That is the truth.

Didn't you see the smile?

Sounds like an awful lot of guys whining about child support instead of being to willing to do the right thing.

IF YOU ARE GONNA PLAY, YOU ARE GONNA PAY!

I would be happy to do anything in reguards to my own child.

For the guys dead set against a woman having the right to an abortion....Raise the fetus in a shoe box and tell me how it works out.

To the guys who want a woman to have an abortion just because they don't want to deal with the responsibility of a child....Slide a bent over coat hanger up your penis to show that you are willing to put up with the same trauma as your partner.

Until any guy can pull off either one of those options.....leave it to the women to decide...it is THIER bodies/souls that are going to deal with it.

Btw, thank you for respecting my opinion.

I have respected your opinions on here also.

Biology dictates certain realities. Males do not get pregnant. Females do.

I raised two daughters and a son in a home where discussions about sex were frank and factual. Many times humorous as well.

I always stressed to my son that he had to be much more careful about when, where, who and how. Girls by virtue of biology have more choices. They also have more liabilities. Like the risk of death and disease related to pregnancy. Fairly hard to deny maternity with a swelling belly...men can walk away much easier and so on.

As I pointed out to him, a mistake on his part could result in him having a child he may pay for and never have the chance to raise or know. Even if he wanted to very much. Is it unfair? Yes, but life is unfair. Men and women, by virtue of their biology are different.

Women die still in child birth. They suffer social the stigma of being single mothers. They struggle as single parents to support their children. Yes I know men have struggles too but in general it is much easier for men to escape parenting and financial responsibility for their children.

Until you guys figure a way to deal with these biological facts and make yourselves truly equal partners in reproduction there real is very little point in pissing and moaning about how women have an unfairly powerful position in this business of having babies. History proves that is wrong.

A little personal story.

One of our most affective sex ed lessons occurred when we purchased a new puppy. My daughter was in like with the hound and decided she wanted to help him settle in his first night. She pledged to take care of him through his first night.

When morning came she looked haggard. I asked how her night went and she sighed loudly.

"Well, I thought he was going to sleep. Then he started whining. So I thought he wanted to go potty but that wasn't it. So I fed him but then he threw up. A couple times I thought he would go to sleep but then he woke up crying again"

"Remember that before you ever have sex", I told her.

She and the rest of the family looked at me a little stunned.

"You can put the puppy in a box in the yard but you can't do that with a baby"

My daughter told this story to her girlfriends. Seventeen years later at my daughters wedding shower one of her girl friends told me that story made a few of them put off sex and to be more responsiable when they did.

I could not agree with you MORE, Quiet!

Winx -

If you didn't catch my posts in the other thread, I, too, am pro-choice for all the same scenarios as you.

Recapping very briefly, and hopefully in this thread I will not be termed "whiney, dishonorable, disrespectful, *get over it because you now have 3 children*, ludicrous, etc....

I was in love with a beautiful woman in my 20's...we made love, of course as most in that situation do, fully protected, yet got pregnant.

I so wanted this child of ours, yet she did not stating it was an "inconvenience for her life and lifestyle at the time", whereby "I had NO SAY in the matter - it was HER choice, not mine". I offered to do all the right things...marriage, financial support, etc., even offering to raise the child alone.

However, she still chose to abort - her right, right? I did not agree with her decision, but I did support it fully - financially, emotionally and spiritually.

I was ridiculed in the other thread for stating I still grieve over my lost child and was simply told "get over it, move on, you have 3 children now". I sincerely challenge THAT be said to any woman who has aborted and still grieves her "choice" years later.

I absolutely adore my children and provide for them without question or a single regret today. It is a shared responsibility between myself and my ex-wife, one that we both take very seriously.

However, due to my *personal experience*, I can't help but feel it is severly inequitable of woman to grandstand this "pro-choice" voice when it comes to situations like I had...yet, when they choose against the man's choice to have the child, the man is yet again "forced" to abide by her choice only.

Women - you don't want to have the child, yet your lover does - abort. That is your right.

Women - you want to have the child, yet your lover does not - give birth. That is your right, BUT make the necessary provisions to provide for it - alone or with government/family assistance.

Maybe? Maybe not? Again, personally for me, I would provide for the child either way...but, is it really "fair" here? I'm not so sure.

Biology further dictates that females do not and cannot be impregnated without MALE sperm.

One thing I loved, and still love, about my ex-wife is when she was "with child" she ALWAYS stated "WE" (her and I) were pregnant.

and once you do have the kids you can beat them just for the fun of it

great stress reliever

Not to mention, I only had them to acquire 4' high slaves around the household. They come in quite handy at times.

Need your lawn mowed, Quiet?

I *chose* to read your full post a little further...

and until you women figure out a way to deal with the biological fact that you will not and biologically CANNOT get pregnant without MALE sperm...

...kindly consider this process called reproduction...EQUAL.

It is not equal and until a man can physically carry a pregnancy to term or provide an artificial environment to do the same it will not be.

Don't get me wrong on this. I know men who have been deeply affected by a number of issues connected to reproduction. Some I know were treated unfairly and will bear the pain of that treatment forever. Still, over time, women more than men have had to bare greater risk and responsibility related to reproduction.

I am not up on the latest science but pregnancy in mice has been achieved without sperm.

So, can the possibility of human reproduction without sperm be too far behind?

Males carrying a pregnancy, an artificial womb and reproduction without sperm could change this discussion a good deal. Who knows what the future holds?

Somewhat of a decent retort, but holds no merit whatsover at this point in time unless and until a woman can physically/biology become impregnanted devoid of MALE sperm donated and that day is NOT upon us. Not to mention, we are not discussing the story "Of Mice and Men" here.

Unless your name is VIRGIN Mary...you gals NEED "us".

Yes we may need sperm to fertilize an egg but look around and tell me honestly that after that moment it's an equal playing ground.

Agreed. But, look around, we might as well say "which came first - chicken or egg", right?

Please hear me out, I have the upmost respect and honor for a woman's body and what it represents. It is pure beauty in all aspects.

However, I ask that women accept that fact that their "delicate" condition of pregnancy and childbirth would NEVER occur without the MALE sperm donation to set the whole process in motion.

Therefore, please tell me why we (MEN) are belittled, discounted and often times disrespected for the complete process of reproduction.

Simply and quite harshly (my apologies upfront) stated:

Women - male sperm = NO BABY!

What happens when a woman carries a child?

Her body changes and she is at risk for a number of pregnancy related health concerns. Males, having delivered their sperm do not experience similar health risks during those nine months.

Once her pregnancy and her plan to keep or surrender the child is revealed to those around her she experiences social, family and workplace pressures that a male can completely avoid.

Remember, until fairly recently in human history a man could fairly easily deny paternity.

Because of her physical condition her ability to work and support herself may be greatly compromised. Again, the male who provided the sperm does not experience the same disruption in his earning ability.

I am sure I could think of some other differences as well but I am feeling unwell.

Those differences, off the top of my head, tip the scale somewhat towards a woman having a greater say in whether to continue a pregnancy.

We can save the after the child is born argument for later. It's too late in the evening even for me. I sleep very little.

I do think the way men are treated in this process is often unfair.

Here in Michigan there was a man who filed suit for, and I might be wrong about exactly what he stated I will look tomorrow, wrongful birth. His contention was that he had made clear to the woman he'd had sexual relations with that he did not wish to be a father. He felt that he should not be required to pay child support because the child resulted against his expressed wish to not be a father.

At any rate...it's late. Maybe more tomorrow.

I'm acutely aware of what occurs with a woman's body during pregnancy/childbirth...being a father of three children. Not to mention, I nearly lost my wife due to an eptopic prenancy during our marriage.

Please try to understand and comprehend that men also suffer social, family and workplace pressures when a pregnancy occurs:

Social - Told "You MUST care for this child", or worse yet, "back away, DUDE...it's going to ruin your entire life". If you don't want this child or feel you can provide for this child adequately at that point in your life (which is often the SAME reason a woman will and does give to abort), then you, the MAN, are likely labled "dirtbag", "scum", "loser", and one who abandons their responsibilities.

Family - Let's discuss grandparents to be, potential aunts/uncles/cousins that want to fulfill their own dreams of being the part of the offspring's life...and if you, the man, don't do the *right* thing, you can potentially live a life of guilt and shame for not making their "dreams" come true.

Workplace - Oh, boy...let's not even go there, shall we? If a *man* is committed to the pregnancy and health of his unborn child, he must also take time off of work to care for his pregnant loved one who is too sick/tired to go to work that day and needs assistance. How about the time off of work HE also needs/wants to take to make every doctor's appointment, every Lamaze class, and wouldn't it just be grand if men were granted 6-8 weeks of leave from work also post-birth to help his beloved with the newborn? Nope, doesn't happen (unless they are self-employed - which luckily I was and am). Not to mention most times, NOT all, but MOST...the men have to carry the financial burden, whereby taking on additional hours or extra jobs to carry the load.

Personally, as a father...one that gives his all for his children, I see no "tipping of the scales" here. Other than, of course, women who use the physical trump card at times to say "we have it worse".

Again, I love and completely women and their abilities to nurture and bring LIFE into this world. It is the ultimate gift, no question.

However, to use the "gift" as a sword against men who were not the architects of the reproductive system and state: "We suffer/risk more" is simply a power play for control.

We, as men, certainly didn't design the process...but, neither did women. I believe it was specifically and purposefully designed to be a SHARED process, and therefore a SHARED responsibility.

Men can't reproduce without women...and guess what? Women can't reproduce without men.

So, how about a truce and a call for EQUALITY? Most women tend to like that word...or so I have heard.

thanks Winx

You're welcome.

No, I meant if that not working drinking man brings friends home, I hope the children aren't around to see the man and friends drinking. You were talking about that man and I said I hope that the kids aren't home then.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I wasn't advocating anything.

Breathless,

That was a tough situation to be in for both of you. I can see both sides. Like I said before, there is no win-win situation with this.