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| Topic: I'm just asking for clarification.... | |
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But you'll both still go to hell is you don't accept Jesus as your saviour... Just saying...  You are putting the cart before the horse. The correct interpretation of what the truth of this statement is - If you do not put your faith in Jesus, you will not spend eternity in heaven with Him. This is done by those who make this decision for themselves - not through any choice of Jesus. He's already done what He needed to do for man to spend eternity with Him. If they chose not to - they are ree to make that choice. The alternative to spending eternity without Jesus leaves those who make that decision left with their own idea of what awaits them, (which in biblical terms is "hell") and the reliance on what evidentuary fact supports their theory. It was a joke Ejay a joke.... it's called a sense of humor they're nice you should get one. What makes you think I was unaware it was a joke? Think this stuff is funny do you? It's hilarious..... |
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But you'll both still go to hell is you don't accept Jesus as your saviour... Just saying... You are putting the cart before the horse. The correct interpretation of what the truth of this statement is - If you do not put your faith in Jesus, you will not spend eternity in heaven with Him. This is done by those who make this decision for themselves - not through any choice of Jesus. He's already done what He needed to do for man to spend eternity with Him. If they chose not to - they are ree to make that choice. The alternative to spending eternity without Jesus leaves those who make that decision left with their own idea of what awaits them, (which in biblical terms is "hell") and the reliance on what evidentuary fact supports their theory. It was a joke Ejay a joke.... it's called a sense of humor they're nice you should get one. What makes you think I was unaware it was a joke? Think this stuff is funny do you? I think its a joke. But funny? No, you are right, its not funny. Its sad. |
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Edited by
Eljay
on
Wed 09/03/08 10:07 PM
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But you'll both still go to hell is you don't accept Jesus as your saviour... Just saying... You are putting the cart before the horse. The correct interpretation of what the truth of this statement is - If you do not put your faith in Jesus, you will not spend eternity in heaven with Him. This is done by those who make this decision for themselves - not through any choice of Jesus. He's already done what He needed to do for man to spend eternity with Him. If they chose not to - they are free to make that choice. The alternative to spending eternity without Jesus leaves those who make that decision left with their own idea of what awaits them, (which in biblical terms is "hell") and the reliance on what evidentuary fact supports their theory. these same repeated doctrines that have been believed since the beginning of time, have proven to serve no purpose but to divide and conquer, to create divide in anyone kingdom... do you propose these are of some secret intelligence that has not been heard many times before.... why do you speak of these things as if they are great truths, as if they have not been seen and duly recognized time and again since the beginning....... these were shouted forth by scribes and pharisees from many days past, and these truths were called as whitwashed houses full of dead mans bones, and create only dead mans bones within a body, for they forsake even the simplest essence of what was taught by jesus...... why do you say you follow him, when he is not recognized as being believed in any of your words............... these are words from a perception of self holy, and others as less holy...... is this thought to not be seen by any that do not live in fear...... does not this perception shine thru in all words, show that your heart believe your "on track" in all believed, showing a belief all others need to come onto your track to be as worthy or knowing any truth at all...... if it said to put ones "faith" in "jesus", then certainally it did not mean in the man, but what the "man" said..... john lennon sang "listen to what the man says", but to you he was not a follower, indeed, no one is a follower except those the subscribe only to "precisely" what you believe..... did jesus not say "love thy neighbbor as thyself"... to believe and put faith in this ONE SENTENCE would give more knowing of truth and love in the heart than all the words of doctine called as truth, as to garner the mind, to bring it into a matching vision with just this one sentence, make the mind see "my neighbbor knows JUST AS MUCH AS MYSELF, AND HAS WISDOM ALSO, AND IS AS EQUAL TO MYSELF.......what that believes as such tell another they are on the "right track", and instruct as saying all less than one believe is "off track", lol....... all your words belie the feeling and belief of the heart, that you are BETTER and WISER than all less equal and less knowing ones, and all others are as less, that do not believe the same, and great effort is put forth to make all others confrom to this same poison apple that tastes so good to the mind, but cause death in the heart..... if there is any whole truth, then it must see thru the same eyes of the one that is believed to have inspired all words of text, and these eyes see all as eqaul, or they see not the whole picture, as text itself describe what the sight be that "god" has, and does not all one believe create the perception or sight looked thru........ so how can one believe they have attianed all merit, and wothiness, and truth, when this sight is not yet had..... indeed, this sight was as a gift, for any that seek not to have for oneself, but then all that is spoken here comes from the perception of oneself as better, more worthy, and how can such as this recieve any gift, as it demand itself in it's heart and in all words as worthy of all gifts, and what wise father would give a gift such to any child with this sight, as such perception would like to see all others lower than oneself, and even come to believe all others will be killed by god, and themself spared, and these as bastard children of the whole truth defame love and unity, and even despise it, as they do not wish to be as equal to what they percieve to be as trash and scum of the earth........ did it not say "love thy enemies"..... is not any natural enemy one that "believes" different, as to do different deeds show only by manifestation what is believed, and these if they are "loved as self" could never be seen as LESS or NOT WORTHY, or as not as "clean" as oneself......... even the simplest essence of what jesus said is not seen in any of the self professions of following jesus and "knowing the track".... has not this same inspiration of self good faith been preached from every podium since the days of jesus and before, a perception that look out the heart at all as LESS, with all pride and arrogance in the heart believing they are as sons, never seeing that jesus as a son, NEVER made himself as better, not even holy religious self professed teachers of "holiness", excaped be called as satan, lol....... did not these call themself as WISE with every repeating of carefully selected text, constructed from a desire to find oneself as holy and good and most worthy, and such teachings always saying "these are the only true interpretations, hear them or you are damned, and this be the way to the kingdom of heaven, lol....... if it has not the same sight as "god", the same father text claimed to be as the father of jesus, that "seen" all MAN as equal, then it is not of the same god of jesus's father, so by every text proclamation, such teachings shall be destroyed.... is not this the very esence of believing in the words of jesus, as to love thy neighbor as thyself, and love also thy enemy, could NEVER THINK OF ITSELF AS BETTER or MORE WORTHY, lol........ each thing spoken seeks to promote fear of the father as truth, and tries to convince many they are not of the father, and more truth is easily seen by any of these deemed to be in death and hell bound, and such as these are the least of these, that do not consider any as less, but half-truth of the mind convinces one that they are better, and such as believe such things would have to be as last, as these teaching make "itself" as first, and so who that declare to believe in text does not believe it will come to be as spoken...... shall these be divided in oneself, from all presence and knowing of "god" that is love..... how can it not be, as "god" is claimed to be as DICTATOR, that has not any more wisdom or love than all professed dictators of the law that have lived in history, and such as these having the same spirit, have killed millions of peoples, but indeed it was spoken of god of text, "thou shalt not murder", so if there is a god, and he is perfect, and his words are as prophecy, and must come true, then indeed they will for all mankind, and would the same god that speak not also keep the same prophecy that he speaks for himself, lol....... these teaching incite riotry, all social unrest, bigotry, strife, hatred, malice, contention, and do not come from the lips of jesus, and all teachers of such will be removed from their podioms of self grandness, by the very essence of the power of the words they themelf speak, but hear not nor follow, and these words heaped back upon ones own head, smash and grind to powder, and shatter all illsuions of self grandess, and the days have come that such words as these that seek to enslave will enslave the speakers, and these will not stand long before brought to the ground in humiltity, and even the heart goes to work to destroy such things with great power and swiftness, the heart of TRUTH that lie within the center of EACH thing that have breath of life, and even more as the days quickly approach that all shall live in peace, here, in this same place we call earth........ these are teachings of the poison apple of the tree of the mind, the tree deemed to be as a mockery, but this belief indeed shall from this day forward be made known, with all power and proof, and the very ones deemed by arrogant hearts as ignorant losers, shall have power over all the self professed children, these thinking many have no value or measure in the kingdom.... what father are such divisive teachings from? how can it be from the same father that all that declare they are followers of text heard, when they are words diometrically opposed to any such words as spoken by even jesus himself........ if it is of the tree of divide, it shall fall with a crumble to the ground, and any in it's house will fall with it..... what good reason does any have to rest at such a stop, that give no peace anyways, but only a urge of the heart to always prove itself, as the doubt show itself in every word, and give no peace..... to not evacutate the house of divide that see all others as less equal, puts oneself squarly in the furnace that incinerate such beliefs, and is as hotter than fire from heaven, that has no beginning or no end, and burn all such beliefs to stuble in an instant........ are not these same teaching reeking of the same look, smell, taste, feel, and hearing as the same preached from the churches and synagogs in jesus day, the same as what was spoken from "self-professed holy ones" that created all divide, and even the same beliefs that created hands that nailed "jesus" to the cross...... the self worthy pride of thinking that one has the "right track" is from the pit that lead to a pit, and containes no knowing of "perfect love of the father", the one source of all life, that SEES and KNOWS HOW all are as equal......... Here again - I am responding after reading one paragraph. It's all i need to make my point. I did not write the book. It's what it says. It is the central theme of the book - understood by anyone who has read it since it was put on parchment. Believing that the concepts of it are true or false does not change what is written. The words are there - they remain. Interpretation - whether on a literal, metephorical, or linear interpretation do not change the words, just how one might understand them. My paragraph was a synopsis of what the book says - nothing more than that. In that - it is the "great truth" of >what< is written in the book - for that won't change, as opposed to the fact that the book >is truth<, which is what you appear to be adressing. That opinion is a subjective one, and is based on faith - or lack of it - in the intention of why the book was written. |
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The whole idea of Hell is an oxymoron in the first place. Hell is supposed to be separation from God. But that very idea implies that there is some place other than God's presence where a person could exist. That would mean that there is something other than God! The mythology just wasn't very well thought out before it was published.  Nothing related to christianity was well thought out. god created this place hell. god created satan satan gives god a hard time so why doesnt god smite the living bee-jeeezus out of satan? So, what - He's not meeting your timely expectations is he? God apparently is unaware of how busy a guy you are. That he's just not working quick enough to satisfy you. Why don't you write a letter to the Vatican - see if they'll take care of that for you. |
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Edited by
Belushi
on
Wed 09/03/08 10:20 PM
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The whole idea of Hell is an oxymoron in the first place. Hell is supposed to be separation from God. But that very idea implies that there is some place other than God's presence where a person could exist. That would mean that there is something other than God! The mythology just wasn't very well thought out before it was published. Nothing related to christianity was well thought out. god created this place hell. god created satan satan gives god a hard time so why doesnt god smite the living bee-jeeezus out of satan? So, what - He's not meeting your timely expectations is he? God apparently is unaware of how busy a guy you are. That he's just not working quick enough to satisfy you. Why don't you write a letter to the Vatican - see if they'll take care of that for you. I never had an issue with either of god or satan, they are as real to me as the StayPuff guy! I never set a time scale, but you would think that with all the famine, murders deaths and other stuff going on, that god would have called time and wiped us all out to start again. He is that kind of "loving" god after all. The Vatican cant help because they are busy proving that extra terrestrial life is actually catholic!!! Plus, Jesus is also late. I cant abide lateness! 10 minutes, hmmm ok, an hour, nahh, now you are wasting my time - 8 f'kn years?????? If god is so almighty, you would think he would be able to get his lazy arsed son out of bed for an appointment he made 2000 years ago. |
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It seems there is a difference between free will and just demanding that someone go along with what you expect of them and if not, face the consequences. In this case, eternal damnation and a lot of fire and wrath. Who operates like that exactly? Generally we describe people that behave in such a manner as "bullies". They use the threat of reprisal in order that you should give up your lunch money to them. In the case of Christianity, it seems you are turning over yourself in order to avoid god's disapproval. Hmmm... I'm beginning to wonder if you have a grasp of Christianity, and of the God of scripture. This idea that God needs anything from us is just not getting the concept. The idea of salvation is the freedom from the self-destructive behaviors we, as humans - do not seem capable of bringing under our control. A great many of these self-destructive behaviors bring harm, and often death to others. The bible says "Do not murder". Why would you think it says that? Because God wants to "Lord it" over us by giving us a rule we may or may not want to keep? What exactly is it you think the bible "suggests" we not do that is inhibiting your freedom to do? It says "Do not lie". Has that stopped anyone from lying? Hardly. Are there consequences to lying? Very often so - though perhaps not immediate. Since I don't know of anyone who would invest themselves into someone who choses to lie with intention or malice, it is expected that God should? Illogical. Yet - we all have lied, at one tie or another. Should God be forced to accept anyone who shows a continual propensity towards this type of behavior? Yet - once someone realizes they have this propensity - whether they truely intend it or not, and comes to a self realization about it - wishing not to continue in this manner - forgiveness awaits them. And not without rightiousness - because God does not lie. If you believe that God can lie - you have created a God that does not exist - for that God defies it's own definition. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Thu 09/04/08 03:24 AM
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Okay then. Explain WHY the Muslim (this is a hypothetical) victim in this case would end up being condemned to hell and the murderer would go to heaven based solely on the fact that he "found jesus" in prison or some time before passing. And before you go too far in that direction, we all know how serious the devoutly religious can take the "thou shalt not kill" commandment....Should I start bringing up some talking points in history?
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Eljay......
your qutoe that speak back the essence of all the words i wrote.... "My paragraph was a synopsis of what the book says"...... it is your complete and honest opinion with all sincerity of all knowing that one has at any second..... did and does not this change always as perception and wisdom grow......... no problem, you speak ONE synopsis of ONE man, ONE mind, ONE being..... if this be declared to be the ONLY WAY, then how is not divide immediatley created, as WHO will be the one to stand and say to ALL OTHERS, FOLLOW ME, MY INTERPRETATION ALONE IS THE WHOLE TRUTH, LOL...... is not this alone what begin the tree of divide of relgion, in all beliefs and interpretations, lol..... it truly is the parodox of how one mind in it's first state, actually believes itself wiser than all others, as this is the only way one can hold to any interpretation as the one and only interpretation, holding to as a single truth, as the whole truth has been scattered as seeds, into all mens hearts that live and breath, and these are collected as pearls of great wisdom from each and all one of the other..... what process can make the world your "god" spoke of come to pass...... is it proposed that all as children, would not have to come to a time to be able to create as the parent or father wish, proposing the father as wisdom is supposed to do all for the child, as if it is handicapped and never capable........ who that is one with belief speak from outside the belief, as if peering into what is believed, and describing all as seperate of oneself, instead of speaking out thru all beliefs, speaking of absolutes of principles that guide and never change....... mankind is to create peace themself, as all no longer children, all coming to aquire the wisdom to see how, to solve all problems as any good student who has been taught well, by the very master you claim to believe, but say only teach some, not seeing infinite wisdom hold the power over all, to teach as an expert, as what expert teacher is not able to teach any that somne say are not teachable, all learning coming to be seen from generations of comparisons of data looked into, seeing divide scattered abroad all along the way, making clear the whole way, and what create divide even as it is falling thru the air into the soil of the mind, snatching up the poison and devoring it with wisdom, before it ever has chance to take root............ what if all peer thru this only oneself the wisest perception.... what can be created but divide, lol....... |
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There's another twist to the Jeffrey Dahmer business that the Christians aren't bringing up-- that if Dahmer was absolved of his heinous crimes and allowed into heaven, then he was indeed an innocent who was murdered by the State. Does this mean his executioner, indeed all the People who didn't 'repent' of his murder are going to Hell, too?
See, I think this whole thing is about 'street cred' for Christianity. A way of saying 'if He can save even an evil being like Jeffrey Dahmer, think of what He can do for you!" It's just another way to dodge the Problem of Evil argument. -Kerry O. |
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The Bible says God is Love. If you know love then you know God, vice versa. That encompasses ALL religions.
The last words Jesus spoke on the cross was "It is finished". DONE!! There's nothing anyone can do to top that. If I'm to believe that Jesus died for my sins and in his last breath, he said "It is finished". Then in believing that, I don't have to worry anymore, it's been taken care of for me. People can take religion and use it to break another's spirit, to scare, to manipulate, to control. Sometimes it seems people make GOD (LOVE) smaller then evil and not able to overcome. In some of the debating, I'd then ask some is there a different level of sin? Are some sins forgiven and some not? The Bible also says God is our Heavenly Father. Most of us are parents, is there anything your child would do that you'd send him/her to an eternal burning pit? |
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The Bible says God is Love. If you know love then you know God, vice versa. That encompasses ALL religions. The last words Jesus spoke on the cross was "It is finished". DONE!! There's nothing anyone can do to top that. If I'm to believe that Jesus died for my sins and in his last breath, he said "It is finished". Then in believing that, I don't have to worry anymore, it's been taken care of for me. People can take religion and use it to break another's spirit, to scare, to manipulate, to control. Sometimes it seems people make GOD (LOVE) smaller then evil and not able to overcome. In some of the debating, I'd then ask some is there a different level of sin? Are some sins forgiven and some not? The Bible also says God is our Heavenly Father. Most of us are parents, is there anything your child would do that you'd send him/her to an eternal burning pit? this is the best answer I've heard in my life, I could be on board with this....  
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lily...
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Okay then. Explain WHY the Muslim (this is a hypothetical) victim in this case would end up being condemned to hell and the murderer would go to heaven based solely on the fact that he "found jesus" in prison or some time before passing. And before you go too far in that direction, we all know how serious the devoutly religious can take the "thou shalt not kill" commandment....Should I start bringing up some talking points in history? Because the Muslim rejected Jesus, and the Murderer accepted him. |
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Eljay...... your qutoe that speak back the essence of all the words i wrote.... "My paragraph was a synopsis of what the book says"...... it is your complete and honest opinion with all sincerity of all knowing that one has at any second..... did and does not this change always as perception and wisdom grow......... no problem, you speak ONE synopsis of ONE man, ONE mind, ONE being..... if this be declared to be the ONLY WAY, then how is not divide immediatley created, as WHO will be the one to stand and say to ALL OTHERS, FOLLOW ME, MY INTERPRETATION ALONE IS THE WHOLE TRUTH, LOL...... is not this alone what begin the tree of divide of relgion, in all beliefs and interpretations, lol..... it truly is the parodox of how one mind in it's first state, actually believes itself wiser than all others, as this is the only way one can hold to any interpretation as the one and only interpretation, holding to as a single truth, as the whole truth has been scattered as seeds, into all mens hearts that live and breath, and these are collected as pearls of great wisdom from each and all one of the other..... what process can make the world your "god" spoke of come to pass...... is it proposed that all as children, would not have to come to a time to be able to create as the parent or father wish, proposing the father as wisdom is supposed to do all for the child, as if it is handicapped and never capable........ who that is one with belief speak from outside the belief, as if peering into what is believed, and describing all as seperate of oneself, instead of speaking out thru all beliefs, speaking of absolutes of principles that guide and never change....... mankind is to create peace themself, as all no longer children, all coming to aquire the wisdom to see how, to solve all problems as any good student who has been taught well, by the very master you claim to believe, but say only teach some, not seeing infinite wisdom hold the power over all, to teach as an expert, as what expert teacher is not able to teach any that somne say are not teachable, all learning coming to be seen from generations of comparisons of data looked into, seeing divide scattered abroad all along the way, making clear the whole way, and what create divide even as it is falling thru the air into the soil of the mind, snatching up the poison and devoring it with wisdom, before it ever has chance to take root............ what if all peer thru this only oneself the wisest perception.... what can be created but divide, lol....... It doesn't matter what the interpretation is - but to the one interpreting. If anyone is doing any following - thy are not interpreting for themselves. This is different than >agreeing< though. There are many here whom i am in agreement with. Wouldee, Britty, Spider, Feral, Mounrning Song, etc, etc. I don't "follow" any of them. Nor do any of them "follow" me. I think that I can declare with a modicum of certainty than not one of them walked dowwn the path of faith and understanding that I did. I would go vas far as to guarentee it. So what is this presumption of following? A lack of wisdom on your part - eH? |
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There's another twist to the Jeffrey Dahmer business that the Christians aren't bringing up-- that if Dahmer was absolved of his heinous crimes and allowed into heaven, then he was indeed an innocent who was murdered by the State. Does this mean his executioner, indeed all the People who didn't 'repent' of his murder are going to Hell, too? See, I think this whole thing is about 'street cred' for Christianity. A way of saying 'if He can save even an evil being like Jeffrey Dahmer, think of what He can do for you!" It's just another way to dodge the Problem of Evil argument. -Kerry O. Not at all. As it is written "God is not mocked - as ye reap, so shall ye sow." I don't doubt that Jefferey Dahmer didn't suffer a brutal death at the hands of evil men. What goes around comes around. |
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And if the victim was a muslim then yes as difficult as that is to comprehend she will go to hell....For God says do not worship any other Gods.....PERIOD not up for debate. And because this is not reasonable to you........just doesn't not make it so...... So God is an egotist just as I stated before then... You must worship me and only me then I will give you rewards at the end of your journey... Sounds like a cult leader to me, not so much of a "spiritual" journey more of the ravings of a mad man... Can we say MoonBop cult? First off lily no God is not an egotist....He is God.....God doesn't ask much from us....The rewards are all through our lives not just the end. Now of course you to can believe as you wish.....that is why God gave you free will....Just remember that you will later in life have to pay the consequences of your free will. And again just because you think as you do....just does not change the fact or the rules for God....He is who He is....He expects us to live a certain way....and don't and pay the price....pretty darn simple. Well that seems like good parenting... I say to my daughter "You have to be home by 10" she says "I'll be home by 12:30" I say "Well do what you want you have free will" then she comes home at 12:30 and I say nothing until 3 years later I say "Oh by the way remember 3 years ago when I told you to be home at 10 and you didn't come in until 12:30 well you are grounded for a month because I didn't enforce my law then, but I will do it now" That's great... I wanna be raised by that guy. Uh...who's the parent here? Or do you think teaching a little self control & self respect for yourself & the benefit of society is wrong? Maybe there's something wrong with THAT picture...yu think? |
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I'd just like to know what makes the Bible "right"...
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sun 09/07/08 03:46 AM
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Okay then. Explain WHY the Muslim (this is a hypothetical) victim in this case would end up being condemned to hell and the murderer would go to heaven based solely on the fact that he "found jesus" in prison or some time before passing. And before you go too far in that direction, we all know how serious the devoutly religious can take the "thou shalt not kill" commandment....Should I start bringing up some talking points in history? Because the Muslim rejected Jesus, and the Murderer accepted him. Well thats a load of crap then, plain and simple. Its exclusionary, divisive, manipulative and nothing I would want to be involved with. But the important thing to keep in mind is that just because you may feel I am bound for hell as a "non-believer" postmortem, doesn't make it automatically so. I on the other hand, am not the type of person that would presume to project my ugly thoughts and feelings of condemnation and eternal purgatory upon you. |
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There's another twist to the Jeffrey Dahmer business that the Christians aren't bringing up-- that if Dahmer was absolved of his heinous crimes and allowed into heaven, then he was indeed an innocent who was murdered by the State. Does this mean his executioner, indeed all the People who didn't 'repent' of his murder are going to Hell, too? See, I think this whole thing is about 'street cred' for Christianity. A way of saying 'if He can save even an evil being like Jeffrey Dahmer, think of what He can do for you!" It's just another way to dodge the Problem of Evil argument. -Kerry O. Not at all. As it is written "God is not mocked - as ye reap, so shall ye sow." I don't doubt that Jefferey Dahmer didn't suffer a brutal death at the hands of evil men. What goes around comes around. And Dahmer sowed death and dismemberment and reaped heaven? And a position of esteem for being a martyr for Conversion? You're a believer in in predestination yourself. How do you tolerate the dissonance of morality of an (alleged) truly benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being, knowing full well the consequences of allowing such to be visited upon the earth, further aid and abet such misery by then absolving those who commit it just for falling down on bent knee and professing Faith? The real mockery here is of Justice. As you said in your answer over last weekend, embryoes spontaneously aborted by Nature to to heaven automatically? The embryonic Dahmer could have been given a free pass into heaven had Nature spontaneously aborted him. If true, why not just solve the problem that way? No one would have been the wiser and some other souls would not have been made to suffer the torment of murder and cannibalism. -Kerry O. |
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IMHO Fear,
The Bible has been translated many times. The Bible was written by men, even if it was thru God's divine intervention, anything that has the element of human in it, there will be an error, you can bet on it. I don't believe the Bible to be stone cold right or hell hot wrong. It is a guide! It comes down to what one believes. If someone truly believes something then for that person it is THEIR truth..but theirs only. I think some people need something to validate their existance. Some people need to belong to something even if it's to follow a mass of people to jump off a cliff. Religion will always be debated because there is NO tangible proof but God accepts those who doubt (doubting Thomas). |
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