http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZQjicepM8E

Clearly as noted, in 2005 (it could be higher now) there were 513,000 children in the foster care system. So unless you are simply in denial, no this is not a viable option. If the churches want to take responsibly for these kids, they obviously have not done anything of a sort yet and what good would that do? Are you simply going to take them out of foster care (where they are very often raped and abused) and put them into "Church Foster Care"? Well look on the bright side. They will still be out of your sight so you can feel that you fulfilled your "moral" agenda by forcing these women to carry a baby to term and give birth. I still have not heard you explain exactly what you would do to help these unwanted children on a personal level. That seems to be the MO of religious right wing types (you might as well be that to me)

I think primarily most American citizens STILL believe in a woman's fundamental right to choice.

That is a VERY significant difference. A fetus can not live outside of the woman's body and is totally dependent on her for its own welfare. Therefore it is not a living, breathing human. HER rights still take precedence over that of a growing mass of cells. It does not matter if it is alive. It is part of her body and no one else shall take the right to choice from her. She has an expectancy to remain in control of her own body at all times. This is the basis of human dignity and autonomy. And yes, in fact having an abortion does make you "un-pregnant" and you have no right to judge these women. Isnt there something in your bible there about

"he who casts the first stone."

I have addressed your statements over and over again. You refuse to listen. Birth control methods are not 100% effective. Pregnancy has still been known to occur when a woman was on the pill and even when a man is using a condom. The body has a biological imperative to reproduce and conceive. All mammals share this physiology. Not to mention in the case of rape and incest, the woman was IN NO WAY responsible for this pregnancy.

Absolutely I can argue the necessity for an abortion after rape or incest because I believe in the right of a woman to choose abortion under ALL circumstances. The fact that you would even insinuate that a woman who is the victim of rape or incest MUST still be required to carry an infant to term shows your lack of humanity. Shameful. Its barbaric.

I think it interesting that first off, you haven't addressed sh*t with me hon. I barely know you and have posted maybe 3 times in this thread. Seems you need to own it though.


Secondly, I think it interesting that you spout with such anger and bitterness. I just shared some facts with you. You know nothing of the movement in Colorado to pull kids from the system yet you say I am in denial. Right.

Enough discussion. Stereotyping is ignorance. That's what you've done in your 'explanation' if you want to call it that. What I see is a very angry post that you wrote, and do write.

I think everyone has a right to their opinion on the matter. You seem to think your's is 'it' ..
Something as important as life, or the ending of it, deems serious enough to debate KINDLY. and with the respector of other people's thoughts.

Denial? PFFFFFFFFFFFT. I've LIVED both sides of this debate. I'm as far from denial as a woman could be.

oh ya .. I love the 'force' word you use .. the only forcing I see is the incredible PUSH for abortion cloaked in the smokefield of 'pro choice' ..

I've worked in Pregnancy Centers and been on their boards .. they are loving & kind people who usually have stories in their own lives that have prompted their devotion (many times volunteers at that) to help other women make the right decisions.

Forced????????? Whatever.

I was responding directly to your post IN WHICH YOU QUOTED ME.I dont need to own anything. I am simply disagreeing with your emotion based opinion and providing supportive evidence to further substantiate my position. If you have ANY logical argument to provide then by all means, present it.

I have not demonstrated any anger or bitterness. I have left that entirely up to you. All I have done is countered your ludicrous "arguments." If you want to explain whatever the hell this church thing in Colorado is then do it but Im telling you that simply attempting to move these kids from one prison to another is not a viable approach.

If you presumably have some wonderful "insight" or a way in which this issue can be addressed outside of what you have already demonstrated, I am willing to hear you. If I can offer rebuttal as I have done repeatedly, I will of course. I dont understand why you are having such a hard time with this concept.

So are you going to address what I have presented or no? Im waiting.

Well explain what other term I should use pray tell if I am told I MUST CARRY A BABY TO TERM. Can you pretty it us some?

Why dont you do some real work and volunteer at a Planned Parenthood. That is the reality of the situation. You will have to weave your way through hostile protesters and crazy religious people each morning. You'll get used to it. Also the worry that one of them might bring a bomb in.

There is a program starting up to LOVINGLY adopt not foster children. To take responsibility for the precious children who are being passed around in foster care.

And yes Krimsa it's thru the church. Actually a lot of the orphanages & homes for children across the world were started by people who love God and humanity. Not saying the homes or communities were always right, but we are dealing with human beings and they fail. The ideas have been right though. It's funny how many humanitarian efforts have been started by Christians, yet the word on the street turns it around to be negative.



BTW .. I wasn't judging anyone, as you suggested in another post. I judge absolutely NO ONE. As I said I have lived both sides of abortion. I feel the distress and panic of crisis pregnancy. So please don't be putting off the stone thing on me. Anyone who knows me .. ANYONE .. knows that's the last thing i am is judgmental.

One method of destroying a concept is by diluting its meaning. Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living

Okay how would you feel about a woman that has an abortion? Would you understand her position or make any attempt to? Would you still allow her access to an abortion? That is what I meant by judgment. I feel the hindrance to the right to choose is a form of judgment. At the very least discernment and it is unacceptable because you obviously have made some mistakes in your life. No secret there. As have I. As have everyone else.

How are these churches in Colorado going to take ALL of these children out of foster care and place them is adoptive homes? What about the children they can not place? Where will the kids stay in between time? In the basement of the church? Be reasonable.

If the Christian right insists on taking the choice away from American females, it will totally destroy what's left of the church's credibility. Its not humanitarian. You are creating the problem and then refusing to take responsibility.

Who's creating the problem? You say that the 'right' has been irresponsible with the foster situation, and yet pro-choice has been irresponsible with conception to start with.

The issue as I've stated numerous times here, is NOT with the final answer in abortion, but with the lack of pro-active answers to conception.

We aren't some 3rd world uneducated country here. We KNOW about abstinence. We KNOW about birth control. Using abortion as birth control is outrageous and yet we do it.

Work at PP? I could never support an organization that was started by a woman who actually had an agenda against poor black women. It's so sad that the actual intent of PP was NOT for the good of women.

And CPC's are supporting life. Just the installation of ultrasound machines in CPC's across America have saved 70,000 + precious babies. I'm all about saving not deleting.

I have helped in the past. I've worked in them and been on their boards. I DO care for the crisis a woman feels when she did not think before the situation, but after. I WAS ONE OF THEM. More than once. But we should learn from our mistakes. Not make more of them to cover up those we already made.

Answers to difficult situations need love. And kindness. And compassion.

It's 6 in the morning here ... I'm getting coffee. Want some?

((( E )))

We've started with abortion. No rights for the unborn. We've moved to no rights for the infirmed, the physically challenged and the aged. What's next?

It's called SANCTITY of Human Life. We need to do what we can to preserve it .. not destroy it.

Alright...enough nonsense prolifers...how many can we mark you down for...come on...we have alot of kids up for adoption...take away the right to chose, it will double Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion—several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight

You are creating the problem and the rest of the "pro-life" proponents due to your insistence on stripping the fundamental right of choice from women. In this manner you are forcing them to carry a baby to term and give birth. Thats only the first travesty. Now you have a child that is unwanted that will need to be fed, clothed, cared for and the only manner in which this can be accomplished is via the state run and supported foster care system. Some of these children will be adopted. But many wont. You are still ignoring the number that Etrain posted so until you tackle that head on, I wont be able to discuss it.

I dont understand your argument that "pro-choice" is somehow "irresponsible" I have clearly explained why "pro-life" is creating the problem and whats worse, turning a blind eye to it. Another issue you have not addressed as of yet. Your personal role in helping these unwanted children that you have now forced into the world. Any day now.

All you are doing is attempting to create a straw man fallacy in which you are erroneously mis-directing blame. There is no way to weasel out of it. Even if you could, that would not account for the women who become pregnant due to rape or incest. I hope you are not attempting to assert that they are somehow responsible?

Your argument that women will somehow utilize abortion as a means of birth control is simply ludicrous. When was the last time you had an abortion? You claim you worked in a clinic which I am beginning to doubt, otherwise you would be well aware that the cost to terminate a pregnancy, even first trimester is very steep. Not all insurance carriers will cover it and even if they do cover it partially, the rest will be out of pocket. That is hardly a reasonable or logical argument to make. You should also be well aware that NO form of birth control is 100% effective, 100% of the time.

I woudnt expect to see you volunteering your time at PP because you clearly have an agenda.

So in other words, this supposed clinic that you worked at is now responsible for bringing yet ANOTHER 70,000 unwanted infants to term that will be a burden on society. Great. What a saint you are. Be still my heart. Once again creating the problem yet doing nothing to prevent or stop it.

I am sorry but I am beginning to have my doubts that you have ever worked or volunteered in either designation of clinic as you would have been more familiar with some of these issues.

Excuse me? Are you insinuating I am lying? OMG.

The things you stoop to. I worked at the Crisis Pregnancy Center in CT, was on the board for Concerned Clergy in CT and on the board of the CPC. I also work now for an organization that actually works 24-7 to promote life, not death.

Wow. That's pretty low sweetie. I'm kinda disappointed you would feel the need to suggest I am deceitful in any way.

I'm stunned.

(((Fade)))

And thats fine for you...great...but I'll be damned if I'll have a religion or government push there morals on me...but thats just me

And excuse me .. no one said anything about UNWANTED. When a mother sees her own child moving in her womb and hears the heartbeat .. unwanted is usually the last word they use.

I just wonder what experience YOU have .. I love the way the 'left' throws crap at the 'right' all the while yelling 'intolerance' in the name of humanity.

I'm done here. Glass house throwing stones is not my bag. You've done nothing but spout anger and blame. Yet you wrap it in exactly the opposite.

Have a good one. LOL

I have to agree with E....

It just simply isnt anyones business or right to tell me what happens to my body...

The only reason I began to imagine that might not be the case is that you are totally oblivious of some of these issues surrounding abortion and adoption. Unless in these "clinics" ALL they do is make sure these women carry these babies and give birth. So that is the only side of the debate you have ever been exposed to. There is NO WAY for me to verify what you are claiming as truth.

Are you going to address these issues or no?

MANY of these babies are unwanted or the woman is not in a position to properly take on the responsibility of child rearing either financially or emotionally. They would not be listening to any heartbeat if they had the abortion during the fist trimester. Its these crazy pro-life people that play the "emotion card" with them and make them feel guilty. You have NO RIGHT.

So you can not debate these issues? You are funny. Try at least.