Hi Redy... Nice to hear from you too.

We do not create ourselves out of nothing. With that I agree. Nor do we create a single thing out of nothing in nature. However, we do create.

I should have stated it more as us being SUBconscious creators... (Higher Selves connect with us via the subconscious).

Perhaps a "link" (like gossamer threads) connecting our Higher Selves to ALL of Creation-> The Ultimate Creator, is what connects us as CO-creators. ALL being driven by Love. Since these ideas and perspective of love "evolve" with each new moment, I won't even attempt to further define. All I know is that it continues to grow like a weed in gorgeous twists and turns on its own volition during the course of my existence.

Redy......your post took sometime to look into for the correct perception, but this is as subjective, so this allows me only one course of most beneficial action....

to speak all that is garned from your words in my perception, this then being spoken with no proposed or willed meaning, except as deemed fitting by any hearer............

it does not appear to me that you have thought thru all the proposals you deem "WILL" bring mankind together....

the statment that certain words will "NEVER" allow mankind to be joined together is heard.......

it seems to change environment, one does not focus on environment, as if to change the creation of environment itself, but rather to change what created the perception looked thru, that created ALL environment, seems as is the way to change any changable environment......

you propose we need not a new religion....

indeed agreeded emphatically, however the essence of all words spoken within my post could apply within ALL religions, and do not oppose any basic fundemental core truth of any religion, not one.......

there are many interpretations that spring forth from the root, that "build" the tree, and fall as the leaves of interpretatoins any religious tree......

indeed you are looking at the leaves, and say, "turn these leaves, the words of religion, into new ones, as these are "bad" words, that confuse, that confound, that cause division, and are not beneficial....

indeed you wrote much, but all seems to most present "leaves for change".....

perhaps a catchy slogon for a political campaign, as these notions are of the same plant.....

i speak most here of my perception of the essence of all the logic that i apply to your words.....

to me it is always the hearer that decide what is true, this being the true essence of the diobolical nature of all greater infintite truths.....

if what is presented can be totally meshed with all that is reailty now, and become as future reality, with no possibility of failure, then it is the most good......

so the eyes that write this post seek most to see this, and this is as the prime directive of the perception of sight, that create all logic within these words.......

do we not all as wise ones present our proposed "illusion", and paint it for others with words, the wise knowing this is the only way for true inspection of reality, to see if any illusion can be shattered, this making each and any illusion shattered as growing into more, the good tree of wisdom growing stronger each time, even though the "self professed wise ship of the mind" seems to begin taking on water, but it is only opening it's gates for the great flood of more data, as the ever unseen wheel of wisdom churcn in the sky of the mind, fulfilling the process of osmosis of all data one to another.....

seems to follow out all ideas to literal completion with all logistics traveled show easily what will be created....

ok, we are removing all "bad" words from society, as these cause war, or the following of "negative" emotions and thoughts, lol.......

ok, then a listing of bad words, and all potential damages caused by any suspect words.....

will some committee be formed, perhaps as a jury, these ones chosen by the public, to stand and represent all the people, determining what words to remove.....

do we not already have this type of process controlling all now, and having been this way for centuries, has brought no peace.........

certainally to make something happen that goes against the natural nature of humans, will have to have a law to enforce new greater definitions or new words, lol........

yes indeed, it is seen there will also be needed enforcers of the new order of new words, perhaps word constables, that will monitor with recorders in all areas for a slip of the tongue....

ALL WORDS BECOMING AS EQUAL IS OBVIOUSLY THE ONLY WAY TO TEAR DOWN THE TREE OF SEPERATIONM THAT DIVIDE MANKIND AS THRU RELIGIONS .....

there is no other way in the universe but this ONE way........

and absolute......ooh, this is dangerous, as these, if truth, can never be proven untrue, or there is a foundation problem with any belief....

hum........smiles......wonder what the honest heart says.........

follow any brach out other than equal, and what does it grow into....

how is there oneness in any one person created...

equal first within oneself is the only way....

no half state can be wished, or felt as better, lol........

all words willed equal to ears.....self will creates, not a law.......what is "negative" except what is percieved as "negative".........

all feelings within oneself willed as equal, all for a good reason, to direct, not running from "negative", not following some law of good laid down by the environment....

self free will to create balance, as how can ever any "law" create this........

the proposed notions that create the total essence of the reasons for all things written here are this.......

the proposed only time any WHOLE PERSPECTIVE CAN BE SEEN, or the "whole truth of the now", not what was, or what is "wished or percieved to be", all as filtered thru any and all beliefs held, cannot be seen except by removing a filter of all words as heard thru good and bad, and these common "definitions" of any word as accepted by all society thus far, are all as based soley on common emotions of percieved good, so the same being they are based on what "feels good", and if this filter of percieving words as "good and and bad" is removed, then emotions would come to be removed for processing any data for a first time, not a natural first state, abut thisctually allow emotions to be ever more capable of swift and accurate use when needed, not involuntary emotions, as led by them any longer, but logic now in front of emotions, not emotions as leading the logic, the same essence of what was once spoken of in text, of scriptures "getting behind" as many believe text, and this as for notions of good and bad to trail, scriptures draw upon emotions, these the same as to get behind, not leading......

greater perception being able to be clearly identified with the mind, seeing that itself has been shaped and "perpetuated" by all "environment", all environment builing it's foundation since the beginning of civilizations, on this same structure, with no indications ever being given that "religion come first from a "holy" and unholy decision deciding perspective, and filtering all words and actions and beliefs thru this......

this religion "within" perspective, perpetuates a religious root where all dogma spring forth, that come itself from the basic ROOT OF HUMAN EMOTION OF GOOD AND BAD, this the first of what create and give birth to all beliefs......

there is nothing outside oneself that is religious, lol.....

the human brain can absorb data at an expidential rate, even increasing unto magnificent proportions, to heights that simply amaze the present state of "proposed awarness" by removing a filter of half state wished for, or wishing or seeking for anything opposite of what is NOW........

how are these things as religious?

how does this speak of anything except the ways the brain words, thru my perception, which is just one singular idea, open to adding of all others, to increase perception, not disallowing some things, diminshing what is added, lol......

can we remove all words that MAY be able to be offensive, all words that MAY create confusion, as that is completely subject to the emotions of any, lol.......

i do not wish to follow the emotions of other beings without sight of where it is taking me, lol........

if you hear these things as religion, then is not one peering thru a religious filter, or persepctive, seeing and dividing as bad and good all things into categories of good and bad, the esence of the root of religion....

would this not be the same as seeing with one eye, only able to gather with one eye of sight from only the tree of what is good, or the same as hearing with one ear, wincing with the ear to hear only good, lol.........

all is good or nothing is good.....

all is equal, no matter what it is, or only half data is registered with the conscious mind, creating the illusion, that keep from seeing all data which is needed to see how to truly create, even what any is already seeking with all effort to create, lol.............

how is a religion formed.......

this is good and that is not good.......it is no more than this in it's root, but this would mean that each human is thrust into the root of religion just by being born, and this is why each sec is and was devoloped in it's infancy, all growing into empires of belief, many tasting of the leaves or interpretations, but all founded in an essence of it's neighbor is LESS correct, never allowing a gathering of all data of truth that each hold, and why i believe in EVERY religion of the peoples, seeing all was built on a foundation of truth, which leave sight of the interpretations that were created by dividing into good and bad, even seeing the thought that was percieved as a "negative", now flipping it into the positive it was meant to be, allowing to see the essence of the root of the truth that was percieved as "bad" creating divide, and founded the tree of any belief, and there is peace seen at the root of all things..........

who can remove the filter, that allow a complete state of knowing without all fear, how all opposites must exist within all as possibilities, as who embrace "negative" possibilities the mind whisper, lol.......

nothing using the mind of self knowledge from the tree of self preservation most as guide, can open the door with the key, that only the heart knows and holds, and no mind can touch the key until it is sought for the grieving one sees, of what oneself perpetuated in all that were touched on the path, and a new sight with the old filter gone appears, guiding into a relearning of all things already known once, now with a traveling back down the cobblestone path of good and bad, seeing clearly how the filter affected each move of past, along the path, and the way down the narrow path is passed one unto another, as the torch of truth is handed off time and again, as the time of the olympics of the mind has come to a beginning, and each cross the divide, never being divided again, and peace flow as rivers down all the streets where the angels of mortality have become each as one with self, and the fruits of plenty surround all with bliss of unity......

the twelth hour is counting down the hands of time, for the passing away of old time has begun, and soon shall be broadcast in the streets, in the open air, and some hearts weep, and some hearts sing, and the singing hearts help the weeping hearts, and all eyes do see and hear, for the time of the ending of all man is near......

David you got some good points man but you gotta stop talking like a college textbook. By no means do I mean this offensively either. I feel you have the sense to make a very logical conclusion about anything you want, but when writing you should focus your points a little bit more and use more common language. No one here (that I know of) is a scientist so whats the point in talking like one. Be sure to make your information easy to read because in the end if know one completely understands its because they gave up listening/reading. Again I am a fan of what you have to say so please don't take this in the wrong way.

Sgtpepper......

never any offense man, and sorry the things written are as such, and each day the seeing of both realms together allow greater description......

no worries EVER, as all words are as good and equal, and as beneficial to bring all to all wisdom, unity amoung and between all peoples........

things written are not things written from a conscious mind perspective, and are impossible to access but in only one way, and so can only come forth written in the same manner as when heard, lol......

please know that the constant knowing of myself as a handicapped ignorant one, that cannot speak with any eloquence, is ever present, and that all things written are as from a poor beggar, of forgivness and understanding.............peace

the heart in each writes nothing like the mind, and the mind cannot utter the things of the heart.........

Nope. I wont allow you to believe that for a second. Your not ignorant. You want to understand what you don't know and help others understand what you do know. Handicapped? I don't believe in the word. If you are weak in one area of your life than you are even stronger in another. Keep your head up Dave, Its on the top of your body for a reason.

as the old miller light commercials, "love ya man", lol.......

what that has strength that is everlasting, does not at all times see and know it's own weakness, allowing the deceptions that beset the mind to pass away, and strength of true wisdom to come forth, lol......

what is strong before it is made weak, so that true strength when it is born, never reach not down it's hand for the weeping......

I want you to read this book if you haven't already. I really think you will enjoy it.

"The Awakening of Intelligence" By J. Krishnamurti

If you choose to read it I am certain you will not regret it.

Sgtpepper......thanks and all peace....

as john the revelator the beetle that ate of the tree sang, imagine there is no heaven above, no hell below, and all the world is as one......

There are certain things most adults would agree belong under the umbrella phrase “human nature”. Davidben, they are few and mostly they are physical attributes at best. Philosophers since the days of Plato, and Socrates have attempted to find ... What Is Human Nature?

Anyway, the point is, we don’t know what is human nature, so any attempt to qualify or quantify it will only put you in one of the schools of thought and will not give you the broad scope of insight you attempt to use here.

With regards to your thoughts surrounding the “subjective” good, bad, idyllic, positive and negative use of words:

Words were created within a society. Those words were symbolic representations of the “similar thoughts and perceptions” of that society. That is how language develops. Words may have an individual meaning, but the context within which they are used is what determines how the communication will be taken (translated) .

ALSO, included in how one translates a verbal or written communication is greatly, sometimes totally, dependent on the culture (even sub-culture) of an individual.

Understanding that, it becomes evident that “words” are not bad or good in and of themselves. It is the context within which the word is used, and the culture of the one interpreting it’s symbolic representation, that will determine the NATURE of the individuals acceptance and action.

You consistently attempt to have everyone “filter” the good and bad from language. That is not possible. The “negative” that exists within language is not just a subjective view. Mostly it is a view ‘taught’ by a society within the context of its own cultural norms. It is there for a reason, it is often a necessary cultural warning.

Every language must have the ability to present a representation of fear, as well as wellbeing, of sadness and joy, of oppression and freedom. To do that requires learning the symbolic representation of each of those words. We do that through sharing thoughts, experiences and ultimately; empathy.

That is how I understand language.

Yeah, let's keep debating this one. I'm sure we can work it out in a couple hours....

The premise of your words is what keeps us “trying”. There is, I dare say, a commonality within “human nature” and it is to see the joining of all humans into one society, to end THE WARS. The term “global society” is an attempt to get all people to begin to see this common goal. I have seen the goal, I have accepted it’s possibility and I prepare for a role in such a society.

But DavidBen, I am, above all, a realist and the path I’ve chosen may benefit only few. But I take it, hopeful of broader implications. We have yet more battles to encounter, deadly and gruesome I expect them to be. It won’t be language that moves the battle, it will be fear of change, fear of loss of culture, of individuality, Fear that THE MASTER, one will be asked to serve, will be humanity instead of self.

In retrospect of previous posts in this thread, I can say that perhaps the idea that we ‘create’ is broader than I thought at first.

Humanity has “created” a separateness between the that part of the person that is body and the internal self. In that creation the first master is born, the self.

It may well be that our evolution has included instinctual drives to be a socially obligated species for self-preservation. For this reason humans instinctively understand there is fault with being completely self-serving. Makes it understandable why it becomes necessary for humans to further “create” an external master, (the creator). It makes it clear to other humans, to accept such a god-head indicates that one is actually submissive to the “social order” when in fact it is the self that is being satisfied.

Finally the creative myths, originally meant to shield one’s ability to be self-serving, became so tightly weaved that fear is all that can fit between the threads.

Fear that the self-serving master will be discovered is probably greater than the fear of loosing the external god-head. It may require that one STOP separating the “self” from the body. A fear so great that some believe they will have eternity tied to this body – thereby alleviating the very existence of such a fear. (we really are creative creatures, but only in our minds)

As long as we continue to see ourselves as separated entities relegated to a hierarchy of power it will be necessary for religions to be a cover for such thinking.

We must learn to serve humanity and protect that which upon which our existence depends; the planet. Humanity, one master, only then will the self be seen as one complete entity of body, mind within all of humanity.

Someone that I know and love studied under Krishnamurti.

I have that book and it is amazing!

Also, if he wants to help people understand, he needs to quit making posts like 3 pages long.

I am not going to argue the philosophy presented here dealing with human nature . . . that would take eons.

The concept of nothing . . . . That is something I will talk about.

The concept of an absence of every kind of thing, is a huge fallacy.

I do not mean that in a derogatory way, some of the greatest minds to have every lived have argued over the concept of nothing. It is not to demean anyone that I call out fallacy in regard to this perplexing concept.

Many times here in this post an idea has been presented started on the basis of nothing, then something.

Many arguments for god start with well if nothing can become something then god did it.

I am here to tell you within this universe there is no nothing. HAHA its funny becuase our language does not even handle it. Our language was built based on the perceptions created through our senses, and our sense tell us that an absence of substance is quite common.

We sense places that have an absence of physical matter that is visible within the limited bandwidth of electromagnetic spectrum that we call visible light.
I can look out my door and see nothing in the way of my sight all the way out to a distant object. (Even the light itself is a something . . .) But we know now that in that space there are a myriad of particles all bouncing around too small to see (air molecules).


Oh well what are they bouncing around "in" you might say. How could they have room to move at all if there where not "empty" space for them to move in . . . . hmmm that seems a problem for the argument against nothing does it not.

Ahh but we go deeper into reality, to find the next layer of the reality onion.

Fields permeate our reality completely. No where is there a net 0 force of gravity, sure billions of light years distant from any matter there is extremely weak quantities of gravity completely undetectable, but its there.

Well what is gravity? Is it some kind of particle? We don't know, but it must be something to effect us in such a way wouldn't you agree? We theorize its a particle unlike other.

If string theorist are right then there is a weaving vibrating energy that permeates all of reality, that literally weaves the cosmos together, it can be thought of as a backdrop that all things can exist on. If we where 2D beings drawn on a piece of paper, strings (string theory) would be the paper. It IS the fabric that gravity and the higgs field have carved from.

Even when scientist suck out all matter and make a "void" they still detect energy randomly being created, particles are created spontaneously with a matching anti particle then they attract each other and annihilate transform into radiant energy and fly off . . . . It appears to our limited sense that this is a ballet of never ending creation and destruction . . . . but from what? The fabric of our reality is from what. The stretching of the fabric of reality and the subsequent release of the energy of that stretching causes the creation of the particles (E=MC^2)

Our universe is expanding, this expansion is stretching the fabric of our reality. When a rubber band is stretched it gains potential energy, well the fabric would also be gaining energy if it was not shedding this energy as it stretched. This is where the energy of the void is coming from.

Something from nothing I think not. The thing about saying its god is just as Di mentioned, it has soo many preconceived notions regarding it, that it really does no good to even bring that name into it. To perceive reality correctly you do need new words, words without meanings that are irrelevant to understand this reality and how we came to be here.

We have valid models showing the expansion of our universe out from within a tiny fraction of a second after the "big bang"

We have models that show how matter condenses under gravity to form stars, how stars live and die, how they create heavier elements within there cores through nuclear fusion. We have models that show how super novas spew out this heavier material and send it spewing across the "heavens"

We have models that show ways that the planets formed through gravitational attraction.

We have taken completely lifeless organic chemicals in the lab replicated prebiotic earth conditions, and developed RNA that could eat, grow, contain information and EVOLVE on there own.

All of this to me pushes any concept of god ( a god that can, or is willing to interact in this reality) back to the initiation of the "big bang" and if that is the case and some higher dimensional being decided to kick our singularity and then walk away, well WHO F*&@$ng cares!?

For me it is far more enlightening to explore "within" nature and leave that which cannot be reasoned, tested, experimented on alone.

However I do enjoy reading all sorts of philosophies and matching it up against the reality we have determined so far. Sadly most of the time it appears to be word soup with little in the way of solid defining characteristics.

These days philosophy is a tough cookie to crack, because science has taught us sooooo much. To be a philosopher like that of the Greeks, one would need to have a good education in the field of science related to the focus of the philosophical discussion.

To philosophize on the topic of human thought one would need to understand the pathology, and neurobiology of the brain.

To philosophize the creation of the universe one would need to have a fully formed education in cosmology. <something I lack>

If you like the concept of some kind of intelligence kicking off reality, then read a cosmologist philosophizing such a thing in the book "Cosmic Jackpot" By Paul Davies

______

Source material

Fields, nothing, something, and the big bang:
The Elegant Universe By Brian Greene
The Fabric of the Cosmos By Brian Greene
The First Three minutes By Stephen Weinberg

Abiogenesis: The formation of life from non life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg
(sorry there are other sources, but I am lazy)

Taken at face value, I would need to say no, there is no credible evidence to support the existence of the Christian mythological "god". This statement is not intended to insult anyone or hurt their feelings. Its just how I feel personally. Its a man made conceptualization and premise.

At the same time though, there is no credible evidence to say that "God" doesn't exist.

That depends on what you consider god . . .

Also when does lack of evidence help prove anything?

So if you consider a personal god that answers prayers, then yes plenty of evidence that he/she does not exist. Get together the holiest of holies, and go get a blind experiment together and we can prove that no answering of prayers happens . . . .

Well yes and there certainly are a lot of people running around claiming that it does. Unfortunately the burden of proof, as in a court of law, is on them. And there is a substantial amount of evidence to support the fact that it is nothing more than a "Creation Mythology", no more or less significant than any other people's on the face of the planet.

So what makes yours any more viable?

I'm just checking in... Do you fine folks have an answer yet?