That has to be the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Show me a single day on planet Earth when Christians weren't proselytizing Jesus down the throats of others.

I truly doubt that such a day exists.

"Live and let live" is a slogan that Christians have no right to even remotely utter.

Indeed.

My point was Krisma that you say Christians are responsible for killing in mass numbers.I was simply pointing out that the current and past leaders were NOT Christians nor were they associated with any type of Christianity.We have leaders living today and in this century that have killed millions of people.Why you keep beating a dead horse trying to blame Christians for America's and the worlds problems when you have radical leaders killing people today!You just sound like a hypocrite when you have to bring back something that happened over 400 years ago(like the salem witch trials)to bring up any kind of dirt on the Christians which is totally irrelevant to todays views on Christianity.I don't know why you must keep your head in the sand and ignor what is happening here and right now in America.That fact is that Christians have not been responsible for any kind of mass murder in the last couple of hundred years and certainly not since this country was founded.The record for Christians in clean since America was founded.Start living in the 21st century!

Thomas said:



Oh no. Im laughing so hard. Okay Thomas.

Once again your living in the same fantasy world Abra is.If you think I am going to believe that a Pagan somehow gets more decimation than a Jew,Christian,or a Muslim in modern society your dreaming.I have never read a single story where a Pagan religion was attacked,assaulted,or otherwise degrated.If you think you can find a story or blog on the internet that has Pagans saying otherwise I welcome it.

Do I believe Pagans are not allowed to have their religion in America due to government or other bodies of power-nope



Do I belive Pagans have to live in secure buildings and homes for attack of retalition because of their religion-nope

Do I belive Pagans have the same rights everyone else has regarding practicing religion-yes

What a Pagan means to me....

Woman-Typically overweight long curly hair wearing a cape and a purple dress.Bi sexual and probably works at a coffee shop.

Man-Skinny long blonde haired geek who lives in his moms basement and plays computer games all day long.Probably doesn't have a job and typically doesn't have a car.

Thomas you are requesting that I take possession of something that I can not rightly do. I am not a practicing Wiccan, however I know people who are and I also hear their stories. I know the reality of what they face on a day to day basis. Im sorry you feel so badly of people who practice a pagan spirituality or set of beliefs yet it really does not surprise me either. Thats what I meant when I stated that in the thousands of years, we have gone nowhere.

Are you trying to compare this to my personal feelings about Christians? Do you expect me to sit here like an 8 year old and name call them in descriptive terms such as "fat" and "nerd". No I wont do that. There are all kinds of Christians just as there are all kinds of Pagans. I dont feel the need to pigeon hole them all together..

If you ask me to give you an honest assessment of Christianity as an organized religion since its inception. that i will do. In fact that is all I have been doing.

Just for the record

" 'Never again the burning times' survives as more than a mantra for only as long as it is defended by deeds." [A motto taken from a posting on a Wiccan mailing list.]


Do "whatever you have to, to stop the invocation...[the] Satanists are taking over the city." A plea, perhaps interpreted by some listeners as an suggestions to use violence, by a Dallas, TX, Christian TV station, protesting a Wiccan who was to deliver a single invocation before city council.


Overview:

Information in this section has come from the media, reference books, the Internet etc. They may not be a representative sample of the cases of inter-religious friction that have occurred in recent years between Wiccans and Christians. However, they may give some indication of the seriousness of the situation.

It must be remembered that only a small minority of Christians take exception to the enjoyment of religious freedom, assembly, and speech by Wiccans.

Conflicts between Christians and Wiccans (and other Neopagans) seem to be largely unidirectional. Wiccans appear to have little or no concern about the religious beliefs, practices or activities of Christians, except when it involves oppression of fellow Neopagans or of other faith groups. Where animosity of Christians is expressed by Wiccans, it seems to be a reaction to previous oppression by Christians of Wiccans.

Driven by many factors, the frequency of Christina-Wiccan conflicts became much more frequent in the very late 1990s. The triggering event might have occurred during 1999-MAY-18 when a newscast covered Wiccan rituals at a Texas army base. Rep. Barr subsequently attacked the religious freedom of Wiccans on army bases. A contributing factor might have been the subsequent conservative Christian boycott of army recruitment until the religious rights of Wiccan soldiers were terminated. The boycott was ultimately unsuccessful and eventually fizzled out.

We were concerned in the late 1990s that oppression and violence might have continued to increase, for a variety of reasons:

Many lies and much misinformation are still circulated among some Christian sources about Wiccans. Neopagans, including Wiccans, are often accused of being Satanists, engaging in degenerate sexual practices and child abuse. Such accusations have circulated for millennia against religious minorities (including Christians themselves). However, for Wiccans today, the untruths did not seem to be dissipating.

Some Christians may feel threatened because of the increased religious diversity in the U.S. and Canada, and by the gradual reduction in the percentage of adults who consider themselves Christian. That percentage has been dropping almost one percentage point per year.

Wicca is growing rapidly. It is doubling is size about every 30 months. This greatly increases the opportunity for inter-religious conflict.

Fortunately, this did not come to pass. Instead the attacks on Wicca dropped steadily through the first years of the 21st century. We suspect that the main cause was that Wiccans became increasingly more public with their religious identity, their beliefs, and practices. Many TV documentaries on Wicca were shown. The public realized that Wicca was simply another religion among the diverse faiths in the U.S.

What are you talking about? What pagans have to conceal their beliefs? From whom - Christians?
Am I reading this right?

By using your logic - it would be more accurate to say that Germans are a murdering lot. After all - who did Hitler kill?

Hitler was not a christian. The only one who thinks so is you.

And of course communists didn't kill anyone in the name of God - they're atheists.

She is NOT the only one who thinks that.
It's mostly Christians who deny it against better knowledge.

I would have to disagree that Christianity is decreasing by 1% a year.

Using data from the period 2000-2005 the 2006 Christian World Database estimated that by number of new adherents, Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the world with 30,360,000 new adherents in 2006. This was followed by Islam with 23,920,000 and Hinduism with 13,224,000 estimated new adherents in the same period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion#Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion


Every twenty-four hours the world has a population net growth of 219,000 people. Christians number 170,000 converts per day but find 91,000 defectors, so the net growth is 79,000 Christians each day. Of the 2,113,199,000 "affiliated" Christians, 1,476,690,000 are "church attenders." How the database computers come to this next figure I do not know, but they list 175,000 Christian martyrs worldwide this year, which means 480 per day. This is down from 377,000 in 1970, Cold War and Colonial Wars years?


http://christianpost.com/article/20080117/statistics.htm

From where I am looking, many on thread have argued with the Christians on this point. Should we all be surprised that other Christians are denying that Hitler was a Catholic?

Yes you would be reading that right. This is in addition to what I have already posted.

Sources of the conflict:

Many factors have contributed to Wiccan - Christian conflict:

* The "burning times" From about 1450 to 1792 CE, approximately 50,000 innocent Europeans, mostly women, were found guilty of "witchcraft" and burned alive (in Roman Catholic countries), or hanged (in Protestant countries). They were primarily convicted by civil courts, not by the Inquisition as is commonly believed. However, the Christian church is indirectly responsible for the genocide because it supplied the theological justification for the persecution. The church developed and disseminated the false belief that large many citizens had sold their soul to Satan and were committing evil and homicidal acts. Most victims of the burning times seem to have been:

o Midwives,
o Followers of ancient Pagan faiths,
o Native healers,
o Single women who lived alone, and/or who owned valuable property,
o People against whom neighbors had a grudge, and
o Individuals who were accused by other victims, often under torture.

It is generally known that the Witch burning times involved the execution of persons accused of Witchcraft. However, the term "Witchcraft" has now grown to cover over a dozen more or less unrelated practices, including:

o The religious beliefs and practices of Wiccans;
o The beliefs and practices of religious Satanists;
o Fictional stories of imaginary persons who fly on broomsticks, perform magic, change toothpicks into needles, etc.
o Fictional stories of individuals who sell their soul to the Devil and kill unbaptized infants in order to make evil potions;

The North American public relates the term "Witchcraft" to a strange amalgam of unrelated activities, mostly evil. Meanwhile, many Wiccans continue to openly and proudly refer to themselves as Witches, Pagans and Neopagans. Thus, they bear the brunt of much irrational public fear.

* Satanic Ritual Abuse: The Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) hoax gathered momentum in North America in 1980. It was largely triggered by the appearance of a book: Michelle Remembers. This was actually a novel -- partly based on fictional events, and partly based on spiced-up West African Aboriginal rituals. But, it was largely accepted by the public as a documentary of the horrible childhood abuse remembered by co-author Michelle Smith. This book was followed by many similar fictional accounts, by lawsuits based on recovered memories and by a series of witch hunts into sexual abuse in nursery and pre-schools. By 1995, belief in SRA had largely dissipated due to:

o The lack of any hard evidence that SRA actually happened anywhere.
o The discovery that some of the medical tests that helped convict alleged perpetrators were worthless.
o The discovery that interview techniques used by child investigators guaranteed that at least some of the children would create real-sounding stories of abuse events that never happened.
o The finding that most images created during recovered memory therapy were unrelated to real events.

Belief in SRA continues today at a very low ebb. It is rarely mentioned in the media. It still exists particularly among a small percentage of feminists and conservative Christians. They place responsibility for the the abuse on many small groups. New religious movements are most often blamed --particularly Wicca.

* Belief in Satan: Although about 60% of adult Americans view Satan as only a symbol of evil, another 35% regards him as a living being who "walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. 1 Most born-again adults and Evangelical Christians regard Satan to be the latter -- a supernatural being with incredible magical powers. This belief can create a high level of anxiety among conservative Christians. Many view Satan as an ever-present threat to them, their families and friends. Some believe that Satan has human helpers to perpetrate his evil deeds. Since Wiccans outnumber religious Satanists by perhaps 50 or 100 to 1, and because many conservative Christians do not differentiate between Satanists and Wiccans, the Wiccans again bear the brunt of Evangelical Christians' fear.

* Religious intolerance in the Bible: The Hebrew scriptures (Old Testament) contain many passages requiring the death penalty for persons who follow other religions. The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) states that when non-Christians worship their own god(s), they are actually sacrificing to "devils and not to God." Liberal Christians generally ignore these passages and accept non-Christian religions to be valid spiritual paths. However, many conservative Christians interpret these passages literally. (More details) Some Christian leaders refer to Hinduism, other Eastern Religions, Wicca, and many other non-Christian religions as forms of Satanism.

* Attitude towards other religions: A poll by Barna Research Ltd. circa 2000 revealed that 24%, 22%, 30% and 50% of American non-Christians viewed the overall impact on society of Islam, Buddhism, Scientology and Atheism as negative. However, for born-again Christians, those values rose to 71%, 76%, 81% and 92%! It is likely that the vast majority born-again Christians would still view Wicca negatively. More details.

* Hatred and misinformation: There are still a few Christian Internet web sites, which disseminate hatred and misinformation about the Wiccan religion. The Watchman Fellowship and many other Christian web sites disseminate a mostly accurate picture of Wicca.

* Sex: Many Wiccans regard sexual pleasure as a gift of the Goddess and her consort, the Horned God. They affirm consensual, responsible, safe sexual activity, by persons of all sexual orientations: heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual. Some have even integrated the Great Rite into their religious practices. This involves private, ritual sex between two Wiccans who are already in a committed relationship. Many Christians are unfamiliar with the long association of ritual sex and religion. They find this to be odd behavior at best and abhorrent at worst. Most conservative Christians find these beliefs and practices blasphemous, and totally unacceptable.

* Halloween: This secular festival has rapidly grown in popularity in recent years. Sales during this season are a second only to those at Christmas. Increasingly, public schools are celebrating Halloween and encouraging students to participate. The public is generally aware of the Pagan origins of the festival. Many conservative Christians are vocal in their opposition to the celebration of Halloween because of its Pagan roots.

These various factors had contributed greatly to Christian mistrust and suspicion of Wiccans. However increased publicity about Wicca and the openness of many Wiccans to freely discuss their faith have led to a great reduction in animosity. Hopefully, this will continue into the future.
Reference:

1. Christian scriptures, (New Testament), King James Version, 1 Peter 5:8.

Refutation of OP

Hitler's Table Talk

Those who deny Hitler as a Christian will invariably find the recorded table talk conversations of Hitler from 1941 to 1944 as incontrovertible evidence that he could not have been a Christian. The source usually comes from the English translation edition by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens, with an introduction by H.R. Trevor-Roper.

The table talk has Hitler saying such things such as: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."

But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus. On the contrary, the Table-Talk has Hitler speaking admirably about Jesus. But the problems with using Hitler's table talk conversations as evidence for Hitler's apostasy are manyfold:

1) The reliability of the source (hearsay and editing by the anti-Catholic, Bormann)

2) The Table-Talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's other private or public conversations.

3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity.

4) The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for "positive" Christianity.

The reliability of the source

Not one of Hitler's table talk conversations were recorded or captured by audio, film, or broadcast on radio. According to H.R. Trevor-Roper, Hitler refused to admit any mechanical recorder into his room. Hitler reluctantly allowed Martin Bormann to pick stenographers (Heim, Piker) to record the conversations. It was Bormann's idea to record Hitler's thoughts in the first place. In a facsimile written after the last of Hitler's recorded table talk, Bormann wrote a directive that stated:

"Please keep these notes most carefully, as they will be of very great value in the future. I have now got Heim to make comprehensive notes as a basis for these minutes. Any transcript which is not quite apposite will be re-checked by me." [Trevor-Roper, inset] (bold characters, mine)

"Apposite" means, fitting; suitable; appropriate. Exactly what Bormann means by "re-checked" can only be speculated upon. However, it bears importance here that neither Heim nor Bormann could hardly be in a position to determine what deems apposite, considering Bormann's biased views against Catholicism. Should we take it as simply coincidence that the church denouncements by Hitler in the Table-Talk parallel the anti-church sentiments of Martin Bormann, but nowhere else?

Martin Bormann served as the instigator, fuel, and reason for the perception of many Christians that Nazism was against Christianity. Many times, quotes attributed to Hitler are actually Bormann's. It is well known that Bormann secretly worked against the Catholic religion behind Hitler's back and without his permission. It has been pointed out that "the fight against the church organizations" were Bormann's pet project. In spite of Bormann's repeated attempts to persuade Hitler to act against the Churches, Hitler insisted that "There has been no official Party announcement, nor will there be one." [VonLang, p.191]

How can any honest seeker of truth rely on Hitler's table talk when the entire transcript was edited and kept by the anti-Catholic Bormann?

Two scribes recorded Hitler's conversations at the appointment of Martin Bormann. One was recorded by a civil servant in the Reich Ministry of Justice, Heinrich Heim from 5th July 1941 to 20th March 1942. Later, from 21st March 1942 until 31st July 1942, it was taken by Dr. Henry Piker. The record, whether taken by Heim or Picker, was passed to Bormann. Bormann made two copies of his record. One of these was kept in the Fuhererbau in Munich and was burnt at the end of the war; the other was sent to the Berghof at Berchtesgaden and came ultimately into the hands of M. Genoud. It is this second copy of which the volume of Hitler's table talk was translated. [Trevor-Roper, p.viii]

Moreover, Dr. Picker regarded his own recording as authentic and insisted that "no confidence can be placed in Bormann's editing of it." Indeed, he writes, rather testily, of "Bormann's alterations, not authorised by me." [Trevor-Roper, p.viii]. Unfortunately, we do not have the unaltered version of Dr. Picker's or Heim's recordings.

In other words, there are no originals and the copies were filtered and edited by Bormann. The table talk cannot be considered a first-hand recording of Hitler's words. On this fact alone, I cannot with integrity or certainty use them as a source for Hitler's voice, especially in regards to religion which could very well reflect the anti-Catholic biased Bormann.

Although nowhere does Trevor-Roper argue against Hitler's Christianity, he does provide us with a rather dubious reason for accepting Hitler's table talk:

"We must go direct to Hitler's personal utterances: not indeed to his letters and speeches-- these, though valuable, are too public, too formalised for such purposes-- but to his private conversations, his Table-Talk. Table-Talk, like notebooks, reveal the mind of a man far more completely, more intimately, than any formal utterance." [Trevor-Roper, p.xiv]

Unfortunately, Trevor-Roper fails to give us a reason why the Table-Talk supposedly gives a more intimate look at a person. On the contrary, I would find it far more revealing to hear a reasoned and thought out response as this would more likely provide an accurate account of one's actual thinking. (I would shudder to think how one would misinterpret my personal feelings from my utterances during lighthearted dialog.)

But more damaging to Trevor-Roper's reasoning is that the Table-Talks were not private! Hitler knew all along that the scribes were there to give an account of him for future posterity. These were as public as any of Hitler's letters and pre-written speeches. So in what sense could these 'loose' conversations reveal more than letters and speeches? Trevor-Roper nor anyone else gives us a good answer.

The table talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's other private or public conversations

If Hitler actually desired to eliminate personal Christianity, then why do we not find it in his other private dialogs and conversations? Why do we not find it in any of his public speeches or interviews?

In the Secret Conversations with Hitler, two recently discovered confidential interviews were given by Richard Breiting in 1931. Breiting was a member of the German People's Party. In these conversations, (which were actually more private than the Table-Talk), Hitler reveals his aims and plans. Like the Table-Talk, the notes were taken in short-hand. Unlike the Table-Talk, which Hitler knew would later be revealed, Hitler was assured that his statements would be kept secret. [Calic, p.11] Moreover, the Secret Conversations were authenticated as written solely by Breiting (unlike the editing by Bormann). Yet nowhere in these conversations does Hitler denounce religion. On the contrary, Hitler mentions a conciliation with Roman and German Catholicism where "people like von Papen and many others are establishing good relations with the Vatican."

In Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confidant, Hitler reveals himself through conversation to colleagues from a conference on economic policy. In it Hitler is reported to have spoken, glowingly, about raising the "treasures of the living Christ," "the persecution of the true Christians and sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man and to turn away from the anti-Christian , smug individualism of the past," and "to educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers!" [Turner, Ch. 23]

Nowhere in the Memoirs do we find a Bormann-like anti-Christian statements as found in the Table-Talk.

Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity

A damaging blow to any apologist argument against Hitler's Christianity comes from the fact that nowhere in any known source does Hitler denounce his Christianity or Jesus.

If one is to use the Table-Talk as evidence against Hitler's Christianity, then where does it appear? Nowhere in Trevor-Roper's introduction does he argue that Hitler was not a Christian.

Nowhere in the conversations of Table-Talk, does Hitler denounce his Christianity or Jesus.

On the contrary, Hitler's (or Bormann's editing) aims to show that the Church form of religion produces lies, and that the original Christian religion was an incarnation of Bolshevism, from a falsification from St. Paul. But whenever he mentions Christ, Hitler has nothing but admiration:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who too up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore-- of a whore and a Roman soldier.

The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galiean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him.
-Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 76]

Christ was an Aryan, and St. Paul used his doctrine to mobilise the criminal underworld and thus organise a proto-Bolsevism.
-Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 143]



As tortured as Hitler's logic is, He never condemns Jesus. On the contrary, he sees Jesus as an Aryan, a liberator against Jewish oppression! If Hitler did not see himself as a Christian, then why doesn't he condemn Jesus? Why doesn't he accuse Christ as being a Jew? Why does he see Christ as a liberator?

Biographer John Toland explains Hitler's reason for exterminating the Jews:

Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, 'I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so,' he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God-- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty.[Toland, p. 703]

Moreover, there are no known documents, speeches, or proclamations by Hitler where he even comes close to denouncing his belief in Christianity, or Jesus.

The Protestant and Catholic Churches in Hitler's time never accused Hitler of apostasy. Hitler's Christianity in Germany was never questioned until years after WWII and then only by Western Christians who are embarrassed to have him as a member of their faith-system.

The reasoning by the apologists in regards to the Table-Talk seems to be that because Hitler spoke against organized religion, then he must therefore be anti-Christian. But even if we take this simplistic approach and assume the Table-Talk as the actual thoughts and beliefs of Hitler, it fails for the simple reason that dismissing a religion of one's own faith does not exclude or excuse one from a personal belief as a Christian. A Christian is simply a person who believes in God and Jesus in some form or manner. Christianity, the body of believing people, simply does not require organized religion at all.

There are many examples of prominent Christians who denounced religions who opposed their own personal beliefs. Indeed, the Protestant reformer, Martin Luther who was once a Catholic monk, denounced the Catholic hierarchy as the work of the anti-Christ and establised by the Devil [Against the Papacy established by the Devil (1545)]. Yet I have yet to see a Lutheran accuse Luther as being a non-Christian. The history of Christianity is filled with examples of people of differing Christian faiths denouncing each other. I have personally conversed with many Christians who have denounced all forms of religious organizations, yet they have a strong belief in God and Jesus Christ.

Indeed, even the Table-Talk has Hitler saying:

Luther had the merit of rising against the Pope and the organisation of the Church. It was the first of the great revolutions. And thanks to his translation of the Bible, Luther replaced our dialects by the great German language! -Table-Talk [p. 9]

If simply speaking against a Christian religion were enough to oust one from Christianity, then some of the most influential Christians would have to reside with Hitler.

The papacy is truly the real power and tyranny of the Antichrist.... As beautiful as it was to keep a state of virginity, in the early days of Christianity, so abominable has it now become, when it is used as a means of eliciting Christ's help and grace. -Martin Luther (Luther's Confession, March 1528)

We maintain that the government of the Church was converted into a species of foul and insufferable tyranny. -John Calvin (The Necessity of Reforming the Church, 1544)

If we used the same logic of the apologists against Hitler, then we should remove Luther, Calvin, and many other prominent so-called-Christians from membership of Christianity.

The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for his views for Christianity

Further injuries to the argument against Hitler's Christianity reveals itself in Hitler's own personal actions toward Christianity.

If Hitler had really wished to eliminate Christianity, then why did he act to unite the Protestant and Catholic Churches in Germany?

If Hitler wanted to denounce Christianity, then why did he remain a Catholic in good standing until he died?

Why did Hitler not break the Concordat between the Vatican and Germany? A case might be made that Hitler signed the Concordat in the first place, to help himself into power, but by no means does it explain why he kept it after winning power. His absolute power of the German state, Hitler could have, at any time, broke the Concordat if he was so against the Catholic religion. Why did he not do so, nor even consider it?

In Albert Speer's memoirs, Speer recalls Hitler as saying: "The church is certainly necessary for the people. It is a strong and conservative element." [Speer, p. 95] Although Hitler approved of destroying Judaism and other cults, never did he give orders against the Protestant or Catholic Church. Why not?

Even in the Table-Talk, although he wished the 'Bolshevism' form of Christianity to die a natural death, he expressed his views on the future:

I envisage the future, therefore, as follows: First of all, to each man his private creed. Superstition shall not lose its rights. The Party is sheltered from the danger of competing with the religions. -Table-Talk [p. 62]

Nor can the Table-Talk be used to argue for an atheist Hitler:

We don't want to educate anyone in atheism. Table-Talk [p. 6]

An uneducated man, on the other hand, runs the risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the animal)... Table-Talk [p. 59]

Nor can the Table-Talk be used to argue for a pagan Hitler:

It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan. Our old mythology had ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. -Table-Talk [p. 61]

If Hitler was opposed to personal Christianity then why did he order his chief associates, including Goering and Goebbles, to remain members of the church? Hitler too, remained in the church until he died. [Speer, p. 95-96; Helmreich, p.220]

The Nazi programme called for "positive Christianity." Why did Hitler include Christianity within his own constitution? Even more revealing is that Hitler never eliminated the Christian statement. If Hitler was so set against Christianity, why did he keep it in?

Speer, it must be remembered, was Hitler's architect who had planned the future buildings of Berlin. Hitler's plan for the future included the building of new churches. Speer had consulted with the Protestant and Catholic authorities on the location of churches in the new section of Berlin. According to Speer, "Bormann curtly informed me that churches were not to receive building sites." [Speer, p. 177]. Again, this shows the bias against Christianity by Bormann, the editor of the Table-Talk.

Even more revealing from Speer comes this revelation:

Even after 1942 Hitler went on maintaining that he regarded the church as indispensable in political life. He would be happy, he said in one of those teatime talks at Obersalzberg, if someday a prominent churchman turned up who was suited to lead one of the churches- or if possible both the Catholic and Protestant churches reunited. He still regretted that Reich Bishop Muller was not the right man to carry out his far-reaching plans. But he sharply condemned the campaign against the church, calling it a crime against the future of the nation. For it was impossible, he said, to replace the church by any party ideology. [Speer, p. 95] (bold characters, mine)

Hitler had no problem with the elimination of the Jewish religion but note that the Christian Churches in Germany remained strong until Hitler died. So much for Hitler's alleged views to eliminate the Christian churches.

Unused quotes

In an attempt to rewrite history, those who desire to eliminate Hitler from membership of Christianity, always find an excuse to dismiss Hitler's actual words. Instead they rely on indirect quotes from a questionable source such as Bormann's edited version of the table talk. But if we were to use this form of dubious scholarship, shouldn't we also quote Hitler from other indirect sources? If so, then, again, their plan fails and reveals the slanting of their bias. For if we took these apocryphal sources as evidence, then Hitler's Christianity become even more evident.

Those who knew Hitler remarked about his Christian views.

Here we have a Christian minister to his fellow Christians:

If anyone can lay claim to God's help, then it is Hitler, for without God's benevolent fatherly hand, without his blessing, the nation would not be where it stands today. It is an unbelievable miracle that God has bestowed on our people.

-Minister Rust, in a speech to a mass meeting of German Chrisitans on June 29, 1933 [Helmreich, p. 138]



The established Methodist church paper, the Friedensglocke, vouched for the authenticity of a story about Hitler where he invited a group of deaconesses from the Bethel Institutions into his home at Obersalzberg:

The deaconesses entered the chamber and were astonished to see the pictures of Frederick the Great, Luther, and Bismarck on the wall. Then Hitler said:

Those are the three greatest men that God has given the German people. From Fredrick the Great I have learned bravery, and from Bismarck statecraft. The greatest of the three is Dr. Martin Luther, for he made it possible to bring unity among the German tribes by giving them a common language through his translation of the Bible into German....

[Note that Hitler's own words about his admiration for Martin Luther are expressed in Mein Kampf.]

One sister could not refrain from saying: Herr Reichkanzler, from where do you get the courage to undertake the great changes in the whole Reich?

Thereupon Hitler took out of his pocket the New Testament of Dr. Martin Luther, which one could see had been used very much, and said earnestly: "From God's word." [Helmreich, p. 139]

Even the Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich who visited Hitler at his mountain retreat in Obersalzburg confessed:

Without a doubt the chancellor lives in faith in God. He recognizes Christianity as the foundation of Western culture...[Helmreich, p.279]

And this comes from reputable Christian sources of the day including a Cardinal! How odd that there are Christians today who think they can divine the mind of an anti-Christian Hitler they never met, removed by a generation, and dismiss all his direct quotes about Jesus, while denying their own brethren of the Church who actually talked with Hitler. If prominent Christians in the 1930s could be so easily deceived, could not be the same be applied to today's Christians? And if deception describes the temper of the faithful, then what does that say for Christianity as a whole and the thinking process that it entails?

And on Hitler's allegiance to his "true" Christian spirit:

I do not remember even a single occasion when Hitler gave any instructions that ran counter to the true Christian spirit and to humaness.

-Wagener, in Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confinant, p.147

To Wagener, Hitler confessed his attitude toward his view of true Christianity as a form of socialism as opposed to those he thought did not understand Christianity. Note Hitler's view here of socialism was not like that of communism (Hitler detested communism) but rather one of a National nature (very similar to Right Wing Christians in America who want to nationalize Christianity) and which later would become the foundation of the National Socialist German Workers Party or NSDAP (where the term "Nazi" derived):

Socialism is a question of attitude toward life, of the ethical outlook on life of all who live together in a common ethnic or national space. Socialism is a Weltanschauung!

But in actual fact there is nothing new about this Weltanschauung. Whenever I read the New Testament Gospels and the revelations of various of the prophets and imagine myself back in the era of the Roman and late Hellenistic, as well as the Oriental world, I am astonished at all that has been made of the teachings of these divinely inspired men, especially Jesus Christ, which are so clear and unique, heightened to religiosity. They were the ones who created this new worldview which we now call socialism, they established it, they taught it and they lived it! But the communities that called themselves Christian churches did not understand it! Or if they did, they denied Christ and betrayed him! For they transformed the holy idea of Christian socialism into its opposite! They killed it, just as, at the time, the Jews nailed Jesus to the cross; they buried it, just as the body of Christ was buried. But they allowed Christ to be resurrected, instigating the belief that his teachings too, were reborn!

It is in this that the monstrous crime of these enemies of Christian socialism lies! What the basest hypocrisy they carry before them the cross-- the instrument of that murder which, in their thoughts, they commit over and over-- as a new divine sign of Christian awareness, and allow mankind to kneel to it. They even pretend to be preaching the teachings of Christ. But their lives and deeds are a constant blow against these teachings and their Creator and a defamation of God!

We are the first to exhume these teachings! Through us alone, and not until now, do these teachings celebrate their resurrection! Mary and Magdalene stood at the empty tomb. For they were seeking the dead man! But we intend to raise the treasures of the living Christ!

Herein lies the essential element of our mission: we must bring back to the German Volk the recognition of those teachings! For what did the falsification of the original concept of Christian love, of the community of fate before God and of socialism lead to? By their fruits ye shall know them! The suppression of freedom of opinion, the persecution of the true Christians, the vile mass murders of the Inquisition and the burning of witches, the armed campaigns against the people of free and true Christian faith, the destruction of towns and villages, the hauling away of their cattle and their goods, the destruction of their flourishing economies, and the condemnation of their leaders before tribunals, which, in their unrelenting hypocrisy, can only be described as balaphemous. That is the true face of those sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man, motivated by selfishness, personal greed for recognition and gain, and the ambition to maintain their high-handed willfulness against Christ's deep understanding of the necessity of a socialist community of men and nations. We must turn all the sentiments of the Volk, all its thinking, acting, even its beliefs, away from the anti-Christian, smug individualism of the past, from the egotism and stupid Phariseeism of personal arrogance, and we must educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each one of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers! This youth will, wit loathing and contempt, abandon those hypocrites who have Christ on their lips but the devil in their hearts, who give alms in order to remain undisturbed as they themselves throw their money around, who invoke the Fatherland as they fill their own purses by the toil of others, who preach peace and incite to war.... and on it goes.

- Hitler in Memoirs of a Confinant, p.139-140

In the second interview from Hitler's secret conversations, Hitler reveals:

We do not judge merely by artistic or military standards or even by purely scientific ones. We judge by the spiritual energy which a people is capable of putting forth, which will enable it in ten years to recapture what is has lost in a thousand years of warfare. I intend to set up a thousand-year Reich and anyone who supports me in this battle is a fellow-fighter for a unique spiritual-- I would say divine-- creation.... Rudolf Hess, my assistant of many years standing, would tell you: If we have such a leader, God is with us.

-Hitler, in Secret Conversations With Hitler, p. 68

On the Concordat between Germany and the Vatican, Hitler remarked:

We do not forget the influence of the churches. There will definitely be no Vatican crusade against us. We know Monsignor Pacelli since he was the Vatican's diplomatic representative in Germany for twelve years; as Secretary of State and adviser to Pope XI it is greatly in his interest that the German Catholics should at last have a statute [Concordat].

-Hitler, in Secret Conversations With Hitler, p. 79

Rarely do you see apologists against Hitler's Christianity quoting from these memoirs and secret conversations, yet they want us to buy only out-of-context quotes from the Table-Talk. There are many more religious quotes from these other sources, too numerous to cite here. I only give these examples to show that Hitler's Christian thoughts are expressed even more vividly in these extraneous sources. If I had relied only on these sources, the clarion cry of foul would rise from the ire of Christian apologists, yet their only rebuttal comes from the even more dubious copy of the Table Talk edited by Bormann.

Hitler, the Christian

Throughout his's life, Hitler showed a remarkable tendency toward conservative faith in God, and saw himself as a reformer and a savior of the German people, and he acted according to his beliefs. He called himself a Christian and spoke in admirable terms about Jesus. At no time did Hitler denounce his own Christianity, and in fact, appealed to Christ as a fighter, just as he saw himself as a fighter. He was baptized, he took the sacraments and received Communion. Was he a devout church goer? No. Did he appeal to prayerful priests? No. But appeals to physical places or the Church hierarchy are not what constitutes Christianity. Christianity does not exist "out there'. It only exists in the minds of certain people who profess a belief in God and Christ. That's why we can only appeal to the direct words from an individual to determine their belief, and Hitler expressed his belief with brutal honesty.

Those who vie against Hitler's Christianity conveniently dismiss his own direct words where he made appeals to God, Christ, and 'positive' Christianity. They fail to distinguish Hitler's Christianity as a belief-system versus "corrupt'' organized Christianity. It was the latter that Hitler questioned, not his own personal beliefs. Even more revealing: why do Christians rely on indirect accounts, and only on those which seem to put Hitler in an anti-Christian mode?

For examples of Hitler's own views on religion and God, see: Hitler's speeches & Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism.

His arguments toward the Christian religion regarded his strong reformation views of the Church as he saw it, regardless of how some Christians today dislike it. Indeed, he saw himself as a reformer similar to that of the alleged Jesus and Martin Luther, the Protestant reformer who also had strong words to say against the Catholic orthodoxy. Reformations always upsets the temper of the traditional believer.

Anti-religious views by themselves simply cannot be used as an argument against one's personal beliefs as a Christian, and gives one of the many reasons why Hitler's Table-Talk, even if valid, cannot serve as evidence against Hitler's Christianity but, ironically, actually supports his personal beliefs as a Christian.

In that time frame Witchcraft was a very serious issue not only for the church but the entire community.At the time people actually believed witches could put evil spells on you and kill you so it is not hard to imagine someone wanting a witch burned at the stake.It may seem bizarre for people a 100 years from now to read that Americans used to put people in electric chairs and electrocute them.They may think of us as savages.They may think it was cruel to lock people up in a cage for the rest of their lives.

I think we all know that even if the church stepped aside these burnings still would have happened.It would probably seem almost blasphemous that the church wouldn't have a say in these issues as it dealt so much with biblical scriptures.To put it simply the church was between a rock and a hard place.I know for a fact that the church always spared a person their life if they confessed they were a witch and wanted to repent.I know there was innocent victims but much like today's society there is innocent victims too.I'm sure the church looked at it as a battle against good verses evil much like the war we fight today against radical Islam.Although this is a dark spot for Christianity I can't judge them too harshly as they had neither the education or really any alternatives on how to deal with this issue.I will also say that I don't believe everyone who was burned was a victim.I'm sure there was some very violent and dangerous people who were a threat to the church and the community and in the hysteria probably did commit crimes and murder.




From a website on the burning times....


Who was responsible for the Burning Times?

Everyone. All segments of European society supported the Witch trials: the Church, the Inquisition, secular government, intellectuals, the "common" folk, healers and doctors. Shockingly, even Witches themselves supported the Burning Times.

The Church can honestly say that it killed few Witches. Most religious courts imposed non-lethal penalties, like penance or imprisonment. However the Church encouraged the intolerance and stereotyping that caused the trials, and its custom of murdering dissidents was the direct impetus for executing Witches.


http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/burning.htm#9.%20Why%20did%20the%20Burning%20Times%20stop?

Well then we are in agreement it seems. It was bad news yet it happened. I dont hold modern day Christians accountable for this horror. No of course not. That would be akin to assessing blame on white people of today for slavery in the United States. However as a Caucasian person, I must realize that this occurred. I choose to embrace it from a historical standpoint, acknowledge it, study it and not argue and try to come up with elaborate excuses.

I think you're all focusing on the media raised intent of Hitler. He wasn't just after the jews, he was after gypsies, masons (aka illuminati) and the world banking leaders as well as catholics.
Anti semitism was just the 'media' released smoke screen.

Dig past the anti semitism and you get a whole different picture of Hitler's intent.

Dig past the US need to find WMD in Iraq and you find a whole different picture as to why they are in Iraq. Can you say 'rapture' or end of days anyone? =))

Underestimating power mongers and world leaders isn't wise, and being sucked in by the media smoke screens keeps you uninformed.