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Nubby's photo
Thu 01/29/09 03:19 AM
Some time ago I was speaking at a university in England, when a rather exasperated person in the audience made his attack upon God.

“There cannot possibly be a God,” he said, “with all the evil and suffering that exists in the world!”

I asked, “When you say there is such a thing as evil, are you not assuming that there is such a thing as good?”

“Of course,” he retorted.

“But when you assume there is such a thing as good, are you not also assuming that there is such a thing as a moral law on the basis of which to distinguish between good and evil?”

“I suppose so,” came the hesitant and much softer reply.

“If, then, there is a moral law,” I said, “you must also posit a moral law giver. But that is who you are trying to disprove and not prove. If there is no transcendent moral law giver, there is no absolute moral law. If there is no moral law, there really is no good. If there is no good there is no evil. I am not sure what your question is!”

There was silence and then he said, “What, then, am I asking you?”

He was visibly jolted that at the heart of his question lay an assumption that contradicted his own conclusion.

You see friends, the skeptic not only has to give an answer to his or her own question, but also has to justify the question itself. And even as the laughter subsided I reminded him that his question was indeed reasonable, but that his question justified my assumption that this was a moral universe. For if God is not the author of life, neither good nor bad are meaningful terms.

This seems to constantly elude the critic who thinks that by raising the question of evil, a trap has been sprung to destroy theism. When in fact, the very raising of the question ensnares the skeptic who raised the question. A hidden assumption comes into the open. Moreover, as C. S. Lewis reminds us, the moment we acknowledge something as being “better”, we are committing ourselves to an objective point of reference.

The disorienting reality to those who raise the problem of evil is that the Christian can be consistent when he or she talks about the problem of evil, while the skeptic is hard-pressed to respond to the question of good in an amoral universe. In short, the problem of evil is not solved by doing away with the existence of God; the problem of evil and suffering must be resolved while keeping God in the picture.

Nubby's photo
Thu 01/29/09 03:13 AM
Is the Christian faith intellectual nonsense? Are Christians deluded?




More from Ravi Zacharias


“If God exists and takes an interest in the affairs of human beings, his will is not inscrutable,” writes Sam Harris about the 2004 tsunami in Letter to a Christian Nation . “The only thing inscrutable here is that so many otherwise rational men and women can deny the unmitigated horror of these events and think this is the height of moral wisdom.” In his article “God’s Dupes,” Harris argues, “ Everything of value that people get from religion can be had more honestly, without presuming anything on insufficient evidence. The rest is self-deception, set to music.” [ii] Ironically, Harris’ first book is entitled The End of Faith, but it should really be called The End of Reason as it demonstrates again that the mind that is alienated from God in the name of reason can become totally irrational.

Oxford zoologist Richard Dawkins suggests that the idea of God is a virus, and we need to find software to eradicate it. Somehow if we can expunge the virus that led us to think this way, we will be purified and rid of this bedeviling notion of God, good, and evil. [iii] Along with Christopher Hitchens and a few others, these atheists are calling for the banishment of all religious belief. “Away with this nonsense” is their battle cry! In return, they promise a world of new hope and unlimited horizons once we have shed this delusion of God.

I have news for them—news to the contrary. The reality is that the emptiness that results from the loss of the transcendent is stark and devastating, philosophically and existentially. Indeed, the denial of an objective moral law, based on the compulsion to deny the existence of God, results ultimately in the denial of evil itself. Furthermore, one would like to ask Dawkins, Are we morally bound to remove that virus? Somehow he himself is, of course, free from the virus and can therefore input our moral data.

In an attempt to escape what they call the contradiction between a good God and a world of evil, atheists try to dance around the reality of a moral law (and hence, a moral law giver) by introducing terms like “evolutionary ethics”. The one who raises the question against God in effect plays God while denying He exists. Now one may wonder: why do you actually need a moral law giver if you have a moral law? The answer is because the questioner and the issue he or she questions always involve the essential value of a person. You can never talk of morality in abstraction. Persons are implicit to the question and the object of the question. In a nutshell, positing a moral law without a moral law giver would be equivalent to raising the question of evil without a questioner. So you cannot have a moral law unless the moral law itself is intrinsically woven into personhood, which means it demands an intrinsically worthy person if the moral law itself is valued. And that person can only be God.

Our inability to alter what is actual frustrates our grandiose delusions of being sovereign over everything. Yet t he truth is we cannot escape the existential rub by running from a moral law. Objective moral values exist only if God exists. Is it all right, for example, to mutilate babies for entertainment? Every reasonable person will say “no.” We know that objective moral values do exist. Therefore, God must exist. Examining those premises and their validity presents a very strong argument.

Being Honest Ourselves

The prophet Jeremiah noted, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9, ESV). Similarly, the apostle James said, “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does” (James 1:22-25).

The world does not understand what the absoluteness of the moral law is all about. Some get caught, some don’t get caught. Yet who of us would like our heart exposed on the front page of the newspaper today? Have there not been days and hours when like Paul, you’ve struggled within yourself, and said, “ I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do… . What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? ” (Romans 7:15, 24). Each of us knows this tension and conflict within if we are honest with ourselves.

Therefore, as Christians, we ought to take time to reflect seriously upon the question, “Has God truly wrought a miracle in my life? Is my own heart proof of the supernatural intervention of God?” In the West we go through these seasons of new-fangled theologies. The whole question of “lordship” plagued our debates for some time as we asked, is there such a thing as a minimalist view of conversion? “We said the prayer and that’s it.” Yet how can there be a minimalist view of conversion when conversion itself is a maximal work of God’s grace? “Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV).

If you were proposing marriage to someone, what would the one receiving the proposal say if you said, “I want you to know this proposal changes nothing about my allegiances, my behavior, and my daily life; however, I do want you to know that should you accept my proposal, we shall theoretically be considered married. There will be no other changes in me on your behalf.” In a strange way we have minimized every sacred commitment and made it the lowest common denominator. What does my new birth mean to me? That is a question we seldom ask. Who was I before God’s work in me, and who am I now?

The first entailment of coming to know Jesus Christ is the new hungers and new pursuits that are planted within the human will. I well recall that dramatic change in my own way of thinking. There were new longings, new hopes, new dreams, new fulfillments, but most noticeably a new will to do what was God’s will. Thomas Chalmers characterized this change that Christ brings as “the expulsive power of a new affection.” This new affection of heart—the love of God wrought in us through the Holy Spirit—expels all other old seductions and attractions. The one who knows Christ begins to see that his or her own misguided heart is impoverished and in need of constant submission to the will of the Lord—spiritual surrender. Yes, we are all gifted with different personalities, but humility of spirit and the hallmark of conversion is to see one’s own spiritual poverty. Arrogance and conceit ought to be inimical to the life of the believer. A deep awareness of one’s own new hungers and longings is a convincing witness to God’s grace within.


Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:45 PM

I have yet to hear one of these contradictions cleared up totally or explained away. At the most we have decided it might have been a mistake actually made in the writing itself.


Are you gonna give me one?

Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:40 PM




1.Logical Consistency
2.Empirical Adequacy
3.Experiential Relevance




Do you truly feel that Christianity successfully demonstrates those 3 elements?



Yes I do.


Well we will just need to agree to disagree because far too many contradictions and inconsistencies have been revealed thus far on this forum as it relates to the bible for it to be the divine word of anything.



I will answer 1 contradiction. Most of them are red herrings and can be thrown out. I dont want to waste my time with them. Give me your best one.


Give me the verses though, so I can look them up.

Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:39 PM

So that means there should be no anger or resentment when we do so.


If you ask He will reveal himself to you.

Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:36 PM
Edited by Nubby on Wed 01/28/09 11:37 PM



1.Logical Consistency
2.Empirical Adequacy
3.Experiential Relevance




Do you truly feel that Christianity successfully demonstrates those 3 elements?



Yes I do.


Well we will just need to agree to disagree because far too many contradictions and inconsistencies have been revealed thus far on this forum as it relates to the bible for it to be the divine word of anything.



I will answer 1 contradiction. Most of them are red herrings and can be thrown out. I dont want to waste my time with them. Give me your best one.

Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:34 PM




OrangeCat,Faith, Hope, and Love


Faith, Hebrews 11
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

All Christians if they are following Christ have that "want to" to tell others of Christ’s Salvation. Because at one point in time they were there were you are at. If the spirit hasn’t reached you yet. Nothing will make sense until you read the word of God or someone tells you of his Salvation. Christ does save soles and I will put a short verse for you. I would encourage the reading of the whole Bible. A good place to start would be John.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.




What is the purpose of creating a system in which souls need saving?


Free will.


In that case, god also gave us free will to question his legitimacy and the legitimacy of his son.


Yes he did.

Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:29 PM

1.Logical Consistency
2.Empirical Adequacy
3.Experiential Relevance




Do you truly feel that Christianity successfully demonstrates those 3 elements?



Yes I do.

Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:29 PM

"If" being the operative word there, nubby. If you raised a dead cat in front of me, I would probably believe anything you told me to believe there after.


There is good evidence that supports a ressurection.

Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:27 PM


OrangeCat,Faith, Hope, and Love


Faith, Hebrews 11
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

All Christians if they are following Christ have that "want to" to tell others of Christ’s Salvation. Because at one point in time they were there were you are at. If the spirit hasn’t reached you yet. Nothing will make sense until you read the word of God or someone tells you of his Salvation. Christ does save soles and I will put a short verse for you. I would encourage the reading of the whole Bible. A good place to start would be John.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.




What is the purpose of creating a system in which souls need saving?


Free will.

Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:25 PM

all religions claim they have the truth. Whose correct?flowerforyou


They may all be wrong but they cant possibly be true.

What we look for in a good world view

1.Logical Consistency
2.Empirical Adequacy
3.Experiential Relevance

Nubby's photo
Wed 01/28/09 11:19 PM



Thats fine, assuming that there ever really was a Jesus, and as I said before, I sure havn't seen any proof. In my opinion, and im not alone, to believe anything that was written back then is ridiculas. I used to believe in God...



I believe it's pretty much established that Jesus existed in human form as a historical fact.
To me, he exists as the living God by nature of the Holy Spirit that dwells in my heart and convicts me to believe in him and the salvation he has promised.


thats you


but I have yet to seen any proof of a god.there will never be any proof of that either,((((((because no one can make it a fact that there is a god.))))))all there is are bibles,churches and words.......does not make it fact




If Jesus rose from the dead wouldnt you say God exists.

Nubby's photo
Tue 01/27/09 04:52 PM
I tell you what, ill read it then send it to you.

Nubby's photo
Tue 01/27/09 04:51 PM


I have very good historians praising his book.


Well people praise whatever they are going to praise. I tend to look at everything and make a call. What has me convinced is what Hitler actually said and did.


Then maybe you should read the book.

Nubby's photo
Tue 01/27/09 04:21 PM
I have very good historians praising his book.

Nubby's photo
Tue 01/27/09 04:20 PM
And who are these historians?

Nubby's photo
Tue 01/27/09 04:19 PM
Who wrote the article.

Nubby's photo
Tue 01/27/09 04:07 PM
You havent refuted anything, I havent read the book, its gotten alot of praise from very good scholarship. I dont care about expelled, you keep reverting back to that as if you have disproved something.

Nubby's photo
Tue 01/27/09 03:52 PM
"This book will prove to be an invaluable source for anyone wondering how closely linked Social Darwinism and Nazi ideologies, especially as uttered by Hitler, really were." --German Studies Review



I am getting the book and will quote directly from it after I have read it.

Nubby's photo
Tue 01/27/09 03:46 PM
"Richard Weikart's outstanding book shows in sober and convincing detail how Darwinist thinkers in Germany had developed an amoral attitude to human society by the time of the First World War, in which the supposed good of the race was applied as the sole criterion of public policy and 'racial hygiene'. Without over-simplifying the lines that connected this body of thought to Hitler, he demonstrates with chilling clarity how policies such as infanticide, assisted suicide, marriage prohibitions and much else were being proposed for those considered racially or eugenically inferior by a variety of Darwinist writers and scientists, providing Hitler and the Nazis with a scientific justification for the policies they pursued once they came to power." -- Richard Evans, Professor of Modern History, University of Cambridge, and author of The Coming of the Third Reich

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