Here is the bottom line.

1.Either life arises from consciousness or

2.consciousness arises from life.

If consciousness arises from life, then perhaps life (and consciousness) is just a freak accident. This creates more questions than answers.

Of course the third option (answered by religion) is that a separate creator, the "All Mighty God" created everything.

But if this is the case, then where did this creator come from?
Therefore this solution also creates more questions than answers and just goes in a circle.

These are the three basic choices on the table you can explore for answers.

My evidence and personal experience, so far, point to number one.

The other two lead no where.

#2 leads to a finite (hence 'dead') accidental universe.

and #3 leads you in circles.. who created God?

I have yet to see a glimmer of any proof or evidence or reason that would shake me from path #1.

Life arises from consciousness.

JB

That is where the word faith comes into play ! Maybe the question is not meant to be answered ! It's in striveing to live a life with a belief in good things that makes you either a good or lousy person . What do you think ?

just a point to ponder

on a spirital basis i opose abortion

but as a constitutionalist i am torn about it

thus i abstain from a position

but if a fetus moves away from womb disturbances
does not that mean they have an awareness (thus consciousness)

just a thought to ponder

I don't have faith when used in context with a specific religion. And I don't feel that I am a lousy person...so I don't think that quite works as a generalization to classify if a person is good or lousy. And many good people have faith in different religions...some of those people are good, some are lousy. Many people have faith in nothing, some of those people are good and some lousy. In the end, I don't believe it's the faith or the religion that defines if a person is good or bad.

It was'nt meant to be about a specific religion . It's about people believing in something unexplainable that makes them strive to be their best !And I'm not judgeing you either . That shall be left till the end of time .I would rather believe in something that makes me live a good life and then be proven wrong in the end than to live a rotten selfish life and find that there really is a creator in the end !

nono...I was saying that my faith or belief system (for me personally) is on a more general term :) After that I was saying religion to encompass any religion. I fully agree with what you said about people believing in something unexplainable :) But not all people believe in something unexplainable or have a religion and are still good people...etc etc...that's what I was saying

Well this is true I do not focus so much on the end result of Heaven or Hell as much as just liveing a life based on right or wrong . If you believe in doing the right things to and for people does'nt that make your goal in the end the same thing ? Some people may not be consious of an end result but they may still earn a a better place in the end !

I don't believe that is what faith is about. It is not about unanswered questions.

Life is not for the purpose of remaining blissfully ignorant. It is a journey of discovery and creativity. It is also about living a good life but a purposeful life of discovery and creative pursuits.

Faith is knowing that it all works. Discovery is finding out how it works.

JB

I believe that all things in existence has a degree of awareness, even a plant or a rock. Conscious Awareness comes in degrees in my opinion. Consciousness flows through all things, just as spirit does. It just is.

If life and the universe is an accident... please explain. I would like to know all the details of how an atheist believes. Anyone?

If we were created by an all knowing god, ...please explain where this god came from.

JB

EXCELLENT question!! This is the heart of the issue. This is where the battle lines get drawn. Is there or is there not a God?

If you don't know that there is a God, then the rest doesn't matter.

If you KNOW that there is a God, the rest is just arguing samantics.

This is the kind of thinking that I truly cannot understand at all.

Where is the justification in believing that just because someone doesn't believe in a creator they would automatically live a rotten selfish life?

I know many atheists who aren't the slightest bit rotten or selfish.

Also, doesn't this whole mindset reek of selfishness to begin with? It implies that a religious person would actually CHOOSE to be rotten and selfish, and would in fact BE rotten and selfish if they didn't think God exists.

It implies that they are merely trying to be good to avoid punishment or win a reward. Their only motivation is to appease an all-powerful being.

What does that say about the true nature of their own character?

I've have always held (and always lived) a positive, caring and unselfish life. It doesn't matter to me whether a God exists or not. I don't base who I am on whether or not there is a creator.

If I were going to become a Christian today, for example, I wouldn't need to change my behavior one iota. I already live my life in a way that matches what Jesus had taught.

The idea that religious people are only good because they are trying to satisfy the requirements of a God is truly sad.

However, if it keeps those people on the straight and narrow path, then more power to it! I'll gladly buy bibles for anyone who can't behave properly without one.

I just think it's sad that they aren't genuinely good people naturally. I think it's sad that they will only behave themselves if they are threatended by reprisal, or lured by reward.

It's terribly sad.

But hey, if it works to keep them from being who they truly are then ship out those bibles to the book stores!!!!

Can't I be rotten and selfish?

Does that label come with a self adhesive sticky strip?

I would argue that consciousness arises from life because without life there is no consciousness .But we are all stuck here because we do not know how life started . We can have religions and theories until infinity but we can not come with a concrete evidence yet . Life is a mystery and who created life is a bigger mystery .Once Voltaire said " Travaillons sans raisonner c'est le seul moyen de rendre la vie supportable ".
I add to that " not always Mr Voltaire ".

We should sell T-shirts that say:

ROTTEN AND SELFISH

I want one that says:

I'm innocent and I have alibis to prove it.

That seems reasonable

You say without life there is no consciousness but do you really know what consciousness is? How conscious are you? Have you ever met someone who seemed less conscious (less aware) than you? How about someone more aware than you?

What are you conscious of? Can you hear and smell what a dog hears and smells? Are you really as conscious as you should be?
When you are half asleep, how conscious are you then?

Consciousness, I believe comes in many degrees. I believe even rocks and plants have a degree of consciousness (and rocks aren't considered to be alive or conscious by most people.) But like the question at hand, it can't be proven.

JB

JB,

I have not read the entire thread, so please overlook that should this question have already been posed.

Are any of the above definitions from Webster conducive to your thought process?

Which one do you prefer, if any?

They all seem like fairly adequate definitions.

I like number three, as long as the term "individual" is not confined to a person or human being. It covers all degrees of consciousness when it says "the totality of conscious states of an individual.

JB

JB,

This claim implies your honest attempts at reasoning out other claims.

So then, are you claiming that you can and/or have logically and rationally refute(d) that which contradicts your beliefs?

Could it be that you have not perceived validity in another's claim and as a result of this lack of perception are not aware that they do exist?