child that the proper response of not getting what you want is violence. And that people who treat you violently love you.

I was whipped, slapped and spanked as a child, most of my greatest learning though came from the punishment after the violence. Staying in my room without television or not being allowed to go outside and play. I learned more from this "time out".

When I was raising my children I felt the urge to do what I was raised with to them but I fought it. I did end up spanking on a few occasions and it did not teach them as well as the time out type stuff. ...

dragonness, I must disagree, i was spanked as a consequence. I was warned ahead of time of that consequence and it made me understand choices. I have grown up to be totally anti violent but I will and have spanked my children on occasion as a consequence. I think the wisest thing said in this line of posts is that all children dont respond to the same discipline. I believe Lulu suggested things like paying for damages, or taking away a cell phone. These things never would have worked for me because I didnt mind working and I didnt care about things too much. You could sit me in a room all day on my own and me and my imagination would be fine. Spanking worked for me and didnt teach me to retaliate in violence but taught me about consequence and choice instead.

it didn't work on my sister...so I guess it depends on the situation.

As far as what works for your child will work for your child. This thread keeps going on and on with the same thing. If you truly believe your side to be right make an argument for the other side. Are there any real benefits. what do studies show. It might amaze you what is found out. Did you know long term effects vary depending on race? Take a look. the studies are there. Just to give you a hint. Physical punishment affects whites more than it affects minorities. If you want the studies i will see if i can find them otherwise just do an advance search in google "long term effects of spanking" only search *.org sites (reputable sites for studies end in .org or .edu)

,,,,

That is very interesting. It seemed growing up that my family and most other black families I know used spanking and had very well behaved children whereas in other families I would see children talking back to their parents, doing whatevery they want, telling the parents what they were gonna do,,etc,,,, I always found that odd and they found it odd at my home where we towed the line set by our folks.There is even a very popular fictional character named Madea who is fashioned after the type of discipline culture I and others like me grew up with.

In the end though, its about having Some type of discipline in place that works for your children.

there are 2 ways of looking at it.Spanking with the intention of correcting an attitude or behavior is beneficial... in adverting a severe pattern from forming or keeping the child in check..Spanking out of anger because of loss controll of a situation Ie breaking the rules or not following instructions is not advised.When this happens the adrenaline is flowing in both the reciever and the adminitrator.Oddly enough the punishment goes beyond the needed measure and can result in physical and psychological damage.Someimes the child can become completely immune to the punishment and at other times the parent will over compensate the punishment just to enforce who is in charge.You have to explain why the punishment is being administerd and how to not have this happen in the future .Above all else have to litterally explain it is out of love not hatred.

Excellent reference and point of view; Let me also say however (yes I will be the spark among the tinder here lol), that the example you used being that of a 25 year old is a tad conservative. let's change it to that of a 16 year old teenager, but otherwise everything is the same.
For the sake of argument, we will say that for two years the parents tried non-physical means of punishment, and redirection, and the 16 y/o refused to change. Their parents resort to more physical and psychological means, as in spankings and threatening to toss him out on the street if he doesn't straighten up, but absolutely nothing deters this 16y/o. So finally they give up and turn him into the police, where everything in your prior example happens.

have the Parents done anything wrong?

No one can forsee the consequences for a behavior or behavior pattern .As far as placing the blame for events that unfold after a circumstance is ludicrous.Everyone has a choice or decision to make the outcome of that decision relies solely on the path that one has chosen to take.The consequences for making the wrong choice can never be blamed on anyone but themselves.If you commit a crime you have to face the punishment .The same goes for a sin you can be forgiven but you still have to face the punishment. Now how this has to do with the pros and cons of spanking is beyond me lol.Just a side note spanking is advisable only on younger chikdren the parent will know when they reach a certain age when it is no longer effective.The sad truth is that too many have taken it to extremes where it is more than just a deterent.This does leave not only emotional scars but real ones as well.Sometimes it is just a reminder of a cruel childhood and other times it is an example that is carried on to the next generation.Violence never solves anything

Okay...actually everyone on here is giving great feedback, but the bottomline is ALL KIDS ARE DIFFERENT. AND SO ARE PARENTS. They say now-a-days that more kids and adults are being dianiosed with ADHD, ADD, AND BI-POLAR. Which means that they need extra "help" with learning how to be a "good child" or parent. Even with their meds, it's hard...for the child and the parents. Now let's switch it....let's say that the parent had the ADHD, ADD, BI-POLAR, OR EVEN WORST...NOT MENTALLY STABLE... Then grown up you learn NOT to your child in the same corner that you were put in??? At any rate, I can sit here and say that hitting in my situation works....but it only works for me. For others....I can't really say....I'm not in their "situation". A friend of mine has a lil' boy (and I have a girl) so I thought the reasons for him being unruley was because he was a "boy" and didn't take into the fact that, he had both parents on drugs for the first 18 months of his life and didn't get any of the attention he needed, so it's now reflecting on his behavior now at 3 yrs old. Both parents are now clean and separated, but still have the right intentions in life now. He gets a spanking now and then but not beating. When he is doing "wrong things", they take the time to explain and if that doesn't go anywhere....then he gets a tap on the a** and put in his room where he's told to think. After a few she (the mom) goes in and talks with him. It's hard....like the saying goes...you make ur bed...now you have to lay in it. I try to help her as much as possible, I don't like to hit or have I ever hit my daughter...who is now 14. She has the usual "mouth" going on sometimes, but she def knows when she is pushing it. WITH ANY CHILD IN THE WORLD....YOU HAVE TO KEEP CONSISTENCY. SAY WHAT YOU MEAN....AND DO WHAT YOU SAY. If you give in cuz you feel sorry for the child....you are only hurting the child. believe it or not...parenthood is probably the hardest JOB in the world. Don't even be too proud to ask for HELP....I.E. Dr.s, grandparents, friends, ect. If you sooooo "mad"....walk away and come back them til you can handle it.

FWIW, there's also great controversy in the medical community about the cause, cure, and very existence of ADD/ADHD. It's interesting to read about, if you get a chance.

Sometimes it is wise to seek professional help as the kid might have something wrong with him or her and what they do is beyond their control . There are lots of kids' mental and psychological illnesses .

So you can take all your " I have never spanked my child because I don't believe in it " and do whatever you want with it.

If it worked for you, then bravo.

Just don't try to apply YOUR personal preference to every parent and child. Sometimes, things just don't work out the way you think they should.

What worked for you and your child/children, may cause another child to look at their parents as an ineffectual joke.
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Wow the wisest post in this string about children is from Just a Guy. Someone who is Just a Guy understands there is no one size fits all discipline for kids. There is a difference between abuse and spankings. There is a difference between slapping kids silly and giving them swats on their (usually well padded) behind.

I will testify , once again, that I and most everyone in my family has a spanking or two and we turned out just fine and exceptionally respectful. None of us grew up to think violence was the answer and only learned about choice and consequence. For me, taking a privilege away from me would not have worked because I was fine by myself ( great imagination ). That would have never deterred me from doing anything. Physical discomfort or fear , on the other hand, were great deterrents. I always knew my parents loved me, I always had a healthy fear of the negative consequences that came with negative choices. To this day, I listen to the utter disrespect of this new generation of children who are = to their parents and my jaw drops.

Some children will respond to taking their things away from them(because things are important to them), some children will respond to isolation (because they crave attention), but there are others, Like i was, who dont have a particular craving for attention or things for whom a swift swat on the behind worked wonders. I can count on one hand how many spankings I got and for what, so I guess my parents were doing something right and not being abusive.

I got spanked for lying to my folks, that was a cardinal sin which I happen to agree with and only did the once. I got spanked for wishing my dad dead (utter disrespect) which was also a cardinal sin which I only did the once. I got spanked for being out in grade school after the street lights were on(another cardinal sin because my parents cared about if I was safe or not and reminded us of this rule constantly),,again, I only did it the once. I have grown up to respect my parents, and learning that lying and disrespect were unacceptable behaviors. I think my folks are the greatest and hope to be even half as good a parent as they were.

On the flip side though, if time outs and such things work to raise your child to be healthy happy and respectful, more power to you. Just try not to judge those who have a different method as somehow less of a parent.

I sympathize with you completely bro. Add in OCD (in my son's case outright stealing, not a case of ooh thats nice let me see, oh thats nicer (in the pocket the first item goes)). My son intentionally shoplifts, and steals from classmates (he is also only 7 years old). Although nothing is certain at this point, he also has all the signs for bipolar (which 5 members of his family already have); so yes I understand completely where you are coming from.

I have to change out my discipline methods on almost a daily basis as he becomes "immune" to them that fast. Currently, fenceliners, or running around the perimeter of the backyard seems to work the best, though I still have to insert an occasional boot to the butt (not literally folks) to get him to straighten up.

Ohhh...Daniel, I'm sorry to hear that your son is having problems with that.

I remember when my brother was in grade school and stole a bunch of record albums from a store. My mom made him return the albums and he was grounded. He's a fine adult now, btw.

Both of my parents grew up getting beat/spanked by their parents, I grew up watching my brothers get beaten/spanked and well me, I guess I was my dad's favorite - he rarely spanked me(although I did get yelled at ALOT). My mom slapped me once when I was a teenager, I respect her for not being like my dad. I guess in a way I respect my dad, but at the same time I hate him for who he was before - he has since changed and would never abuse anyone. But -His attitude reflected badly on my two brothers. My older brother will not take a moment to think twice before spanking his daughter and he has spanked my son once. I tried to tell him afterwards that he hit him to hard, but Apparently when I'm in my brothers house, his rules go. As far as my son, I hate spanking, I would rather sit him down and tell him what he did wrong and explain the situation and what will happen if it continues. But he's still young and acts the same way I did when I was his age.

Everyone's different on spanking. In fact my mom hates it. She purely believes that just telling them over and over that it will begin to seep in.

Mo_muirnin,

If my brother laid a hand on my child, he would not have heard the end of it from me. That is my child, not his. I don't care whose house we're in.

If I had even done what you say you would have, "not heard the end of it" he would have been more than happy to tell us to leave. He's gotten really mean the past few years and I don't see my brother but once every 3-6 years so I wanted to make the best out of it instead of getting angry and yelling at him. But the last day we were there I did tell him that i'm not going to argue with him, but he shouldn't have spanked my son like that and he needs to treat me with respect since I am family.


But, you are right Winx