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| Topic: Atheism Weak or Strong | |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Wed 01/28/09 05:21 AM
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Eljay said:
God is also Just.
Okay lets take a look at some of that biblical "justice" shall we? 2 Corinthians 6 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. "Be ye separate." Keep away from unbelievers. Neither marry nor be friends with them. You should not even be speaking with us Eljay. Your god commands you to not even look at us. Of course this is the NT where it went from "kill all of the heathens" to just turn your back on them because they are "unclean." Thank goodness for small favors. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Wed 01/28/09 05:27 AM
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Eljay said:
So Nero didn't exist? I think there is an extremely large Historical society who would disagree with you.
I don’t understand the historical correlation you are attempting to make between Nero, who was a well documented Roman Emperor and Moses who was some guy who supposedly freed the Hebrew slaves from Egypt yet there is absolutely nothing in the hieroglyphic record that even makes mention of his existence outside of the bible. I’m finding it difficult to believe that the Egyptians would have just glossed over that if it had actually occurred. |
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I'm not making the blanket statement that all those who claim to be christains are not. But when someone who claims to be christian demonstrates by their actions that they're a walking contradiction, it's safe to doubt their claim.
Historically speaking, how would Hitler's actions have been incompatible with Christianity? Ordering the extermination of over 6 million Jews would be a good place to start. Find that in the New Testament for me, and we'll go from there. This comment makes no sense so I can not respond to it. Well, let's break it down. You asked how Hitler's actions are incompatable with Christainity. So - we ask... Where would we find examples of Christain actions? I know - how about the New Testament in the Bible. Well, let's look in the New Testament and see if we can find justification for Hitler's slaughtering over 6 million Jews. I couldn't find anything. Maybe you can. When you do - I'll agree that Hitler's actions were Christian. Until then, I'll stand by my claim that Hitler was not a christain. |
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This is actually my second cited example from the NT. I have to also ask why can I only use the NT? Is the OT not the word of Yahweh suddenly.
 Even so, its easy.
Matthew 10 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks right, Eljay? |
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Simply that Hitler was "Christian." The difference between "Christian" and "Jew" is that Christians accepted Jesus as the Messiah and the Jews rejected him. Pure and simple. And because the Jews were "anti-Christian" that made "Christians" anti-Jews. It justified Hitlers hatred of the Jews using religious power and platform helping to engender hatred for Jews. Now this tactic is a common one for inciting WAR. Our own country is now in the process of engendering hatred against Muslims. When are people going to wake up and stop hating whoever they are told to hate? When are they going to stop using their religious differences and beliefs as an excuse to slaughter each other and justify war? Bickering who is right and who is wrong is what the powerful politicians love us to do as that is the beginning of manipulating us into war against each other. In war, only the men who control the money get richer. They make money on both sides. Wake up people. Please.  
Junk logic. |
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That was an excellent observation on the part of JB. Hardly "junk logic." Not to mention that not one apologist on forum has taken on that article 24 from the Nazi programme. She was the only one who did.
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So what. I cited all of my sources also. How are yours any better? Please show me a quote from Hitler. It's astounding to me that you'd take Adolph Hitler's word as all holy truth but the words and life of Jesus Christ just flys right past ya... I'm finished with this discussion. Thank you...It's been very informative. peace... When it comes to what someone beliefs, I am going to trust the words that come out of their own mouths. So I would assume that you are a staunch George Bush supporter. Charles Manson said he was Jesus Christ. How's that working out for you? |
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Besides Eljay, there were no Born Agains back in 1930s Germany I dont think. However Germany was the most heavily Christianized nation in all of Europe at that point in history. Bonhoffer was a born again. Hitler imprisoned him. What do you mean when you say "Germany was the most heavily Christainized nation"? There's no way to determine if that is fact or not. You cant be serious. Martin Luther? Protestant Church? 
Yeah - well there's one. So we're up to two now. Do you think it mattered that Martin Luther lived about 300 or so years before Nazi Germany? But I won't go as far as to say you're wrong. Just hard to prove it as fact. What do you not understand here? Martin Luther was a German monk. Germany was the most Christenized nation in all of Europe at that point in history. It was the actual birthplace of Protestantism Your lack of historical knowledge is staggering to me at times. You're not telling me anything I don't know. What I don't know is how you are going to prove your claim that Germany was the most Christainized nation in Europe at the time of the rise of the Nazi's. Just exactly how are you going to do that? |
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Eljay said: But those are not criteria either. And nowhere does it say a christain won't sin
That’s right Eljay. Wow we actually agree on something. So by this admission alone you can explain Adolph Hitler and all of the other atrocities committed by Christians and Atheists and anyone else. Although an Atheist does not entertain the notion of "sin" they still have a clear understanding of right and wrong. Hitler was a man and he made some very poor decisions because he was fanatical, probably a sociopath or suffering from some form of borderline personality disorder. He was a Catholic, yet ANYONE is capable of committing sin or perpetrating a wrong. Yes - but this is not evidence that Hitler was a christain. His being born a Catholic (though how one does that is beyond my comprehension) did not make him a Christain. What did Hitler do in his life to become a christain and where is it documented? I've asked you this numerous times, and you keep quoting stuff he said. How is this demonstrating what he "DID"? |
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Eljay said: God is also Just.
Okay lets take a look at some of that biblical "justice" shall we? 2 Corinthians 6 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. "Be ye separate." Keep away from unbelievers. Neither marry nor be friends with them. You should not even be speaking with us Eljay. Your god commands you to not even look at us. Of course this is the NT where it went from "kill all of the heathens" to just turn your back on them because they are "unclean." Thank goodness for small favors. What has this got to do with "Justice"? |
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Eljay said: So Nero didn't exist? I think there is an extremely large Historical society who would disagree with you.
I don’t understand the historical correlation you are attempting to make between Nero, who was a well documented Roman Emperor and Moses who was some guy who supposedly freed the Hebrew slaves from Egypt yet there is absolutely nothing in the hieroglyphic record that even makes mention of his existence outside of the bible. I’m finding it difficult to believe that the Egyptians would have just glossed over that if it had actually occurred. I'd like to see you prove to me that Moses is not well documented. There has been more written about Moses than all of the emporers of rome combined! |
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This is actually my second cited example from the NT. I have to also ask why can I only use the NT? Is the OT not the word of Yahweh suddenly. Even so, its easy.
Matthew 10 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks right, Eljay? Because there are no "christains" in the Old Testament. If you are going to demonstrate that Hitler's actions proved he was a Christian - you've only got the New Testament to refer to. |
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That was an excellent observation on the part of JB. Hardly "junk logic." Not to mention that not one apologist on forum has taken on that article 24 from the Nazi programme. She was the only one who did. It's Junk logic because the premises exist on pretext and are unacceptable. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Wed 01/28/09 11:56 AM
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But it was still the word of god correct? What difference would it make what title you give them? Anyway, that’s a ridiculous argument. I used the NT twice now to cite examples.
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Eljay said: So Nero didn't exist? I think there is an extremely large Historical society who would disagree with you.
I don’t understand the historical correlation you are attempting to make between Nero, who was a well documented Roman Emperor and Moses who was some guy who supposedly freed the Hebrew slaves from Egypt yet there is absolutely nothing in the hieroglyphic record that even makes mention of his existence outside of the bible. I’m finding it difficult to believe that the Egyptians would have just glossed over that if it had actually occurred. I'd like to see you prove to me that Moses is not well documented. There has been more written about Moses than all of the emporers of rome combined! Documentation by the Egyptians? The bible doesn’t count, Eljay. |
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Eljay said: God is also Just.
Okay lets take a look at some of that biblical "justice" shall we? 2 Corinthians 6 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. "Be ye separate." Keep away from unbelievers. Neither marry nor be friends with them. You should not even be speaking with us Eljay. Your god commands you to not even look at us. Of course this is the NT where it went from "kill all of the heathens" to just turn your back on them because they are "unclean." Thank goodness for small favors. What has this got to do with "Justice"? Because it is an unjust sentiment to have for your fellow human beings. I can always cite another example if you like? I was being kind on that one. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Wed 01/28/09 12:22 PM
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Eljay said: So Nero didn't exist? I think there is an extremely large Historical society who would disagree with you.
I don’t understand the historical correlation you are attempting to make between Nero, who was a well documented Roman Emperor and Moses who was some guy who supposedly freed the Hebrew slaves from Egypt yet there is absolutely nothing in the hieroglyphic record that even makes mention of his existence outside of the bible. I’m finding it difficult to believe that the Egyptians would have just glossed over that if it had actually occurred. I'd like to see you prove to me that Moses is not well documented. There has been more written about Moses than all of the emporers of rome combined! Nero 
Moses 
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Wed 01/28/09 12:34 PM
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Eljay said: But those are not criteria either. And nowhere does it say a christain won't sin
That’s right Eljay. Wow we actually agree on something. So by this admission alone you can explain Adolph Hitler and all of the other atrocities committed by Christians and Atheists and anyone else. Although an Atheist does not entertain the notion of "sin" they still have a clear understanding of right and wrong. Hitler was a man and he made some very poor decisions because he was fanatical, probably a sociopath or suffering from some form of borderline personality disorder. He was a Catholic, yet ANYONE is capable of committing sin or perpetrating a wrong. Yes - but this is not evidence that Hitler was a christain. His being born a Catholic (though how one does that is beyond my comprehension) did not make him a Christain. What did Hitler do in his life to become a christain and where is it documented? I've asked you this numerous times, and you keep quoting stuff he said. How is this demonstrating what he "DID"? Do you mean aside from everything else I have posted? The evidence shows that: Hitler was born and baptized into Catholicism His Jewish antisemitism came from his Christian background. His early personal notes shows his interest in religion and Biblical views. He believed that the Bible represented the history of mankind. His Nazi party platform (their version of a constitution) included a section on Positive Christianity, and he never removed it. He confessed his Christianity. He tried to establish a united Reich German Church. Hitler allowed the destruction of Jewish synagogues and temples, but not Christian churches. He encouraged Nazis to worship in Christian churches. He spoke of his Christian beliefs in his speeches and proclamations. His contemporaries, friends, Protestant ministers and Catholics priests, including the Vatican, thought of Hitler as a Christian. The Catholic Church never excommunicated Hitler. He died a Catholic. To ignore the evidence of Hitler's Christianity demonstrates how power of belief can obscure the facts. I would also pose the same question right back at you. Where is it documented that Hitler ever denounced his faith? |
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Yes that’s true and Moses didn’t exist. No where in any Egyptian hieroglyphs does it ever discuss anyone like him. The Egyptians documented everything. It’s all conjured up and fictititous. Yep I agree, but he exists as a fictional character, held in high esteem. And I don't think any of the characters in the New Testament existed either except in fiction, but they have become real to people so I speak of them as real to people who believe they are real. So Nero didn't exist? I think there is an extremely large Historical society who would disagree with you. So why out of all the characters in the New Testament did you pick Nero to question me about? Why Nero? Probably because he is one of the few who stands out as being a real person who existed in history. Yes, he was mentioned in the New Testament. Yes he probably did truly exist. The fictional characters of the New Testament were placed in actual places, and with some real people to give them credibility. (Just like any fiction.) Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, John the Baptist - all are fictional characters. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 01/28/09 03:58 PM
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Hitler was a Catholic. To me, and I suspect many people, that would make him a Christian. That is a problem, because it demonstrates that you are unclear on the concept of what a christain is. Why is that? How can you at least not know how one becomes a christain? I'm not saying you have to become one yourself - but if you are going to argue these points with those who know EXACTLY what is necessary to become a christain, you should at least be as knowledgeable about the topic as those who you claim to know at least as much as they do. I think your personal understanding of what is necessary to become a Christian is not the same as the general and accepted one in society. If you claim to be one, if you believe in the Jesus story, if you go to a Christian Church, you are considered a Christian. They don't have to carry I.D. cards or wear arm bands. They don't have to show their official Christian membership card signed by Jesus. Your particular belief is of what a Christian is, happens to be part of your particular belief. It has nothing to do with societies view of christainity, and everything to do with what the bible says. Where does society get it's idea of christianity if not from the bible? You don't have to be a "card carrying member" - but you can be sure, that if you order the extermination of over 6 million Jews, you aren't a card carrying member. That's just plain OBVIOUS! Your actions and words demonstrate whether you're a card carrying member or not. Then I have an idea. Anyone who is not a real Christian, and anyone who does not love thy neighbor and practice what Jesus taught, should be kicked out of the Religion and not allowed to tell people they are Christians. That includes the Bush family and Obama and anyone else. That includes anyone who puts on a uniform and invades another country and anyone who pays taxes to support that effort. But then, who would enforce this rule? Certainly not true Christians. 
Answer this all you "Born again" Christians and 'other'Christians,: Do you pay taxes? Do you support this illegal war? If you do, then you are not true Christians, you are just pretending to be. But those are not criteria either. And nowhere does it say a christain won't sin - but it does say that if a christain claims to be in the light and does not walk in the light, they decieve themselves. We are to "render unto Caesar - that which is Caesar's". So we pay taxes. It isn't our responsibility that those taxes are used to support those things to which we don't agree - like a War, the ACLU, Abortion, secular schools, the matting habits of the east overshoe slug... the list goes on. What makes a war "illegal"? When you quote Jesus about paying taxes you quote a fictional character made up by the Roman elite who worked under government. Of course they would want him to say that. They wanted their taxes. On the slim chance that a man really did say that who was later cast as "Jesus" he was saying it to appease the powers that be so they might not run him through with a sword or try him for treason, (according to the Urantia book.) The war in Iraq is technically illegal because Bush did not have the proper authority or reason to go there. He did it illegally. He invaded a third world country and bombed hospitals and homes and cities. That is not a legal war. If you pay taxes to support this government and this war effort and George Bush is ever convicted of war crimes or illegal activities or terrorism, you are as guilty as him. If the CIA is conducting black operations and terrorists activity using our tax dollars then you are as guilty as them. If you support Israel's bombing and invasion of Gaza and their terrorist agency then you are just as guilty as they are. (Evangelic Christians support Israel.) Why anyone would support Israel is beyond me, especially Christians. They (Israelis) are either anti-Christian or anti-God. They have no right to be there. God did not promise that land to them. Who the crap do they think they are? 
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