and the same can be said for most of the bible.

Well you told me that my statement was incorrect yet you can not prove this...so.

Krimsa said:

I have already stated it as fact. You chose to quote me and claim that it is a fallacious statment. That burden is now on you to substantiate.

Eljay,

Clearly you're idea of pantheism is truly warped.

That is a cop out plain and simple. You stated that my assertion was a fallacy. I made a point of quoting myself to demonstrate the exact sentence that you were claiming was fallacious.

So, what’s the hold up here?

Why no, in fact one of the founders of creationism says so himself:
Even prominent creationists like Henry Morris and Duane Gish (who pretty much created scientific creationism) admit that creationism is not scientific in creationist literature. In Biblical Cosmology and Modern Science, Morris, while discussing catastrophism and the Noachic flood, says:

“We cannot verify this experimentally, of course, any more than any of the various other theories of catastrophism [e.g. Velikovsky], but we do not need experimental verification; God has recorded it in His Word, and that should be sufficient.”

This is a statement of religious faith, not a statement of scientific discovery.

Even more revealing, Duane Gish in Evolution? The Fossils Say No! writes:

“We do not know how the Creator created, [or] what processes He used, for He used processes which are not now operating anywhere in the natural universe. This is why we refer to creation as special creation. We cannot discover by scientific investigation anything about the creative processes used by the Creator.”

So, even leading creationists basically admit that creationism is not testable and clearly state that biblical revelation is the source (and “verification”) of their ideas. If Creationism is not considered scientific by the movement’s own leading figures, then how can anyone else be expected to take it seriously as a science?

Anyhow, I like the irony of the Church (one man in a robe) throwing people in jail for scientific heresy and now the chicken has come back to roost.

ELJAY



Hi doll




ok carry on.

What makes the people who disagree with Dr. Hovind's "Theories" right is scientific fact. And what would have really happened, had his "theories" actually happened.

Prove that statement.

Krimsa said:



I guess its another one of those "well known facts" like Hitler was not a Catholic.

The Supreme Court already ruled against Creationism for two reasons: 1. It is not accepted science 2. It is a veiled way to slip religion into the classroom. It would be ok to teach in philosophy, but it is not a science. Wait... wait, let me check my calendar... ok yeah it is 2009, not science.

Well lets start with the flood shall we? Modern geology, and its sub-disciplines of earth science, geochemistry, geophysics, glaciology, paleoclimatology, paleontology and other scientific disciplines utilize the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community. What are you talking about exactly and where are these actual "scientists" that are on board with Noah's Flood? I would like to do a little background checking on their academic qualifications. Im sure you dont mind.

Are these people are "real Christians"?

"There is a long history of the persecution of Jews by Christians, starting with the burning of synagogues in the 4th century, to numerous killings of Jews who would not convert to Christianity, to the extermination of Jewish communities in many European countries, all the way to a number of extermination camps during World War II in Yugoslavia, headed by a Franciscan Friar and run by Catholics, which were the equal of the German kilns of Auschwitz — killing about half a million people alone in this small country."

Also, Since people lie, actions of those people lie too. So, you really have no way of truly determining what the truth is.

It is all about what authority you decide to accept and believe. If you decide to accept and believe the Church authority who tells you that the Bible is the word and work of God then that is your choice.

The problem seems to be that not everyone accepts that authority, and the ones who do are put in a position to have to defend their authority.

Hence all the debates about the Bible.

Science just wants to learn the truth about things and when what they learn does not support the Bible, people get upset.

Science is not the enemy of the Bible. It does not seek to destroy religion. It seeks truth.

There have been plenty of examples given in multiple threads. It is not my job to bring them all nicely into one post for you to ignore anyway.

It's not what you think the bible said that makes/ doesn't make Hitler a Christian. What makes Hitler a Christian is Hitler's OWN words on his OWN beliefs. We have presented enough of Hitler's own words on here, to proof to a reasonable person(i.e. Not You) that Hitler thought of himself as a Christian.

Again, you use the passages that you want to use to define a Christian. Krimsa, myself, and others have brought up passages that disagree with you view. From what you keep posting, about your definition, it seems to me, that you definition of a Christian is someone who is without sin, but since human nature is not without sin, according to your definition, there is not a True believer on the planet.

I am curious if anyone can form a positive coherent Ontology for god.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmhVuOxuo_I&feature=rec-HM-rev-rn


What is god?

So, if "God" tells you to do something that society tells us is bad, then you are crazy, and not a "True" believer.

If "god" tells you to do something that society accepts as good, then you are a "True" Believer.



But, "God" has a plan for everyone. Who are you, a mere mortal of a man, to question the Grand Plan that "God" has for us all?



You tell us skeptics that we are picking and choosing what it is to be a Christian, yet you are doing the very same thing.

Now, you are putting words in my mouth. I never once stated that Hitler was a representative of Christians. All I have stated is that Hitler WAS A Christian.


What must you do to be saved?

Say the right things.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified. -- Matthew 12:37

Do the right things.
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life. -- John 5:29
For you render to each one according to his works. -- Psalm 62:12

I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. -- Jeremiah 17:10

When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. -- Ezekiel 18:27

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16.27

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. -- Matthew 25:34-36

Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. -- Romans 2:6, 13

For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. -- 2 Corinthians 5:10

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. -- 2 Corinthians 11:15

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. -- 1 Peter 1:17

I will give unto every one of you according to your works. -- Revelation 2:23

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. -- Revelation 20:12-13


Believe the right things.
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. -- Romans 3:28
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. -- Romans 5:1

A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. -- Galatians 2:16

For by grace are ye saved through faith. -- Ephesians 2:8


Do and believe the right things.
Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- James 2:17

Do the will of God.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. -- Matthew 7:21

Believe in Jesus.
Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. -- John 3:16
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life -- John 3:36

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. -- Acts 16:31


Be born again.
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. -- John 3:3

Hear the words of Jesus and believe in whoever sent him.
He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life. -- John 5:24

Be born of water and the spirit.
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. -- John 3:5

Be washed by the Holy Ghost.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. -- Titus 3:5

Be converted and become like a little child.
Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. -- Matthew 18:3

Believe and be baptized.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. -- Mark 16:16

Call upon the name of the Lord.
Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. -- Acts 2:21

Confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. -- Romans 10:9

Follow the commandments (at least some of them).
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. -- Matthew 19:17-19
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life. -- Revelation 22:14


Keep the commandments (at least some of them), give all your money to the poor, and follow Jesus.
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? ... Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
...thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.-- Luke 18:18-22

Keep the commandments and the faith of Jesus.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. -- Revelation 14:12

Endure to the end.
He that endureth to the end shall be saved. -- Matthew 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13

Wait until you die and then get baptized.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? -- 1 Corinthians 15:29

Don't judge other people.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. -- Matthew 7:1, Lk.6:37

Have lots of babies.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing. -- 1 Timothy 2:14-15

Don't defile yourself with women. (Be a virgin male.)
...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. -- Revelation 14:3-4

Be given by the Father and come to the Son.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. -- John 6:37

Be chosen (predestinated) by God.
For many are called, but few are chosen. -- Matthew 22:14
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.-- Romans 8:29-30

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. -- Romans 9:11

He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated us ... according to the good pleasure of his will. -- Ephesians 1:4-5


Be poor, not rich.
Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -- Matthew 19:23-24
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. -- Luke 6:24

Ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. -- James 5:1


Be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees.
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. -- Matthew 5:20

Eat Jesus' body and blood.
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. -- John 6:53-54

Just ask.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.-- Matthew 7:7-8

All you need is love.
Love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God. -- 1 John 4:7
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. -- Luke 10:26

Can you prove god exists?



Yes, I understood, and still understand, the bible. I also see it has nothing more than fictional stories made up to control man.



Science has already disproven many of the stories in the bible.



You realize that the only real "evidence" of Jesus is the bible, right? Also many religions(that predate Christianity) have a god story similar to the Jesus story.

Horus, an Egyptian God is one.



Science has already proven many things in the bible to be false, and one day, we will understand why medical "miracles" just happen. Just because we don't know why they happened, doesn't make them miracles.