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| Topic: Throw down | |
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So much of the Old Testament law was intended to show the futility of works in making one worthy of salvation. I have no doubt about that at all. That was an extreme point to it. No question about that. The real question is who was attempting to brainwash the people into believing this superstition? God, or Man? You believe it was God. I believe it was Man. I don't buy into to the idea that we cannot make ourselves 'worthy' of God's love. The Bible wants to claim that man cannot avoid sin on his own. It demands this so strongly that it virtually says that it's impossible for man to avoid sin without asking for God's help. But WAIT A MINUTE! That's a CONTRADICTION! It's a contradiction because man is supposed to be responsible for his sins. But if the Bible says that he cannot make himself worthy of God on his own, and that such a thing is impossible without God, then how could he possibly be held responsible for something that is impossible for him to do? It was brainwashing scheme to convince everyone that they are sinners and that they need to worship the CHURCH! Thus being a method to keeping the masses in-line with no person having exception. It's over now. That was in the dark ages. We know better now. Let's drop it an move on.  The real creator of this universe isn't like that. We can be worthy of the love of our creator. Think positive! Don't allow those ancient superstitions to lay that impossible guilt trip on you. You can be worthy of your creator! You can stand tall and reach out to your creator with loving arms. You can be proud of who and what you are! You don't need to wallow in guilt and shame anymore. Cast off the ball and chain ancient demented superstitions, and reach out to God with the confidence that you ARE WORTHY of his LOVE! Not with egotistical arrogance!!! But with the CONFIDENCE that you ARE WORTHY of his LOVE! |
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Debbie wrote: The rituals DO NOT APPLY ANYMORE....HELLO ARE YOU LISTENING. Now you're just handing me more support for my original assertion that the Biblical God CHANGES what he wants from humanity. If God wanted rituals from humanity at one time and no longer want them today, then he CHANGED. This is only a contradiction because the biblical God is supposed to be UNCHANGING. Making excuses for WHY he changed is moot. It's a "Have your cake and eat it too" religion. God is unchaning but he changes all the time. God is all-powerful but Satan is wrecking havoc with his creation. God holds man responsible for 'falling' to sin, but according to the bible it's IMPOSSIBLE for man not to fall to sin without God's help. The religion is nothing but contradiction after contradiction after contradiction.  |
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twist it some more.....it's what you do best abra.
Man is sinful yes........except for abra.... It is impossible for man not to sin......except for abra. How is the below a contradiction abra..... The Bible wants to claim that man cannot avoid sin on his own. It demands this so strongly that it virtually says that it's impossible for man to avoid sin without asking for God's help. But WAIT A MINUTE! That's a CONTRADICTION! It's a contradiction because man is supposed to be responsible for his sins. But if the Bible says that he cannot make himself worthy of God on his own, and that such a thing is impossible without God, then how could he possibly be held responsible for something that is impossible for him to do? Man will always sin.....But if your help accountable to God then you "MAY" not....does that mean that you don't ever ever....no........ so wrong abra....no contradiction.....TRY AGAIN. WORSHIP THE CHURCH YOUR A DELUSIONAL LIL MAN.....WHO WOSHIPSA THE CHURCH ABRA....... You are wrong abra.....you have always been wrong....and every lil thing that you could ever in a lifetime bring up to dispute it......I will be right behind you disputing your dispute....giggle. You think it's just that you abra.....oh the nice abra...the nice neighbor......think again....there is much much more to it then that. The sad truth abra....is in all your writings you want to justify living as you do....but sorry that is just not how it works... And with all that you say about it abra......you are far from worthy. And that my friend is just the sad truth. |
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I will admit, that a lot of Old Testiment laws are "safety" laws. A pig is "unclean" because in 1000 BC, a pork chop could kill you.
However, and I will admit, I haven't reread this entire thread. Abra brought up a good point. Actually Abra brought up the same point he's always bringing up, but he used different language. Who says the appropriate words don't sometimes strike a different chord. I'd never considered the contradiction in that man is held responsible for something he cannot overcome. The way they taught us in church made me believe, that no matter how much repenting you did, you'd always fall short. I've generally considered it's because the Old Testiment is often used in Christian settings, and the clergy often have trouble "connecting" the two different sides of God that you see. The point Abra brings up, when viewed in conjunction with Jesus teachings in the New Testiment, is VALID. Christ often spoke of how you can find God's love, by living by his example, and that through his example you do believe yourself worthy, or as an equal. Christ himself can be quoted as saying "have I not said you are gods?" |
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This only difference between you and I Feral is that I believe in God without a crutch. That's only difference between us sweets.
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Twist twist abra.......
JESUS THAT IS ALL JESUS JESUS JESUS Twist twist abra......GOD DOESN'T CHANGE.......God given his only son so that we may have everlasting life....that is what took the laws away.....Are they still important.....of course they are. twist twist abra......twist all you want but it will NEVER EVER EVER CHANGE WHAT IS. Abra lets see if I can make this more clear......I try my best to never sin......Do I sometimes fall yes......so I ask for forgiveness and really mean it from my heart yes......Do I just keep sinning and ask for forgiveness NO.... so once again you have fallen flat on your contradiction behind.......no contradictions........TRY AGAIN |
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This only difference between you and I Feral is that I believe in God without a crutch. That's only difference between us sweets. oh really abra and what is this crutch you think I have.....please enlighten me oh most cutieful one.....hmmmmm are you one of the ones I am allowed to say that to....gigglesnort. |
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It's clear.......it's says circumsized how much more clear would you like it....May I suggest a study bible one that is not so hard to understand....and please I mean no disrespect here at all...I know I love my Open Bible Study Bible......It's a good one...sometimes some of the Bibles are hard to understand. Feral person, DO NOT use that tone with me based on what went down last night. You have not even offered one bit of cohesive debate that I have seen yet. There is absolutely nothing in Leviticus that confirms ANYTHING about this supposed "foreskin credit" afforded to the mother. I have presented what is actually written down. The rebuttals have consisted of assumptions. Its seems only fair that you should debate what the origional poster actually used from the King James Bible. Wasn't it you that went on sniveling and moaning about how we dont use the actual scripture. There you go. Work with it. Krimsa I am not using any tone.....please I am just trying to give you the information......Why are you dwelling on stupid trivial things....the foreskin has nothing at all to do with it......It the circumsicion and the woman healing and doing a sin offering as for the Lord to bless her that is it. I gave you exactly what the scriptures meant.....and still you go on. I understand the bible I was trying to make it easier on you....want the answers to your question I would be happy to do so...but at least read what I write.....and understand it before you assume I have not given you what your looking for. I have answered every question you have put out there. It says in Leviticus that a woman's cleansing period is twice as long if she has born a maid (female child) as opposed to a male. It NEVER claims that because a boy's foreskin will be removed, that cancels out any of her sin of childbirth. If she is already “unclean” as a woman, it stands to reason that a baby girl would require the additional time in the penalty box so to speak. Please show me where it clearly states the foreskin removal from her son will decrease her time spent in ritual cleanse.(I shudder as to what that might have entailed with these priests.) You can also explain why she can not touch any holy objects. You can tell us all why she must pay the priests/clergy for this atonement. While you are at it, please enlighten us as to WHY atonement would be required except to make amends for her ability to give birth. In other words, why did they bother to even write Leviticus? Not what you want it to mean, but what they are saying in actuality. All I am asking for is actual text (as I have presented to you) that will disprove my theory. |
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Alright, fair enough. I will look up the Jewish law and customs in this time period and maybe the foreskin thing is elaborated on but I still think its kind of misogynist in its tone. I’m not sure how many of you would still argue that. The bible is kind of known for this. There is also a contradiction there between Genesis and "be fruitful and multiply" and Leviticus. Leviticus, as awful as it sounds is mild in tone. I could start copying and pasting the horrible ones from the bible but that might become counter productive and upsetting. "Nobody is "clean" enough to stand before God. What do warts have to do with sin? Nothing. The point is that the earthly things aren't "clean" enough to be in God's presence." Sorry I couldn’t find who said this so I didn’t use a quote but it is kind of a sad statement. Why is God so hard on these humans he has supposedly created in his image? Especially the lady folk? Why does he distance himself from them and the Earth? Krimsa; I'm not sure where you are in your reading of the Old Testamant - but if you've only read Leviticus, you are going to be extremely confused. In terms of thinking about the manner in which we live our lives today in comparison to what the Isrealites had to go through - nothing makes sense. That is why the OT can be so difficult to reason out without understanding what the Isrealites history is, and why there was a need for the Law in the first place. By the time we get to Jesus' time - it had become so convoluted and legalistic - that even Jesus had to teach the Priesats and Sanhedren what the Law actually meant, and it's purpose. Not sure where the "warts" reference is - but the reference to "clean" is one without sin. I guess you could say it is the central theme of the bible - that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It is why Jesus was sacrificed on the cross - as an atonement for man's sin. For the punishment of sin is death - and the blood is the life. Without it (the blood sacrifice - which must be perfect and unblemished) no one can dwell with God. There would be no place in heaven for anyone - it would mean an eternity separate from God. That's sort of it in a "quick cliff note" sort of way. |
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oh really abra and what is this crutch you think I have.....please enlighten me oh most cutieful one.....hmmmmm are you one of the ones I am allowed to say that to....gigglesnort. The crutch that you have appears to be a need to believe that the entire Bible is verbatim word of God. And that a particular religion holds the only truth of God. I have no need to believe in the Bible to believe in God. I have no need to believe that Jesus was God to believe in his words. I have no need to believe that Jesus rose from the dead to believe in God. The fact that I view Jesus as a mortal man does not dimish him. On the contrary, in my mind it elevates him. I have no question that Jesus does indeed sit at the right hand of God metaphorically speaking. I've spoken with Christians who were asked the following question,... What would think they of Jesus if it could be proven to them without a shadow of a doubt that he was not God. Ironically they all replied that they would denounce him as a fraud and a liar. Some even suggested that they'd have a whole second crucifixion for the fraud. What would I do if I discovered that Jesus was just a man? I'd give him a great big hug! I already figure that's precisely the case anyway. I'm not an atheist Debbie, and I never have been. In fact, I was closer to God before I learned about religion. Religion has been nothing but a big bad nightmare.  I perfer God over religion.  |
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So much of the Old Testament law was intended to show the futility of works in making one worthy of salvation. I have no doubt about that at all. That was an extreme point to it. No question about that. The real question is who was attempting to brainwash the people into believing this superstition? God, or Man? You believe it was God. I believe it was Man. I don't buy into to the idea that we cannot make ourselves 'worthy' of God's love. The Bible wants to claim that man cannot avoid sin on his own. It demands this so strongly that it virtually says that it's impossible for man to avoid sin without asking for God's help. But WAIT A MINUTE! That's a CONTRADICTION! It's a contradiction because man is supposed to be responsible for his sins. But if the Bible says that he cannot make himself worthy of God on his own, and that such a thing is impossible without God, then how could he possibly be held responsible for something that is impossible for him to do? It was brainwashing scheme to convince everyone that they are sinners and that they need to worship the CHURCH! Thus being a method to keeping the masses in-line with no person having exception. It's over now. That was in the dark ages. We know better now. Let's drop it an move on. The real creator of this universe isn't like that. We can be worthy of the love of our creator. Think positive! Don't allow those ancient superstitions to lay that impossible guilt trip on you. You can be worthy of your creator! You can stand tall and reach out to your creator with loving arms. You can be proud of who and what you are! You don't need to wallow in guilt and shame anymore. Cast off the ball and chain ancient demented superstitions, and reach out to God with the confidence that you ARE WORTHY of his LOVE! Not with egotistical arrogance!!! But with the CONFIDENCE that you ARE WORTHY of his LOVE! So what is the measure of this worthyness? How many good deeds must be done to exhibit one's sincerity. Or do you just "think it" - and - poof, there it is. How does one get out of the "reincarnation loop". Who is setting the bar, and how high is it? |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 08/05/08 04:56 PM
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Eljay, I have offered up 3 debates now. That is based on my reading of the King James Bible alone. I dont normally look at the bible except maybe the violent parts and exciting stories or absurd claims. It's chock full o that.
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So what is the measure of this worthyness? How many good deeds must be done to exhibit one's sincerity. Or do you just "think it" - and - poof, there it is. How does one get out of the "reincarnation loop". Who is setting the bar, and how high is it? Bar? Good deeds? You've got the whole wrong picture Eljay. You don't earn your way to God. There is nothing between you and God. No hurdles, no bars (unless you stop for a drink on the way) God is always right there for you anytime you're ready.
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God is always right there for you anytime you're ready. On second thought, maybe I shouldn't say that. I can only speak for myself and my relationship with God. I can't really speak for your relationship with God. It's whatever you make it I guess. Only YOU can't know that. 
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I don't buy into to the idea that we cannot make ourselves 'worthy' of God's love. I didn't say that, once again you fall back on a strawman fallacy. The Bible wants to claim that man cannot avoid sin on his own. It demands this so strongly that it virtually says that it's impossible for man to avoid sin without asking for God's help. But WAIT A MINUTE! That's a CONTRADICTION! It's a contradiction because man is supposed to be responsible for his sins. But if the Bible says that he cannot make himself worthy of God on his own, and that such a thing is impossible without God, then how could he possibly be held responsible for something that is impossible for him to do? This is not true. Men sin, even with God in their lives. People choose to sin or do so inadvertently. Jesus pays the debts of our sin, but we must still exert force of will to avoid sining. It's only a "contradiction", because you are misquoting or misunderstanding Christian doctrine. There is no doctrine that says men cannot avoid sinning without asking for God's help. Look to the Old Testament, when Job is describing how HE choose to not sin. How he would make his eyes avoid looking at women in a sexual manner. Look to God commending Abraham for keeping his commandments. There is ample proof that God doesn't help us stop sining, that's a choice we make. What God can do is give us a resurrected spirit, which helps to guide us in making better decisions and makes us more careful at avoiding sin, by making us more aware of sin. But the choice always lies with the man. If God caused us to avoid sin, that would mean God wasn't testing us and was dictating our actions. Sorry, I don't think that the Bible could be made to support that doctrine. |
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Edited by
smiless
on
Tue 08/05/08 04:40 PM
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Actually God is a really nice guy! I always have a few beers with him before falling asleep.
Sometimes we sing Lord Bless Charlie Mops!  The more you laugh the more you will know God!
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 08/05/08 04:37 PM
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I certainly wouldn’t shake a stick at the belief in reincarnation, sounds pretty good to me. I would rather hope I could return to the earth in some capacity, in animal or human form.
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ok so the Bible is my crutch.....hmmmmmm
The Bible is inspired of God.....no twisting abra....not allowed with me...... You don't believe in the bible? I do You don't believe Jesus is God And how exactly do you believe Jesus' word when he said himself I am the son of God....and as such does this not make him God also. As Jesus himself said he rose from the dead.....is this a contradiction of believing his words abra. Even when Jesus himself proclaims I am the son of God....does that not right their contradict that he was not just a mortal man........hmmmmm abra contradiction and contradiction. Jesus by his birthright is God... If my father was English and Irish as my mother then I could not be a Native American Indian no could I. and what would you do if it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christ is God? Never said you were an athiest.... I am reading a writing right now from someone I met on here actually......so lets get it up and see what you thing....I think you will like......it takes religion and church out of the picture.....and goes back to just the teachings of Christ... |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 08/05/08 04:43 PM
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"If my father was English and Irish as my mother then I could not be a Native American Indian no could I."
Don't really have much of an understanding of DNA, nor genetics do ya?  You also completely deny that Jesus might have had sons and daughters. Yeah, those male Jews during biblical times, rarely had wives or kids...  Its simply ridiculous. Get real…
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Jesus pays the debts of our sin, I don't believe in the whole "paying for sins" thing. That would be like buying the rights of disobedience. That's just more bloodly superstition IMHO. If you want to believe in the Bible by my guest. You're the one who started a thread to argue contradictions. Personally, I think the whole idea that sins need to be "paid" for is a contradiction. Sin is disobediece to God. Once sin has been committed it cannot be undone. What's the point in 'paying' for it? That makes no sense. That just implies that God is charging fees for his "forgiveness". If you want to believe in the Bible be my guest. Personally I think it's just one huge contradiction from cover to cover. And I don't hesitate to think outside of the stories. As far as I'm concerned if the Bible is claiming that a supposely all-wise, all-loving God is going something stupid, that's a contradiction. An all-powerful God being at war with a fallen angel? That's a contradiction in principle. Either God's not really at war with a fallen angel, or he's not all-powerful. One or the other. Can't have both. The list goes on and on and on,... |
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