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| Topic: I'm just asking for clarification.... | |
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Many Christians claim that life begins at conception, concomitant, therefore, with the creation of a new immortal soul. Since Nature (read:God?) spontaneously aborts as many 10% of the living bodies of these alleged souls, and as theorized in this thread that these souls are given a free pass into heaven by virtue of never having the ability to make choices, does it not follow that 10% of the population of heaven must therefore be embryonic beings without free will, sentinence or moral experience? Virtual autotomatons with nothing in common with the rest of the population? I've never heard a logical refutation of this idea from any Christian. If they say anything, they'll invoke the "Mysterious" clause, drop the hot potato and burn rubber leaving the vicinity. -Kerry O. seems like a fair question to ask - HMM?? But as usual, no answers. I guess they think it's a trick question. -Kerry O. |
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Edited by
davidben1
on
Mon 09/01/08 12:46 PM
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if i kill a man, do i not go to a place of emotional hell, of weeping and nashing of teeth of misery, as i flee arrest, so much so that some give themselves up, or, as i sit in prison, seperated from all love, and all that i once had, surrounded by much misery and hatred, am i not as tormented by my own deeds, and the seeing that i brought all this upon myself, so much so that many give up hope of there being anything good in themself, and of course when this place is arrived at, THEN all good can begin to spring forth, and a full understanding of what even FIRST made the deception that one wished to kill is seen....
THIS CANNOT BE FAKED IN ANYTHING......... one jot or tittle of excuse or blame put anywhere excpet upon oneself is for true remorse to be had, or just a knowing of what one NEEDS to know tricked oneself...... if this is not seen, of course one will do more of the same of somthing of the same nature and intent, maybe not the same extreme, as the knowledge of the self pain make at times avoid the same act, but only the true PAIN caused to anohter SEEN AND FELT give a great enough will to accpet all ones own actions, and why is was said wisdom come not to the prideful.......... if i step up and say yes, i have killed, am guilty, please give me my due justice, even in the face of knowing i shall recieve much pain and maybe even death, am i not "freed" from my own emotional hell, and place of weeping and nashing of teeth, even at times, some of these are released from the penal system, seeming to now have even a greater grasp on love and freedom, and create more that is "good" than many that have never "wronged" in such ways...... if i walk each day, knowing and confessing to myself of all actions committed, all the good and the "bad", which the mind HATE to see or recognize itself as doing any bad, will i not soon come to be freed from all "bad" that create my own unhappiness, flying as a free bird into the heavens where there is no emotional hell, or misery, or pain, or suffering, or lack of wisdom....... is was also said from the same text the kingdom of heaven was within, not some place in the sky people go to, lol......... even though there are some that do believe from text, with good cause, that such is also as true, as if one is "freed" from the "body" then would not there be freedom of flight and travel to other dimensions, and all travel within the single physical realm or dimension..... |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 09/01/08 12:49 PM
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Why people ask these questions of Christians or Fundamentalist is beyond me. They DO NOT HAVE ANY ANSWERS. They think they do, but they do not. They are not an authority for God or the Creator. They have no answers. They follow false doctrine, and they teach false doctrine. They are the blind brainwashed trying to lead others into blindness and delusions. Today there is a group of Jehovah's witnesses in our town going from door to door asking people what they think and feel about Armageddon, the wars, the end of the world and other such things. They first prey on your fears then they offer their solution ... God. Under their religion and their rules and their control of course. I printed a sign and hung it on my parents front door. It said: NO SOLICITATION ~Religions and otherwise. I love the Christians but I hate their doctrines. JB of course - what am i thinking JB - how stupid of me -  - from now on i'll just be >aloof< that is if someone will tell me what a --->loof<--- is? HMMM? I'll just wait till others post questions and then like you and abra, i'll tear them a new a-hole for being so stupid as to ask someone who has no answers to reply to the questions being posed - i was blind but now i see - 
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Many Christians claim that life begins at conception, concomitant, therefore, with the creation of a new immortal soul. Since Nature (read:God?) spontaneously aborts as many 10% of the living bodies of these alleged souls, and as theorized in this thread that these souls are given a free pass into heaven by virtue of never having the ability to make choices, does it not follow that 10% of the population of heaven must therefore be embryonic beings without free will, sentinence or moral experience? Virtual autotomatons with nothing in common with the rest of the population? I've never heard a logical refutation of this idea from any Christian. If they say anything, they'll invoke the "Mysterious" clause, drop the hot potato and burn rubber leaving the vicinity. -Kerry O. There's no reason to refute what you are saying - you are on the right track. However - the idea of "embryonic beings" falls short of the biblical doctrine of recieving a new physical body at the ressurection - until that time, it is the spirit that survives in heaven. Since there is no evilin heaven, there is no need to have to have discernment when nothing but the absolute truth is known. It is n't a matter of being an autotomaton, which I assume means having choices made for you. Why would one not remain with choices in heaven? It would be a matter of desire as opposed to the lesser of two evils, as it were. Also - why is one limited in "heaven" to the experiences here on earth - what does one have to do with the other - other than one having to answer for what they did here. If one does nothing wrong, they have nothing to answer for. What were you expecting to have to be refuted? |
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In the Bible it says that if you repent/get saved/ accept jesus as your saviour (however you want to put it) you will be allowed into heaven and say Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gayce on his death bed was saved/repented/ accepted Jesus as his saviour is he in heaven? and on the flip side would his victims if not given the chance to be saved/repent/accepted jesus as their saviour are they in hell? Unfortunately it is a common misconception among Christians that when one dies they go to heaven. Try as one might they will NOT find a Scripture that will side with their theory. |
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so what you are saying is "yes, yes infact the serial killer would be in heaven and his victim in hell" Ya, I can't follow an egotistical God like that, that would do such a vengeful thing .... I can go about my life knowing I made the right choice. Why are you asking? You already made yourself judge & jury in your "assumption" that God is egotistical. If you believe in a spirit world then what "spirit" are you worshipping? That's why God demands purity in worship. There are spirits attached to all that. I'm asking because I'm an open minded individual, and can see the forest for the trees, and this is one of my major hang ups in life about Christianity.... No one yet has answered my question that would make me change my mind, and yes, I am willing to change it. You won't get an answer that will suit you because you're confused. Studying this religion & that one does that to people. Oh so I should only study one and believe in that one that I study should I? I would say no to that one. I study numerous religions, and engage in discussions with those that hae faith in what they do in order to understand it better. But the conclusions you are making on Christianity in this thread is not coming from a study of it at all, but taken from the opinions of others that likely know less than you do about it. You would be better served to at least examine the text's of those who are claiming their intepretation of it is the right one. After all - what criteria do you have to assume any of the responses to this thread are the correct ones? |
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Those who refuse Christ, will be judged according to their Good vs Evil. Those who accept and then FOLLOW Him, will have Him as their Advocate at The Final Judgement.  I agree that even Jesus said this. He said that he did not come for the righteous, he came for the sinners. Some of us are more than willing to be judged according to our own actions. Those who feel they're going to be needing a lawyer better sign up with Jesus whilst he's still offering pro bono services. he also said that their is no one righteous but the father. he was responding to those pharisees that asked him why . |
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wisdom from the heart come to any that see oneself as lacking.......god
evidence one is good come from any mind wishing to find evidence it is only good......satan |
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if i kill a man, do i not go to a place of emotional hell, of weeping and nashing of teeth of misery, as i flee arrest, so much so that some give themselves up, or, as i sit in prison, seperated from all love, and all that i once had, surrounded by much misery and hatred, am i not as tormented by my own deeds, and the seeing that i brought all this upon myself, so much so that many give up hope of there being anything good in themself, and of course when this place is arrived at, THEN all good can begin to spring forth, and a full understanding of what even FIRST made the deception that one wished to kill is seen.... THIS CANNOT BE FAKED IN ANYTHING......... one jot or tittle of excuse or blame put anywhere excpet upon oneself is for true remorse to be had, or just a knowing of what one NEEDS to know tricked oneself...... if this is not seen, of course one will do more of the same of somthing of the same nature and intent, maybe not the same extreme, as the knowledge of the self pain make at times avoid the same act, but only the true PAIN caused to anohter SEEN AND FELT give a great enough will to accpet all ones own actions, and why is was said wisdom come not to the prideful.......... if i step up and say yes, i have killed, am guilty, please give me my due justice, even in the face of knowing i shall recieve much pain and maybe even death, am i not "freed" from my own emotional hell, and place of weeping and nashing of teeth, even at times, some of these are released from the penal system, seeming to now have even a greater grasp on love and freedom, and create more that is "good" than many that have never "wronged" in such ways...... if i walk each day, knowing and confessing to myself of all actions committed, all the good and the "bad", which the mind HATE to see or recognize itself as doing any bad, will i not soon come to be freed from all "bad" that create my own unhappiness, flying as a free bird into the heavens where there is no emotional hell, or misery, or pain, or suffering, or lack of wisdom....... is was also said from the same text the kingdom of heaven was within, not some place in the sky people go to, lol......... even though there are some that do believe from text, with good cause, that such is also as true, as if one is "freed" from the "body" then would not there be freedom of flight and travel to other dimensions, and all travel within the single physical realm or dimension..... Those are great insights David, but totally off tipic and does not answer my question in the slightest. |
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Eljay wrote: I'm not sure how you got that out of what I stated. In refering to Abra's hypothetical scenario (note: hypothetical) the charming young lady chose to reject God and Jesus. So why would she want to spend eternity with Him? After all - who is rejecting who in his story? She prefered to be with the God of Pantheism than with Jesus - so Jesus gave her what she desired. Eljay, you're not even making sense. You say that she preferred to be with teh God fo Pantheism so Jesus gave you what she desired. So are you saying that the woman is then with the "God" of Pantheism? Are you suggesting that Jesus should tell her mother at heaven's gate that her daughter is in the Pantheistic Heaven, just two heavens over to the right? What do you think her mother would do? Do you think her mother would hang around with Jesus for eternity? Probably not, she'd probably just thank Jesus for the information and run over to the Pantheistic Heaven to be with her daughter. After all, the pantheisic heaven has no requirements to get it, so she won't need to worry about getting in.  You twist the whole story around. You try to make it sound different from what the Christians are actually claiming. They aren't suggesting that if you don't believe in Jesus you'll just go off to some other La La Land. They are suggesting that if you don't accept Jesus you'll be sent to a hellish place of eternal damnation and be punished. So you're suggestion as a solution to the story doesn't fit in with what Christians are trying to claim. Abra - I'm not saying anything - it's your story. At the end of it - you asked a question, I answered it. Obviously, you were not happy with my answer because it did not fall in line with the supposed moral of your story. Now you are attempting to suggest I've said, or implied this and that? You're not making any sense. |
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I would say no to that one. I study numerous religions, and engage in discussions with those that hae faith in what they do in order to understand it better. But the conclusions you are making on Christianity in this thread is not coming from a study of it at all, but taken from the opinions of others that likely know less than you do about it. You would be better served to at least examine the text's of those who are claiming their intepretation of it is the right one. After all - what criteria do you have to assume any of the responses to this thread are the correct ones? Because they are the exact ones I got when I read the Bible and learned about Christianity... THE EXACT SAME ONES... The only difference is they still believe it, and I do not... |
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In the Bible it says that if you repent/get saved/ accept jesus as your saviour (however you want to put it) you will be allowed into heaven and say Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gayce on his death bed was saved/repented/ accepted Jesus as his saviour is he in heaven? and on the flip side would his victims if not given the chance to be saved/repent/accepted jesus as their saviour are they in hell? Hi Lilly. This is an interesting concept which I have struggled with for years. Mao Tse Tung said, and I quote "religion is the opiate of the masses." It is counterintuitve, to most, to subscribe to such an absolute ideology. Mao also saw the contridictions in modern day Catholicism. My take, at this point, is simple: As their is no concrete evidence to supprt or reject any such theory (heaven and hell, or what have you), your belief is based soley on faith, or what you choose to believe. You must start with the primary, or "a priori" postulate that God exists. Which is simply a belief in something, in this case God, with no criteria or evidence of such for the basis of this belief. That's the hard part. If one takes that leap of faith, however, then we can explain away the other contradictions as ones where logic cannot be applied, as the foundation of your belief, heretofore, is illogical in nature(a priori). Now then, I do believe one can come up with a logical answer for your question/questions. How can someone get into Heaven? In my opinion, it has to be a true belief. Hard to do with no evidence. But again, I believe if one is a true believer they will get into Heaven regardless of formally being "saved." As far as Dahmer and people like him, they can also get into Heaven if they truly have seen the error in their ways and truly believe. Same is true for the victims, as they also must be true believers. |
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Did you just use postulate correctly in a sentence?
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I had heard about a documentary film called "Jesus Camp" that was made a few years ago. I decided to rent it and well, my hope for the future was greatly diminished. It basically follows a group of Pentecostal Church leaders who host a Jesus Camp in Devil's Lake, ND (no, not kidding) each year. It is run by a vile youth pastor named Becky and supported by a number of parents who believe that guilt and tears equal repentance and faith. Some of these kids are younger than five---and they are being asked to think, to think about the bad things they've done and then to repent. 5 and 6 years old--some older, but some that young. While watching---I wanted to vomit. One particularly heartbreaking scene was when a little boy--maybe 5 or 6 was speaking in front of everyone--at camp. With a microphone and a stunned look he said that he wasn't really doing a great job as a Christian--that it was hard for him because with Jesus he could not really know him like he knew other people or see him. He was on to something--he was being a skeptic but he soon went back to the--"I need to do more, need to believe more" something to that extent and it freaking killed me. It was pure child abuse. He's 5 or 6 years old......LET him be a kid for a while--for the love of the god those people pray to--let him be a kid. But there is a point--there is a huge point in relation to MorningSong's statement about God revealing Himself. Abra nailed it---so if that is true, MorningSong then why the need to minister so much to kids? Why not let God reveal Himself without guilt ridden Bible Camps. If the argument is that the camps ARE God revealing Himself then I'd counter with a simple--NO--that is GUILT revealing itself--not God. This notion, that kids, kids that are that young should be bawling heads towards the heavens saying again and again, "No more, NO more, NO MORE......is heart-wrenching. Oh, and the "No More" that was in response to no more being fake, no more sin, no more insincerity." Watch the film. It was not put on by a group of atheists. In fact it was made by two women who gave 96% of the film's time to the Christian side and 4% to the opposing view. Seriously. -Drew How vile!! That sort of indoctrination should be outlawed. They are worse than the most heinous madmen ever. How anyone can allow this child abuse to continue is beyond me! I know - they should be strapping bombs on them and sending them into cafe's in Jerusalem. |
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Edited by
muso948
on
Mon 09/01/08 01:43 PM
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Did you just use postulate correctly in a sentence? Main Entry: 1pos·tu·late Pronunciation: \ˈpäs-chə-ˌlāt\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): pos·tu·lat·ed; pos·tu·lat·ing Etymology: Latin postulatus, past participle of postulare; akin to Latin poscere to ask, Old High German forscōn to search, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks — more at pray Date: 1593 1: demand, claim 2 a: to assume or claim as true, existent, or necessary : depend upon or start from the postulate of b: to assume as a postulate or axiom (as in logic or mathematics) I believe so. Is that all you have to say about my thoughts? |
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Your thoughts are fine... it's the fact that you used that word correctly and effortlessly in a sentence that made me pay attention....
It seems to me that even the Christians who study the Bible for their own sake have concluded the same thing I have when I read it simply for the sake of knowing what it says.... The same concept was formed with both Christian and non.... If you murder and repent you go to heaven, if you are murdered and don't have that chance you go to hell... and Humanitarians such as Buddha, The Dali Lahmas and Ghandi are all playing cards in hell talking about how much bull**** it is that Dahmer is in heaven and they are in the firey pits of hell... |
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Why people ask these questions of Christians or Fundamentalist is beyond me. They DO NOT HAVE ANY ANSWERS. They think they do, but they do not. They are not an authority for God or the Creator. They have no answers. They follow false doctrine, and they teach false doctrine. They are the blind brainwashed trying to lead others into blindness and delusions. Today there is a group of Jehovah's witnesses in our town going from door to door asking people what they think and feel about Armageddon, the wars, the end of the world and other such things. They first prey on your fears then they offer their solution ... God. Under their religion and their rules and their control of course. I printed a sign and hung it on my parents front door. It said: NO SOLICITATION ~Religions and otherwise. I love the Christians but I hate their doctrines. JB of course - what am i thinking JB - how stupid of me - - from now on i'll just be >aloof< that is if someone will tell me what a --->loof<--- is? HMMM? I'll just wait till others post questions and then like you and abra, i'll tear them a new a-hole for being so stupid as to ask someone who has no answers to reply to the questions being posed - i was blind but now i see - Well dear Tribo let me rephrase my point. If a person does not believe in Christianity, why would they ask questions of Christians? There are a few reasons. 1.) In an attempt to dismantle their beliefs in hopes they will begin to see things the way you do.. or... 2.)because you do want to believe in Christianity and are sincerely looking for answers so you can move forward into Christian doctrine and get saved by Jesus Christ. 3.) To silence them from making unbelievable claims. 4.) In an effort to get them to rethink their beliefs and save them from their own delusions. Is there any other reason you might want to ask or even demand answers from Christians? You can continue if you want, I don't really mind, I just think it is an exercise in futility.  If you don't like Christianity, you could spend your energy creating a new and improved religion or belief system. |
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Your thoughts are fine... it's the fact that you used that word correctly and effortlessly in a sentence that made me pay attention.... It seems to me that even the Christians who study the Bible for their own sake have concluded the same thing I have when I read it simply for the sake of knowing what it says.... The same concept was formed with both Christian and non.... If you murder and repent you go to heaven, if you are murdered and don't have that chance you go to hell... and Humanitarians such as Buddha, The Dali Lahmas and Ghandi are all playing cards in hell talking about how much bull**** it is that Dahmer is in heaven and they are in the firey pits of hell... Lilly, I've never read the entire Bible and don't know what it may indicate, or what one can deduce from it pertaining to this. I do know this much: Given what we understand about God (all knowing, all seeing, omnipototent), it would logically follow that He has the ability and, more important, the obligation to take into Heaven those who deserve to be there, irrespective of their personal situation at the time of their death. We believe in a God for whom we do the right thing and should expect nothing less in return. |
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if i kill a man, do i not go to a place of emotional hell, of weeping and nashing of teeth of misery, as i flee arrest, so much so that some give themselves up, or, as i sit in prison, seperated from all love, and all that i once had, surrounded by much misery and hatred, am i not as tormented by my own deeds, and the seeing that i brought all this upon myself, so much so that many give up hope of there being anything good in themself, and of course when this place is arrived at, THEN all good can begin to spring forth, and a full understanding of what even FIRST made the deception that one wished to kill is seen.... THIS CANNOT BE FAKED IN ANYTHING......... one jot or tittle of excuse or blame put anywhere excpet upon oneself is for true remorse to be had, or just a knowing of what one NEEDS to know tricked oneself...... if this is not seen, of course one will do more of the same of somthing of the same nature and intent, maybe not the same extreme, as the knowledge of the self pain make at times avoid the same act, but only the true PAIN caused to anohter SEEN AND FELT give a great enough will to accpet all ones own actions, and why is was said wisdom come not to the prideful.......... if i step up and say yes, i have killed, am guilty, please give me my due justice, even in the face of knowing i shall recieve much pain and maybe even death, am i not "freed" from my own emotional hell, and place of weeping and nashing of teeth, even at times, some of these are released from the penal system, seeming to now have even a greater grasp on love and freedom, and create more that is "good" than many that have never "wronged" in such ways...... if i walk each day, knowing and confessing to myself of all actions committed, all the good and the "bad", which the mind HATE to see or recognize itself as doing any bad, will i not soon come to be freed from all "bad" that create my own unhappiness, flying as a free bird into the heavens where there is no emotional hell, or misery, or pain, or suffering, or lack of wisdom....... is was also said from the same text the kingdom of heaven was within, not some place in the sky people go to, lol......... even though there are some that do believe from text, with good cause, that such is also as true, as if one is "freed" from the "body" then would not there be freedom of flight and travel to other dimensions, and all travel within the single physical realm or dimension..... Those are great insights David, but totally off tipic and does not answer my question in the slightest. how can this be true unless the answer one seek to hear is as already known, and all else heard is based upon "matching this answer" one already has, lol........ matching each word heard to the ones most wished to be heard or thought as true is hearing with only one ear.......... so why not just say, "i believe i know the answer, and i seek to know if anybody else is as smart as i, and seek to add to myself only confirmation of what i already think i know, lol............ |
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if i kill a man, do i not go to a place of emotional hell, of weeping and nashing of teeth of misery, as i flee arrest, so much so that some give themselves up, or, as i sit in prison, seperated from all love, and all that i once had, surrounded by much misery and hatred, am i not as tormented by my own deeds, and the seeing that i brought all this upon myself, so much so that many give up hope of there being anything good in themself, and of course when this place is arrived at, THEN all good can begin to spring forth, and a full understanding of what even FIRST made the deception that one wished to kill is seen.... THIS CANNOT BE FAKED IN ANYTHING......... one jot or tittle of excuse or blame put anywhere excpet upon oneself is for true remorse to be had, or just a knowing of what one NEEDS to know tricked oneself...... if this is not seen, of course one will do more of the same of somthing of the same nature and intent, maybe not the same extreme, as the knowledge of the self pain make at times avoid the same act, but only the true PAIN caused to anohter SEEN AND FELT give a great enough will to accpet all ones own actions, and why is was said wisdom come not to the prideful.......... if i step up and say yes, i have killed, am guilty, please give me my due justice, even in the face of knowing i shall recieve much pain and maybe even death, am i not "freed" from my own emotional hell, and place of weeping and nashing of teeth, even at times, some of these are released from the penal system, seeming to now have even a greater grasp on love and freedom, and create more that is "good" than many that have never "wronged" in such ways...... if i walk each day, knowing and confessing to myself of all actions committed, all the good and the "bad", which the mind HATE to see or recognize itself as doing any bad, will i not soon come to be freed from all "bad" that create my own unhappiness, flying as a free bird into the heavens where there is no emotional hell, or misery, or pain, or suffering, or lack of wisdom....... is was also said from the same text the kingdom of heaven was within, not some place in the sky people go to, lol......... even though there are some that do believe from text, with good cause, that such is also as true, as if one is "freed" from the "body" then would not there be freedom of flight and travel to other dimensions, and all travel within the single physical realm or dimension..... Those are great insights David, but totally off tipic and does not answer my question in the slightest. how can this be true unless the answer one seek to hear is as already known, and all else heard is based upon "matching this answer" one already has, lol........ matching each word heard to the ones most wished to be heard or thought as true is hearing with only one ear.......... so why not just say, "i believe i know the answer, and i seek to know if anybody else is as smart as i, and seek to add to myself only confirmation of what i already think i know, lol............ I can speak of the rise and fall of the economic state and it does not answer the question of one's placement after death.... Do you see how that is off topic? You were speaking about in their own mind, not actually after death...that was the question thank you.... |
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