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Topic: Tell me what you think
Nubby's photo
Thu 01/29/09 03:13 AM
Is the Christian faith intellectual nonsense? Are Christians deluded?




More from Ravi Zacharias


“If God exists and takes an interest in the affairs of human beings, his will is not inscrutable,” writes Sam Harris about the 2004 tsunami in Letter to a Christian Nation . “The only thing inscrutable here is that so many otherwise rational men and women can deny the unmitigated horror of these events and think this is the height of moral wisdom.” In his article “God’s Dupes,” Harris argues, “ Everything of value that people get from religion can be had more honestly, without presuming anything on insufficient evidence. The rest is self-deception, set to music.” [ii] Ironically, Harris’ first book is entitled The End of Faith, but it should really be called The End of Reason as it demonstrates again that the mind that is alienated from God in the name of reason can become totally irrational.

Oxford zoologist Richard Dawkins suggests that the idea of God is a virus, and we need to find software to eradicate it. Somehow if we can expunge the virus that led us to think this way, we will be purified and rid of this bedeviling notion of God, good, and evil. [iii] Along with Christopher Hitchens and a few others, these atheists are calling for the banishment of all religious belief. “Away with this nonsense” is their battle cry! In return, they promise a world of new hope and unlimited horizons once we have shed this delusion of God.

I have news for them—news to the contrary. The reality is that the emptiness that results from the loss of the transcendent is stark and devastating, philosophically and existentially. Indeed, the denial of an objective moral law, based on the compulsion to deny the existence of God, results ultimately in the denial of evil itself. Furthermore, one would like to ask Dawkins, Are we morally bound to remove that virus? Somehow he himself is, of course, free from the virus and can therefore input our moral data.

In an attempt to escape what they call the contradiction between a good God and a world of evil, atheists try to dance around the reality of a moral law (and hence, a moral law giver) by introducing terms like “evolutionary ethics”. The one who raises the question against God in effect plays God while denying He exists. Now one may wonder: why do you actually need a moral law giver if you have a moral law? The answer is because the questioner and the issue he or she questions always involve the essential value of a person. You can never talk of morality in abstraction. Persons are implicit to the question and the object of the question. In a nutshell, positing a moral law without a moral law giver would be equivalent to raising the question of evil without a questioner. So you cannot have a moral law unless the moral law itself is intrinsically woven into personhood, which means it demands an intrinsically worthy person if the moral law itself is valued. And that person can only be God.

Our inability to alter what is actual frustrates our grandiose delusions of being sovereign over everything. Yet t he truth is we cannot escape the existential rub by running from a moral law. Objective moral values exist only if God exists. Is it all right, for example, to mutilate babies for entertainment? Every reasonable person will say “no.” We know that objective moral values do exist. Therefore, God must exist. Examining those premises and their validity presents a very strong argument.

Being Honest Ourselves

The prophet Jeremiah noted, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9, ESV). Similarly, the apostle James said, “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does” (James 1:22-25).

The world does not understand what the absoluteness of the moral law is all about. Some get caught, some don’t get caught. Yet who of us would like our heart exposed on the front page of the newspaper today? Have there not been days and hours when like Paul, you’ve struggled within yourself, and said, “ I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do… . What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? ” (Romans 7:15, 24). Each of us knows this tension and conflict within if we are honest with ourselves.

Therefore, as Christians, we ought to take time to reflect seriously upon the question, “Has God truly wrought a miracle in my life? Is my own heart proof of the supernatural intervention of God?” In the West we go through these seasons of new-fangled theologies. The whole question of “lordship” plagued our debates for some time as we asked, is there such a thing as a minimalist view of conversion? “We said the prayer and that’s it.” Yet how can there be a minimalist view of conversion when conversion itself is a maximal work of God’s grace? “Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV).

If you were proposing marriage to someone, what would the one receiving the proposal say if you said, “I want you to know this proposal changes nothing about my allegiances, my behavior, and my daily life; however, I do want you to know that should you accept my proposal, we shall theoretically be considered married. There will be no other changes in me on your behalf.” In a strange way we have minimized every sacred commitment and made it the lowest common denominator. What does my new birth mean to me? That is a question we seldom ask. Who was I before God’s work in me, and who am I now?

The first entailment of coming to know Jesus Christ is the new hungers and new pursuits that are planted within the human will. I well recall that dramatic change in my own way of thinking. There were new longings, new hopes, new dreams, new fulfillments, but most noticeably a new will to do what was God’s will. Thomas Chalmers characterized this change that Christ brings as “the expulsive power of a new affection.” This new affection of heart—the love of God wrought in us through the Holy Spirit—expels all other old seductions and attractions. The one who knows Christ begins to see that his or her own misguided heart is impoverished and in need of constant submission to the will of the Lord—spiritual surrender. Yes, we are all gifted with different personalities, but humility of spirit and the hallmark of conversion is to see one’s own spiritual poverty. Arrogance and conceit ought to be inimical to the life of the believer. A deep awareness of one’s own new hungers and longings is a convincing witness to God’s grace within.


Nubby's photo
Thu 01/29/09 03:19 AM
Some time ago I was speaking at a university in England, when a rather exasperated person in the audience made his attack upon God.

“There cannot possibly be a God,” he said, “with all the evil and suffering that exists in the world!”

I asked, “When you say there is such a thing as evil, are you not assuming that there is such a thing as good?”

“Of course,” he retorted.

“But when you assume there is such a thing as good, are you not also assuming that there is such a thing as a moral law on the basis of which to distinguish between good and evil?”

“I suppose so,” came the hesitant and much softer reply.

“If, then, there is a moral law,” I said, “you must also posit a moral law giver. But that is who you are trying to disprove and not prove. If there is no transcendent moral law giver, there is no absolute moral law. If there is no moral law, there really is no good. If there is no good there is no evil. I am not sure what your question is!”

There was silence and then he said, “What, then, am I asking you?”

He was visibly jolted that at the heart of his question lay an assumption that contradicted his own conclusion.

You see friends, the skeptic not only has to give an answer to his or her own question, but also has to justify the question itself. And even as the laughter subsided I reminded him that his question was indeed reasonable, but that his question justified my assumption that this was a moral universe. For if God is not the author of life, neither good nor bad are meaningful terms.

This seems to constantly elude the critic who thinks that by raising the question of evil, a trap has been sprung to destroy theism. When in fact, the very raising of the question ensnares the skeptic who raised the question. A hidden assumption comes into the open. Moreover, as C. S. Lewis reminds us, the moment we acknowledge something as being “better”, we are committing ourselves to an objective point of reference.

The disorienting reality to those who raise the problem of evil is that the Christian can be consistent when he or she talks about the problem of evil, while the skeptic is hard-pressed to respond to the question of good in an amoral universe. In short, the problem of evil is not solved by doing away with the existence of God; the problem of evil and suffering must be resolved while keeping God in the picture.

no photo
Thu 01/29/09 05:54 AM

Is the Christian faith intellectual nonsense? Are Christians deluded?


sorry but Christian have not cornered the market on delusion ..all faiths no matter the religion or the demonination or the philosophy are delusional ....

faith is the practice of willingly placing oneself into a state of delusion


Eljay's photo
Thu 01/29/09 10:32 AM


Is the Christian faith intellectual nonsense? Are Christians deluded?


sorry but Christian have not cornered the market on delusion ..all faiths no matter the religion or the demonination or the philosophy are delusional ....

faith is the practice of willingly placing oneself into a state of delusion




That being said - there isn't a single person walking this planet who isn't delusional, for I defy you to live your life without faith in the fact that you'll even get up in the morning.

Without faith - we would be a planet of walking, delusional paranoid zombies incapable of functioning on any level in society.

Inkracer's photo
Thu 01/29/09 10:40 AM

That being said - there isn't a single person walking this planet who isn't delusional, for I defy you to live your life without faith in the fact that you'll even get up in the morning.

Without faith - we would be a planet of walking, delusional paranoid zombies incapable of functioning on any level in society.


That is a load of crap, you can live your life without faith, and I do it daily. . .

Faith- something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Expect- To look forward to the probable occurrence or appearance of

I don't have faith I will wake up tomorrow, I expect that I will wake up tomorrow.
Faith in mankind is why all those scams work so well. . .

no photo
Thu 01/29/09 11:12 AM

That being said - there isn't a single person walking this planet who isn't delusional, for I defy you to live your life without faith in the fact that you'll even get up in the morning.


"Eljay" you are describing depression ..to say you need faith to live your life and to get up in the morning means you have given up on life and this frame of mind falls not in the realm of faith but suicide

no photo
Thu 01/29/09 11:26 AM

Without faith - we would be a planet of walking, delusional paranoid zombies incapable of functioning on any level in society.


"Eljay" that's why religion is an acceptable delusion ...in order engrain the walking zombies into society

if one claim that they hear voices society may deem you as being delusional and dangerous to function within that society without some form of medical treatment

but if one claim to hear the voice of God then society have deem this to be an acceptable delusion with the church and the government providing many ways to ensure the person that they can function within the society

Eljay's photo
Thu 01/29/09 03:14 PM
Edited by Eljay on Thu 01/29/09 03:16 PM


That being said - there isn't a single person walking this planet who isn't delusional, for I defy you to live your life without faith in the fact that you'll even get up in the morning.

Without faith - we would be a planet of walking, delusional paranoid zombies incapable of functioning on any level in society.


That is a load of crap, you can live your life without faith, and I do it daily. . .

Faith- something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Expect- To look forward to the probable occurrence or appearance of

I don't have faith I will wake up tomorrow, I expect that I will wake up tomorrow.
Faith in mankind is why all those scams work so well. . .


If you think you live your life without faith - you're delusional.

Eljay's photo
Thu 01/29/09 03:15 PM


That being said - there isn't a single person walking this planet who isn't delusional, for I defy you to live your life without faith in the fact that you'll even get up in the morning.


"Eljay" you are describing depression ..to say you need faith to live your life and to get up in the morning means you have given up on life and this frame of mind falls not in the realm of faith but suicide


But that was not a definition - just an example.

Do you own a car? Don't you have faith it will start when you turn the ignition? How can anyone exist without faith?

Nubby's photo
Thu 01/29/09 03:19 PM


That being said - there isn't a single person walking this planet who isn't delusional, for I defy you to live your life without faith in the fact that you'll even get up in the morning.

Without faith - we would be a planet of walking, delusional paranoid zombies incapable of functioning on any level in society.


That is a load of crap, you can live your life without faith, and I do it daily. . .

Faith- something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Expect- To look forward to the probable occurrence or appearance of

I don't have faith I will wake up tomorrow, I expect that I will wake up tomorrow.
Faith in mankind is why all those scams work so well. . .


He is a visiting professor of philosophy at oxford.

no photo
Thu 01/29/09 04:12 PM



That being said - there isn't a single person walking this planet who isn't delusional, for I defy you to live your life without faith in the fact that you'll even get up in the morning.


"Eljay" you are describing depression ..to say you need faith to live your life and to get up in the morning means you have given up on life and this frame of mind falls not in the realm of faith but suicide


But that was not a definition - just an example.

Do you own a car? Don't you have faith it will start when you turn the ignition? How can anyone exist without faith?


"Eljay" it shouldn't matter if it was an example you were still describing depression about someone that needed faith just to get up in the morning ....

also why do you place your religious faith in technology such as a car starting ...isn't to do so is to blaspheme God....is God an auto mechanic that makes sure that only Christian cars run because they have faith ...

well I guess Christian cars don't have the "Free Will" not to work if they are broke

"Eljay" you are treating faith like witchcraft

Abracadabra's photo
Thu 01/29/09 04:23 PM
Is the Christian faith intellectual nonsense? Are Christians deluded?


Christianity has become a hate crime.

It's a cancer of humanity.

All it does is argue for bigotry.

Yes, it's intellectual nonsense, the proof is in the pudding.

Judism, Catholicism, Islam and the myriad of Paper Popes of Protestantism all arose from the very same folklore.

Let's face it. None of them have a clue what they are talking about.

It's one humongous religion that fell into an infinities of pieces because no one could understand what it was supposed to be about.

It's clearly a failed religion. There can be no doubt about it that it is not the word of any God.

I would personally label these dogmatic religions as hate crimes and have them abolished as such. Their history has proven their ungodliness beyond any shadow of a doubt.

TBRich's photo
Thu 01/29/09 04:32 PM
I really think the problem is with monotheism. If you believe in only one g-d and one way to reach him, then you tend to be harsher on other religions. Pagans and polytheistics don't really show as much "hatred" and aggressive behavior. I know that many Xians may feel that they do, because of some of the posts here, but I think they are more of a response to the oppression from Xianity in general.

Inkracer's photo
Thu 01/29/09 05:00 PM



That being said - there isn't a single person walking this planet who isn't delusional, for I defy you to live your life without faith in the fact that you'll even get up in the morning.

Without faith - we would be a planet of walking, delusional paranoid zombies incapable of functioning on any level in society.


That is a load of crap, you can live your life without faith, and I do it daily. . .

Faith- something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Expect- To look forward to the probable occurrence or appearance of

I don't have faith I will wake up tomorrow, I expect that I will wake up tomorrow.
Faith in mankind is why all those scams work so well. . .


If you think you live your life without faith - you're delusional.


Again, I don't have faith, at all.

I don't believe, with strong conviction, that I will get up, or that my car will start, or that someone will lie to me. . .

I look forward to the probable occurrence of my waking up, my car starting, or being lied to.

no photo
Thu 01/29/09 05:30 PM


I have faith that everything is as it is and is as we have manifested it to be, therefore, it is as it should be.

flowerforyou


Krimsa's photo
Thu 01/29/09 08:44 PM


That being said - there isn't a single person walking this planet who isn't delusional, for I defy you to live your life without faith in the fact that you'll even get up in the morning.

Without faith - we would be a planet of walking, delusional paranoid zombies incapable of functioning on any level in society.


That is a load of crap, you can live your life without faith, and I do it daily. . .

Faith- something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Expect- To look forward to the probable occurrence or appearance of

I don't have faith I will wake up tomorrow, I expect that I will wake up tomorrow.
Faith in mankind is why all those scams work so well. . .


Eljay I have to agree with Ink here. I don’t think you are quite clear on the definition of "faith" You are over reaching there a bit. Humans tend to expect certain occurrences to take place because they are accustomed to those things happening. One example would be the sun warming the earth tomorrow. That does not require "faith" because I have no reason to expect that the sun won’t be warming the earth tomorrow morning. Although in New England in January, it pretty much doesn’t matter.

Nubby's photo
Fri 01/30/09 06:04 AM

Is the Christian faith intellectual nonsense? Are Christians deluded?


Christianity has become a hate crime.

It's a cancer of humanity.

All it does is argue for bigotry.

Yes, it's intellectual nonsense, the proof is in the pudding.

Judism, Catholicism, Islam and the myriad of Paper Popes of Protestantism all arose from the very same folklore.

Let's face it. None of them have a clue what they are talking about.

It's one humongous religion that fell into an infinities of pieces because no one could understand what it was supposed to be about.

It's clearly a failed religion. There can be no doubt about it that it is not the word of any God.

I would personally label these dogmatic religions as hate crimes and have them abolished as such. Their history has proven their ungodliness beyond any shadow of a doubt.



What folklore are you referring to?
What about your posts, are they not hate crimes then. The only way to truly stay neutral is to keep your mouth shut. Your posts are hateful toward what I believe.

Nubby's photo
Fri 01/30/09 06:05 AM
I have not expressed any hate toward what you believe Krimsa, in fact I have agreed with you at times and changed my position.

Nubby's photo
Fri 01/30/09 08:19 AM


Is the Christian faith intellectual nonsense? Are Christians deluded?


sorry but Christian have not cornered the market on delusion ..all faiths no matter the religion or the demonination or the philosophy are delusional ....

faith is the practice of willingly placing oneself into a state of delusion




Ok

davidben1's photo
Fri 01/30/09 08:26 AM


Is the Christian faith intellectual nonsense? Are Christians deluded?


sorry but Christian have not cornered the market on delusion ..all faiths no matter the religion or the demonination or the philosophy are delusional ....

faith is the practice of willingly placing oneself into a state of delusion




yea funches, but it be only one that will itself to no delusion, having most only faith in itself, that make self led unto delsusion, by not allowing the voice of all others to be combined into one, that show what is not delusion???



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