thnx goddess !@#$%^&*()_+{}":><?<-=[];',/.`........????????????>>>>><<<<<

Me, impartial?? Tribo? -

i reffer to my post yesterday, which today i went against already hahaha - mr. impartial - hahaha


enough!!

ok?

here's my take on it for what it is worth.

christians vs non christians = no winner

never will be!!


however -

Abra, Jb, Belushi, V, myself, DavidB, and the rest = 100% correct!!! ""for themselves"" (each individually) as to what they choose to believe and hold as truths!!!


Ferralpussee, Wouldee, Spider, Eljay, MS, and the rest = 100% Correct!!! for their beliefs in what they choose to believe and hold as truths for them, collectively or individualy!!!


C'mon guys, enough's enough doncha think

no one's winning here - everyone's loosing as to their stance against one another.

Let deb and the rest minister how they want and we will do as we have been doing - sharing our beliefs with each other about spiritual matters.

what do you say huh?

truce? Mis-trial? not worth it?

I'm in total agreement Tribo.

I was just trying to be consistent with the spirit of the OP of the thread.

There are no proofs. All that exists are beliefs.

And it truly is futile to argue beliefs.

May everyone love their beliefs.

Everyone have a great day.

I'm not interested in arguing beliefs anymore.

Let the witch hunters do their hunting.

And to the witches I say, "Blessed be!"

Thank God for civil rights and for the modern laws of civilized man that prevent the ancient laws of superstitious dogmas from being unjustly carried out against innocent souls.

I guess I better clear the air about this. It’s been asked a couple times by private if I’m a Pagan or into Witchcraft or any of it. No. I’m not. I have simply read a book or two and I was fortunate enough to visit a coven. I just wanted to see first hand what it was all about. Its quite innocuous and non threatening. Nothing to be worried about. But no, I’m not a practitioner myself. I can’t tell you it’s an easy spirituality to investigate either as it tends to be shy and untrusting of people for obvious reasons. It often chooses to remain underground but sometimes they will appear more openly at various festivals.

darn it - i always wanted a pagan witch for a friend - you dissappoint me K,

Sorry Tribo. If I was a practicing Pagan I might be less inclined to get involved in debate with Christians also. There have been problems with that kind of thing. So, all I can represent is someone that has done a little (emphasis on little) legwork so I feel I can present what I have learned but that’s about the extent of it.

Thats all right K, love you just the way you are. Hmmm??? isn't that a billy joel song???

yeah, I had to look it up but Billy Joel did that song originally. I think a lot of people have covered it though since then.

I am going on with another contradiction in the bible. If anyone wants to further debate any past inconsistencies, then that can be done but just make it clear which one so it doesn’t become too terribly confusing or use the quote feature. So here is another one:

First, God seems very happy with his creation.

Genesis 1:31 (King James Version)

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Then, he's not happy with his creation and man in particular.

Genesis 6:5-6 (King James Version)

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

So which is it?

Well, it can be both. We are talking about a movement forward in time. For example

A few years back I made a dessert for a family dinner. Went through all of the mixing prepping and baking to pull a finished product out of the oven. At the time I thought "wow this is good" because it looked like I had done it up right. Of course when I took the first bite I realized I had forgotten to add all of the ingredients (I forgot the brown sugar) and realized my creation was not as good as I had first thought.

God had the misfortune of going through this. The assumption that the church has of God is that he is a perfect, omnipresent, omnipitant (sp?) being. I don't share this assumption for two reasons. I don't think God ever said as much, and he said he made man in his image. So we are just like him? Doesn't it stand to reason he is just like us? Lazy, cuts corners, makes mistakes, possibly doesn't think things through. These are all characteristics of someone who is nearing the end of a big project. Just saying.

I don't think God is really omnipitant. I think he's just been around long enough that it appears as if he knows everything. So, mistakes were made. They happen all the time, he was disappointed in his children's choices. Every parent is sooner or later. I don't see it as a contradiction, I see it as a logical response to bad kids.

Well I would need to agree with you that he probably isn’t omnipotent. Neither god nor whoever was writing this stuff. Because for one, the very notion that god should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.

Let's take this next contradiction and nip it in the bud

Genesis 1

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light
with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.....





God was very happy with his creation.


Now let's take the next step which is man's fall.....Now when God made man he did create us with free will....(because he wanted it to be our choice whether we came to him or didn't come to him) Remember the fall started with Adam and Eve and them not listening to God....Now if God made man in his image and he was happy now read the below and let's take it from there.


1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

9 This is the account of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress [c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [d] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [e] the ark to within 18 inches [f] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

Nephilim's were Giants and when man was not listening to God and had sex with the Giants and just were out of control.


Gen 6:11 Mankind was out of control...they were very disobedient to God. Now God could of just let them run amok and that was that. But this is God......He created them and they were not obeying his commands. It might sound really mean but to God could take no more. Now he gave chance after chance after chance.....

Then comes Noah and his family who obeyed God to a tee....even up to building the arc...and Noah talking to all the people as to why he was doing it. Again through God giving chances up to the last moment. They did it their way,........

Then read above about the flood...

So the bottom line is this........God as loving as he can only be pushed so far by "MANS" disobedience. So if your going to put blame....then by golly put the blame where it belongs.....on "MAN" not on God.

It's like I always say to people....even if not godly....Do they thank God every day for what they have? No....But boy oh boy they want to blame God when anything goes wrong in their lives.

What are you talking about? You have not even addressed the contradiction. Either God is happy with his creation or he is not happy with his creation. Im asking, which is it?

At creation, God was happy. After mankind's will turned towards wickedness, God wasn't happy. God is capable of emotions, this is clearly established in scripture.

I got it!!!

HE HAD NO CHOICE!!! A GOD WITH NO CHOICE!!!

HE HAD TO ERADICATE MANKIND FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH, BECAUSE MAN 'PISSED' GOD OFF!!!

MAN MADE GOD LOOSE HIS TEMPER!!!

I'M GLAD OUR LAÏC TRIBUNALS DON'T USE THAT TROUBLING FUZZY LOGIC!!!

I would hate to meet a judge whom would declare a 'murderer' justified,

'... because it is clear that his wife wouldn't obey him, in spite of the 'poor man's' clear and repeated 'laws & orders' to his wife!!!...'

And he's also quite capable of contradicting himself or so the evidence would once again have us believe....Men are also capable of contradicting themselves. That's if you are arguing that this was written by anything other than a man. Men also are capable of emotions. Omnipotent beings, that’s not quite in typical form or character. Once again, this lends credibility towards the assertion that this book was written by humans.

if god was increased knowing with time of the heart, and satan was a mind, only conscious "seen things" as half-wisdom only, then could god only be wisdom of man, and man god, mankind as coming to an understanding as god or full wisdom learned thru many generations.........

yea, the woes of ignorance for any child is great, and so be the woes of civilization as great, and no different, as if one child of a human man, when coming to stand beside his father, knowing all his good human father has taught him, is equal with him in all understanding of the heart AND in knowledge of the mind, the could it not be the same with civilization as a whole as well, each one walking the same quest, all seeing and learning from all different perscpectives, each as if at all different times, as a man spun around till dizzy, set free to roam and aquire wisdom, none knowing the whole picture of all learned until a time the thing making dizzy stops.......peace

1)Ok here is something interesting . . . don't you think if God wanted to write a book it would be so amazingly written as to not have anything of which to argue over? (just thought all the strife in the forum is the last thing god would want his flock to pursue . . regardless of interpretation)

Or is its obscurity another test? Maybe you are not passing . . . .



2) Oh spider Id love to see your evidence that creation took 7 days . . . that would really make my day. In fact id love to have any evidence of any miracle EVER.

Right on, man. We had another debate you might be interested in. You have to scroll back though because it’s a few pages behind this one but on the same thread. I noticed that there was an inconsistent statement made in genesis about when god actually created night and day (presumably morning and evening). At one point it says on the first day and then it says that he did not create the sun till the 4th day...Oh brother, there is just zero in the way of continuity. I guess that’s forgivable though. They did not have editors and all that back then.

Emotions like anger and jealousy are things of man. They are not things of God.

I agree that it is a contradiction that first God is happy and then he is not happy. God is supposed to be unchanging and God is supposed to be LOVE. God would not be unhappy.

This is a contradiction. If it is not a contradiction then the God described in the Bible is not the true unchanging God. The God described in the Bible is an impostor, an alien mistook as a God by ignorant men.

JB