enough!!

ok?

here's my take on it for what it is worth.

christians vs non christians = no winner

never will be!!


however -

Abra, Jb, Belushi, V, myself, DavidB, and the rest = 100% correct!!! ""for themselves"" (each individually) as to what they choose to believe and hold as truths!!!


Ferralpussee, Wouldee, Spider, Eljay, MS, and the rest = 100% Correct!!! for their beliefs in what they choose to believe and hold as truths for them, collectively or individualy!!!


C'mon guys, enough's enough doncha think

no one's winning here - everyone's loosing as to their stance against one another.

Let deb and the rest minister how they want and we will do as we have been doing - sharing our beliefs with each other about spiritual matters.

what do you say huh?

truce? Mis-trial? not worth it?

i find no peace in this thread at all.

Wouldn't it just be easier to believe you'll never die?

Well - my nephew just flunked out of high school Abra. Don't you think he should get into Harvard?

ok, im not even going to bother anymore.

nite people. Pleasent dreams to all.

Interesting thought. But they knew exactly who's tomb he was placed in, and it would have been easy to find. It was the one surrounded with Roman guards and sealed.

Except that is ridiculous. Death is as much a part of life as eating and breathing.Cyclic and interwoven into the very fabric of our beings. Everything living, dies. I would prefer to actually live while I am here and enjoy the Earth. It seems a horrible waste of time and spirit to me to set around worrying about after death and what you will do then up in "heaven". Not all of us believe in that idea. Many take into account that "rebirth" is very likely to occur, much in the same way the earth regenerates itself through death (winter) and gives birth again in the Spring. You also dont see anyone requesting that "mother earth" pay a bunch of atonements to human priests.

I’m also not so sure about your tomb theories. Even if they did go back to the correct burial area. You claim Romans were guarding it? Would it not have been possible that the Romans took it upon themselves to get rid of his body? It could have been dumped in a trash heap, torn to pieces, moved. Any number of things might have happened to it. Are there any witnesses that he went anywhere mystical or spooky? Or just the accounts of those that couldn’t find it later on? None of this would hold up to the cross examination of even a first year public defender in a court of law.

Abra had a good point that more than likely, that story about him resurrecting himself from the grave was written a long time after the actual event of his death. Unless you are still arguing this was written by god? The tone of the scripture sure changes a lot to be written by one pen.


The issue of him rising is not a contradiction per se. Its just easily questioned, much like the virgin birth and any number of other lofy claims espoused by the bible. I found another contradiction so are we done with these? Let me know. Thank you.

How do you explain Jesus living among his friends for 40 days after his resurrection?

The same way we have explained most all of these discrepancies and contradictions. Its a made up story story written by a man.

I think you are prrrrrrrrr fectly correct........meowwwwwww tribo-master





This is it.......all talk about their spiritual beliefs and you will get no problems from me.......Leave what I believe completely out of it......

But if you continue to berait and insult what I believe.....then I will know you just a stupid jerk and ignore you anyway........

That verse was quoted for your sake, you mentioned it, so I directed quoted the verse. I didn't intend for anyone to believe that the single verse I quoted explained spiritual warfare.

Daniel had a vision of the future, which he believed to be the end of the world. Daniel mourned and prayed and fasted for three weeks and then an angel appeared to speak to him.

Daniel 10:11-13


Notice, that the moment (three weeks past) that Daniel first prayed, this angel tried to come to him to comfort him and explain his visions. But the angel was prevented from delivering the message by the "prince of the kingdom of Persia" prevented him from delivering the message, until the arch angel Michael showed up to struggle with the "prince of the kingdom of Persia". Then the speaking angel in the verses above was able to come to Daniel to answer his prayer.

Daniel 10:20


Once the message was delivered, the angel (probably Gabriel) had to return to the fight, because now the "prince of Gre'cia" had entered the fight.

The angel who delivered this message wasn't acting under the orders of God, he was fulfilling the prayers of a man, Daniel.

Sorry, but I don't have time to go into anymore detail right now.

So basically, what you are saying, is that the only reason christianity isn't viable is because it is oral tradition passed to written word.

The ancient cultures of diety worship (Greek, Egyptian, Hindu, tribal totems and icons) that have been referred to, often have artifacts in stone. Since these seem plausable in nature because of there relics, it stands to reason that if the christian bible was written in stone and not on paper, it too would then be plausable.

If I remember correctly, somewhere in the deep south they blasted the ten commandments into the side of a mountain. So at least part of it, is written in stone.

How am I suppose to know that a figurine of a female "with child" is a totem? How can I be sure that area didn't have a wandering artist with a fetish for pregnant women? There is a guy in this country that did wooden statues of native americans in all fifty states (there's one in Troy less than 15 miles from here). How can I know that stonehenge wasn't actually just a big circus tent at one time? Sure it was well laid out, but it might have just been a meeting hall. Those big snakes on the Mayan temples could just be there because the architec was eating the local mushrooms.

My point is, religion of all natures is based on faith, not facts. It is what it is because you choose to believe it.

And then those guys who made up a fake story about Jesus allowed themselves to be tortured and then they died while continuing to insist upon the lie? Nobody does that. People will lie to escape torture, but will they continue to lie so that they will continue to be tortured? What about Peter, who saw his wife carried off to be executed, because of his claim that Jesus was God? Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense to believe that they would make up a lie and hold to that lie while being tortured and right through their own executions.

Shouldn't you take some of your own advice then?

I would really appreciate not making up stuff.........We have our beliefs on what happen......can't you just stop belittling and destroying what we believe......It so sadly pathetic.....I don't even see it as a debate anymore and you don't see me putting and changing what you believe...All I do is defend what I believe.....Grow up people and get on with it.


And abra doesn't know squat....he talks the mighty talks and draws people in...but he doesn't know squat.

Ever thought of writing about what your beliefs are and not talking about ones you truly know nothing of.

I will use this example again as it fits so perfect....



your born
you grow up
you go to school
you get a job
you raise and have a wonderful family
life is peachy
then you die
I personally think the creator had a lil but more in store...

For one thing, you have proven yourself quite incapable of comprehensive debate. All you have done thus far is become emotional and upset. You lash out at others. You called Abra pathetic, you called me a lil girl. I do not know you. You have no right to say things like that. I even attempted to speak to you and introduce myself and you ignored it and went on with your own questionable behaviors. Leave me out of this. Everyone on this forum has endured sorrows in their life but it does not excuse them from common courtesy and the rules of debate.

And the Pagans, whose beliefs predated the Christians by thousands of years? How do you explain them exactly? They were tortured beyond description. Do I really need to start bringing all those examples up? I will if need be and it wont be pretty. I won’t go in chronological order either and start with the Salem Witch Trials if you like.

Okay, the Salem Witch trials had nothing to do with pagan beliefs.

But let's compare apples to apples. Did those pagans make up their beliefs or were they taught to them? They were taught their beliefs, right? The difference is that you are claiming that the apostles made up lies and continues to proclaim those lies as truth while they were tortured. Someone might be willing to die for a belief they were raised believing, but would 12 people be willing to be tortured and die for a story they made up? Would they watch their families and friends tortured and murdered while continuing with the lie? Face facts, that doesn't make sense.

Um excuse me?? The Salem Witch Trials had nothing to do with Paganism or a Goddess/Earth based religion and a lot of Christian resentment of that belief structure which was its predecessor? Just how in denial are you? That’s laughable.

As far as how these earth based religions were handed down from generation to generation and from people to people is not totally known. It wasn't by the use of force as was often the case with Christianity if that is what you are getting at. Many scholars and archeologists as well as physical and cultural anthropologists tend to lean towards visualization. Peoples simply practiced and had faith in what they stood on, the Earth. They also tended to associate the cycles of the Earth with the female as a life bringer and nurturer. There was a definite correlation there and still is. That was part of the reason why Christianity was met with a bit of puzzlement to these early civilizations. A male god that rides solo up in the clouds? He gives birth? No he doesn’t give birth really but he does ask for payment when the females continue to perform this oldest of tasks on Earth as they have been since the beginning of humans. Hmmm. Confusing.

12 people being tortured, oh, how these early story tellers suffered, please, try all of the Pagans who were tortured, mutilated, raped over the centuries. Horrible.