Now you have changed the subject.

The POINT I was making was that the apostles were tortured and murdered for teaching that Jesus was God. If they were lying, why would they have gone through the torture and murder? Why would they have watched their families and friends tortured and murdered? That's the point I was making, you seem to be changing the subject to avoid this point.

I have never changed the subject. You don’t even listen to what I have said. You are avoiding the issue. You seem to feel that Paganism had nothing to do with the Witch Trials. That is untrue. Maybe you meant that as a joke. Who knows?

The apostles were storytellers. I am assuming you don’t argue that point either. I’m not really all that impressed with 12 people who may have been tortured as compared to ALL of the Pagans and what they endured at the hands of these Christians. That has been my stand. Debate that if you can.

Debate what? The Appeal to Emotion you have posted?

The apostles were storytellers? What does that mean? I'm not sure what your point there is, but it doesn't refute mine.

Are you claiming that the apostles were liars who would rather die than tell the truth?

The people killed in the Salem Witch trials were Christians, killed for being suspected witches. That is all. If you want to go to a source which isn't historically accurate, that's your choice.

The number of "pagans" "tortured" and "murdered" has no relevance to this discussion. You seem to be stuck on the belief that I'm complaining that the Apostles were tortured and murdered. That's not what I'm saying at all.

Krimsa, i see your having a hard time with this,

I understand, but it was not just the 12 apostles who were tortured and killed, it was thousands of the early believers also.

if you read roman history, you will see they were put to death in the arena's for being no more than followers of the Christ- AKA: Jesus. These were truly a more noble people than the apostles them selves in this sense - they were giving there lives freely on blind faith alone - meaning - unlike the apostles, they had never actually seen Jesus in person.

a close read of roman history will show they were fed to the lions, bears, and other animals, they were made to fight (which they refused) and slaughtered, they were used as living torches to light up the gardens for Nero, they were hanged, crucified, and subjected to all sorts of tortures.

I know what your saying about the "Roman church that came later on, i can't disagree with your take on that, neither would other's here that incredible bad things happened during the crusades, the inquisition, and throughout most of the roman catholics history that later spilled over into protestant religion, they all should be ashamed of their stupidity and actions.

TLW and others will verify this also, but is not just about the roman church, it is about what they were willing to die for. Is it just a story? would you be "willing" to "willingly die" for your beliefs if it was just a story? Are you that sure of your belief's?

I think that is the point trying to be made here, not so much how good or bad the church became later on when in the control of "men" or the protestant and other churches later on - and god became a tool, for those in power to use to control others within the faith and even without the faith.

People all over the world have died for their beliefs, that is not my point.

Tribo and Krisma,

If the Apostles were LYING about Jesus' resurrection, why would they continue to lie while being tortured and murdered? If they knew it wasn't true, why would they suffer so.

REMEMBER, I AM REFUTING KRISMA'S ARGUMENT THAT THE APOSTLES LIED ABOUT JESUS' RESURRECTION. (caps for emphasis)

for the same friggin reason men who have been caught and tortured during war and not let out anything but there name - rank - and serial # - spider, because they were told not to, if they had admitted it was a lie it would have ended, they were not about to let that happen, to much time and effort had went into it for them to let it die out!!!!
now you don't have to agree with that spider, i could care less!! but it is an answer!!

It doesn't make sense. WHO TOLD THEM TO LIE? Supposedly, they came up with it together. And what was the end goal? So that a tiny sect that gathered in hiding would continue to exist? And if it wasn't true, why wouldn't they recant their story and once freed continue to mislead people? That scenario is impossible to any rational mind. It is more probable that Jesus is God than 12 people underwent torture and watched their family and friends tortured and murdered for a lie they had made themselves. Peter was tortured for nine straight months, during which time he converted dozens of jailors. His last chance to recant his story would have allowed his wife to live, but instead he celebrated that she was going to be killed soon so that they would be in heaven together. And when it was Peter's turn to executed, he said he wasn't good enough to be crucified upright like Jesus was, so he demanded that he be crucified upside down. There is no rational explanation for that, other than the fact that the apostles were absolutely convinced that Jesus had been resurrected.

Heresay spider, nothing but pure unadulterated - hearsay!! If you want to believe that be my guest!! these are nothing but extra-biblical stories and myths - period. Show me something from th book that states what you say - bible man-

Tribo, your opinion of course you know I respect. You are a scholar and I could sit and listen to you for hours. I have no doubt that the actual followers of Jesus were viciously abused and were treated every bit as cruelly as the Pagans. This should not be turned into a contest of "whose religion has endured/inflicted more torture." We all know the Pagans would certainly lose as they have existed longer than the Christians for one (dating back to the Neolithic) and secondly, because Pagan beliefs, by their very nature would not require the utilization of force and fear to recruit new members as we so often see with Christianity. Can you honestly say you have ever been woken up at 9:00 am on a Saturday morning by Pagan proselytizing and the handing off of a bunch of lit?

Spider, please do not lose your temper with me and I will not respond to caps (the equivalent of screaming in a forum). I would turn around and walk away from you if you DARED raise your voice to me in person so don’t think you could get away with it here. I ask that you simply debate what I have brought forward to the table. You do not have to like what I say, simply refute it in a civilized manner. Got it?

What do you not understand when I make the claim that the bible was written by a bunch of different people? It is stories. Some of it might be true, but a lot of it probably isn’t. Especially when it gets too far fetched. I tend to be a realist. Virgin births are outlandish; Christ walking around 40 days after his supposed death is probably a fictitious tale also. Can you tell me it isn’t with a straight face? If you did, it would be only because you have faith that it is true or you just want and need to believe it’s true. Ether way, it’s illogical to me. That’s your own business. I have no problem with what people choose to believe or put their faith in as long as they harm no one else nor themselves.

As for the Salem Witch trials, there is ample evidence to support that there were women who were practicing midwifery which was strictly forbidden by the church of that time period. We are discussing New England here about 1692. The patriarchal beliefs that Puritans held in the community added further concers for alarm. Women, they believed, should be totally subservient to men. By nature, a woman was more likely to enlist in the Devil's service than was a man, and women were considered lustful by nature. In addition, the small-town atmosphere made secrets difficult to keep and people's opinions about their neighbors were generally accepted as fact. Girls had additional restrictions heaped upon them. Boys enjoyed many more freedoms, could learn trades and apprentice while girls were trained from a tender age to spin yarn, cook, sew, weave, and be servants to their husbands. Needless to say, these accusations and fears led to what we know now as a horrible period of time for women. Some of the tortures that were inflicted upon even very young girls are so horrendous I am not going to type them out. All of these atrocities were performed by “holy men”.

Notice that I put a label which reads "caps for emphasis". Emphasis doesn't mean I'm "screaming" or losing my temper, I was trying to draw your attention. I wanted to let you understand that this sentence was the heart of what I was posting.

I feel that we should take a break, feelings are becoming too heated. My statements are being misconstrued as "screaming", despite the fact that I noted the caps were for emphasis. I would be glad to pick up where we left off once everyone has had a chance to cool down.

Im not angry. I thought you were. You just get "snippy" and sometimes I misunderstand your tone. Its not like any debate I have heard before. You are welcome to post whenever you want on this but Im watching Juge Judy. I like it when she yells at litigants.

The True Authorship Of The New Testament by Abelard Reuchlin, first printed in the United States in 1979.

It talked about an inner circle or inner ring, the most exclusive club in history, who knew the ‘Great Secret’. In this circle were those religious, political and literary leaders, who knew the truth about Jesus, but did not want anyone else to know.

What struck me was that this book came to the same conclusions that I had. The Gospels are an invention designed to manufacture a new prison-religion.

The book names the family and others who wrote the New Testament and the codes they used to ‘sign’ their authorship.

One of these codes, interestingly, is the number 40. Forty was also represented by the letter M, as in Mary. The letter M is very significant to the Brotherhood still today and we see it everywhere in the symbol of the McDonalds fast food chain.

We will see later how the big corporations use Brotherhood symbolism in their logos and names. M means Mary or Madonna, who means Semiramis. The wealth of evidence in Reuchlin’s book, much of it complex and dealing with esoteric mathematical codes, is extremely compelling. I do recommend you try to get hold of a copy if you want the full details. The opening paragraph encapsulates its findings:

“The New Testament, the Church and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso (pronounced Peso) family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it - Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, John the Baptist - all are fictional. The Pisos created the story and the characters; they tied the story to a specific time and place in history; and they connected it with some peripheral actual people, such as the Herods, Gamaliel, the Roman procurators, etc. But Jesus and everyone involved with him were created (that is fictiotional!) characters.”

JB

yeah, that can be annoying to say the least, especially if you've been out late - hahaha

Actually the reason people yell or speak louder in an argument is for "emphasis" and to draw attention.

If you do it a small amount and lay off the exclamation points at the end it is not so bad and not always considered screaming. Here is what I consider screaming:

YOU SILLY BOY YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO SCREAM TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS!!!!!

That was just a sample. Caps with exclamation points is definitely yelling or screaming.

jb

hmmmm - i'll see if can find it JB, thnx

That would depend upon the person, wouldn't it? I was in a hurry, I would have bolded the text or put it in italics, but hitting the caps lock and typing it out was quicker. If you want to be an internet rules lawyer, then I guess I broke the law.

Not to quibble, but I wasn't in an argument...or at least I didn't realized I was. I thought we were having a discussion.

then what if you post with regular case and lots of exclamation points? - just loud talk? -

or large letters and periods? huh?

or no punctuation at all?

or lots of question marks????????????????????????


or periods........................................

what is the proper forum ettiquette on this jellybean?:)-*&^%$#@!?":</';][][`

Alright, sorry. I misunderstood spider. I thought he was angry and using caps to yell. Maybe he wasn't. Its probably not a good practice to write entire sentences with caps as it jumps out at people. Let's get back to the debate shall we?

(I added smilies to show the emotion with the explanation)


Regular point and lots of exclamation points is someone who is very excited, not necessarily angry and yelling.

Example:
Hey I just won the lottery!!!!!!! I'm so Happy!!!!!!

But more than one exclamation point is bad punctuation form.

Same goes for more than one question mark. More than one question mark is an in-your-face interrogation.

Example:

Well where were you last Saturday night when I called?????????

No punctuation at all is just slothful.

Running of periods between words instead of proper punctuation is a person who runs all his thoughts together and never seems to want to commit to making a point.

They just want to..... mumble their ideas......and meekly...make suggestive.......remarks and ideas....but they are only suggesting..... or thinking out loud.....and they mean no harm.....excuse them very much.... they don't mean to be forceful.

Those are Jeanniebean's laws of proper posting. You can follow them or not.

JB

I see this thread has moved on to new arugments.

So was it ever settled then about birth causing a woman to be spiritually unclean?

The last I saw Krimsa had it biblically nailed and all the opposing arguments were non-biblical speculative mumbo jumbo.

What's the score on that one Tribo? You seem to be the most impartial observer here.