Truly.

If people want to believe in Jesus on a personal level as their personal savior more power to them.

But when they start claiming who Jesus will accept or won't accept into heaven they have violated their own religion. They have violated Christ to claim who he will and won't accept. They are doing his judging for him!

Like I say, the gospels don't even back up that kind of craziness anyway. Only hardcore fundies who are tyring to use Jesus to spread hatred and fear into the minds of non-believers would do that.

It's just not right on any level. When a religion is used as a club to club people over the heads with it, then it's time to retire it and move on to something more positive.

Well I just posted the words of Jesus that conflict with your conclusions MS.

So maybe we should both quite playing Paper Pope and just let individuals decide what they think Jesus meant.

That's what Protestantism is supposed to be founded on anyway. No Paper Popes! Only the Holy Spirit speaks for Jesus through the doctrine to the individual readers.

I've read the doctrine and it's my understanding that Jesus came for the sinners not for the righteous.

This is what the HOLY SPIRIT has conveyed to me.

Who are you to challenge the HOLY SPIRIT?

You don't know what took place betwen them and God at that last moment, or in those last moments.

God gives everyone a chance to know Him.

Jesus was sent to the whole world...and crossses the borders of every religion...and therefore is not just for chrstians.
Jesus dies for All..and came to Save All......
and God WILL give every man a chance to know Him....in one way or another....and to those who have not known or heard, God will even send ministrering angels.....to reach man on the backside of a desert if God has to ..but God WILL let man know...every man (children are however excluded, and not held accountable, caasue they are too young to understand ).

Again..God is a God of Tender Mercies and Loving Kindness....and MUCH PATIENCE......He waits ever so PATIENTLY for man to come to Him...but man must come to God WILLINGLY.

God will NEVER force man to come to Him....one must COME to Jesus and recieve Jesus with a WILLING HEART..that is all God asks for...a willing heart to believe in the One He sent to save All mankind...Jesus .

Lily....God is MERCIFUL..so He is not going to send a down's syndrone child to hell...the truth is, God knows every man's time on this earth..and that means even children will be given a chance to know Him, that are past the age of acountability.

Visit a cancer ward for children......some of the most loving children are there...and instead of us tellng them about Jesus, they are telling US about Jesus, instead....and here they are... figthing cancer!!

So...point is...God will ALWAYS make Himself Known to man ...to give man a chance to accept Him, WILLINGLY.

So in other words, every other person on the face of the Earth who chooses not to embrace Christianity for whatever reason, is bound for hell? What if you have been a practicing Muslim your entire life and very happy and satisfied in your beliefs. You are asserting that if god asks you to join up at your death bed, and you refuse because you are Muslim, off to hell? This does not sound very merciful. Thats really not a selling point dear.

But MorningSong, if you truly believe this then why would Christians be so concerned with proselyzing and telling everyone they need to be saved.

If God will ALWAYS make Himself know to man to give him a chance to accept Him WILLINGLY then what's the problem?

Clearly God has not made himself known to me yet. Because I have not WILLINGLY rejected him.

Therefore I guess I won't be dying very soon, or if I do die then God will show up on my death bed and give me that opportunity.

Otherwise, God has not made Himself known to me. At least not in terms of Christianity.

Now if God accepts the pantheistic view, then I've probably been in good with God my entire life.

One thing for certain. I don't feel as though I'm at odds with my creator. If I am at odds with my creator it NEWS to me!

If I rejected my creator it's NEWS to me!

I reject the Bible. Period. And to the best of my knowledge that has nothing at all to do with God.

Cocaine is god's way of telling you that you earn too much money R.Williams

Its ok ... God's little brother Allah will take him in.

Although in 50 years time, Allah will have a bigger fan base that old JC.

I bet Abraphart will be so pleased both his sons have done better than him

What if he forgets someone?

What if Jehovah or Allah get there first?

Just reminding everyone of Lily's question, since this is going wayyyy off..

Here is a child of God asking God what is necessary for him to do in order to inherit eternal life.

And God said to him: Keep the commandments. And the child said to the Almighty: "Which?" Now, if there ever has been an opportunity given to the Almighty to furnish a man of an inquiring mind with the necessary information upon that subject, here was the opportunity.

"He said unto him, which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not bear false witness; honor thy father and mother; and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

He did not say to him: "You must believe in me that I am the only begotten son of the living God."
He did not say: "You must be born again."
He did not say: "You must believe the Bible."
He did not say: "You must remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
He simply said: "Thou shalt do no murder. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and thy mother; and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Again, can it be more clear than that?? Why would Jesus lie to this person and tell him something OTHER than what he needed for salvation? Does this make ANY impact on you?

Where is Jeffery Dahmer right now? If you believe that salvation is by faith alone, he is in Heaven, because on May 10th, 1994 he was baptized and accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior.

Can you imagine anyone who deserves to be in Hell more than Jeffery Dahmer? But he believed and was baptized, so to heaven he goes, to sit at the right hand of God. But what about the non-christian victims of Jeffery Dahmer? They go to hell to burn forever because they were "heathens".

What about the Son of Sam (serial killer David Berkowitz)? He is born again, and will go sit with Jesus.
What about Adolf Hitler? He was a supposedly fanatical Christian. (debateable, I agree)

But Albert Einstein, Andrew Carnegie, Albert Schweitzer, Carl Sagan, Thomas Edison, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Mark Twain, and countless other humanitarians will burn and suffer agonizing and eternal torture (by a God who loves us), not just for a long time, but forever.

I was taught, when I was a child attending a Christian sunday school, that good people go to heaven, and bad people are punished and they go to hell.

That's just not what the bible says. We are doomed to hell and eternal torture because of the Fall From Grace the eating of a piece of fruit, not Sin.

So much for Christian justice.

Krimsa...God Knows the heart of every man...and God knows when the heart of every man is ready to recieve Him, Jesus, the One sent for all mankind.

When that time comes when every man's heart is ready to recieve Jesus , I don't know of anyone , who has turned Him away and said no, Krimsa.....truly.

Even my athiest friends now have accepted jesus...and my friend who drew up-side-down crosses on my balcony , has now also accepted Jesus as Lord.....and my whole family have all accepted Jesus too( we were not raised christian).

Oh ...but they all were saying no... up to that moment they finally did recieve Jesus as Lord and Saviour......but recieve and beleive Him they eventually all did..and meant it.

I wrote to my beloved pappa continuously for many years, about the love of Jesus ...long letters I would send long distance to him...and he would always save them all....but would always say, " one day ,one day"....and one day sure enough did come around....it was years later, but Pappa did finally recieve Jesus ....and his life was changed forever.
(tears of joy)

Then when I flew hom to care for him when he was ill in his last 3 years,he would never even put the bible down....he was sooooo hungry for God's Word. (tears of joy)
He is in heaven today.

But again , Krimsa.... for many years my pappa did not believe..so there is hope for all who don't yet believe........God is not done with any of us here ...or anywhere...cause He is a God of much love and tender mercy...and much much patience...

Well like I say, not believing the Bible is not the same as rejecting Jesus.

After all, Jesus is nothing on his own. Absolutely nothing.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but it's the truth.

Jesus is not the God of the Bible.

The God of Abraham is the God of the bible.

You can't just pretend to believe in Jesus. It is absolutely worthless to pretend that you accept Jesus as your "savior" if you don't truly believe in the whole rest of the Bible. That would be pretentious and surely God would know that the person is being pretentious.

You must believe that the God of Abraham asked people to stone sinners today (in fact they were still obeying that directive when Jesus came onto the scene!).

You must believe that God told men to murder heathens and to destory the entire villages from whench they came including the women, children and even their lifestock.

You must believe that God cannot forgive sins unless he is appeased by a blood sacrifice.

You must believe that God is at war with a fallen angel and that he either can't control him, or he's playing games with everyone by allowing the demon to wreck havoc with men.

You must believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and sent by God specifically to die for your sins.

You can't be blaming the crucifixion on anyone but yourself if you believe this. You are the reason that Jesus had to be crucified if you believe this story!

To even imagine that you could stop or prevent the crucifixion in any way had you been there is the same as rejecting the sacrfice! It would be the same as saying, "No! I do not accept that Jesus be nailed to a cross to pay for my sins!"

To accept that Jesus died for your sins is to condone the crucifixion and accept it for the purpose of saving your own butt! You are agreeing to let Jesus be nailed to a pole to save yourself.

You have to also believe that Jesus and the God of Abraham are somehow the same monotheistic God (albeit in some kind of multiple personality disorder).

However, the bottom line is that you must believe that this trinty God appeased itself with a blood sacrifice just to save your butt.

You must believe that whilt all things are possible with God, clearly it was not possible for God to forgive sins unless he was appeased by a blood sacrifice.

It's a sick demented story if you ask me. A story that fits right in with the ignorant mindset of the ancient men who wrote it.

For me to believe that the actual creator of this universe would need to be appeased by blood sacrifices is more than I can believe. Sorry about that.

I just don't believe that our creator is that sick.

Now am I going to hell because I think God is better that than ancient Mediterranean folklore?

Does not believing in such absurdies warrant being cast into the pits of hell?

What kind of a God would do such a thing?

Clearly any entity that would pull such a rotten stunt as that is far less compassionate than myself.

Why should I believe that my creator is less compassionate than myself?

There is absolutely no good reason that I should believe this outrageous story.

To claim that to not believe the story is grounds for being cast into eternal damnation is nothing short of ludicrous.

How anyone can believe in such an archaic sick religion as this is beyond me.

You are so right!

Jesus simply doesn't support what Christian try to claim.

It's the Christians who are the liars! Behead them all!

I have always maintained that Jesus himself was a liar. He says numerous times that all your prayers will be answered.

Thats not true.

But I think, James, thats a little harsh ... I mean, beheading is a little archaic and unnecessary

Can we crucify them instead?

Well - it's your hypothetical situation, so I suppose you can have any illogical premise be true that you wish. So - she didn't believe in Jesus, yet didn't reject him - now how did she not get to heaven again?

Oh, right - she was playing hide and seek with Jesus.

That idea is surely worth merit.

The only sin that cannot be forgiven is blaspheming he Holy Spirit - which is the refusal of accepting that one has sinned in their life, and the refusal to accept Jesus' going to the cross as atonement for that sin. In other words - calling God a liar.

So - hypothetically - if someone has not heard of Jesus - hypothetically they can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

i was told tht god always answers prayers, but that sometims the answer is no.
so it just depends on how you interpet answering,
does god give you everything you ask for just ecause you asked for it, or does he use his judgement to decide if its in your best interest?

I'm not sure how you got that out of what I stated. In refering to Abra's hypothetical scenario (note: hypothetical) the charming young lady chose to reject God and Jesus. So why would she want to spend eternity with Him? After all - who is rejecting who in his story? She prefered to be with the God of Pantheism than with Jesus - so Jesus gave her what she desired.