And why do you have to take my words and change them all out of proportion to what I said? I made a suggestion. I willingly state that it needs working on, and that if in the end society does not agree with it then I can accept that.

Why do you have to sit there and claim that my proposal of making people step to the bat and choose to do something for the better of the community has anything at all to do with telling them how to spend their money, how many children to have, etc etc etc.

I ask now that you step aside and stop twisting my words and trying to claim I am saying something that I am not.

first let me apologize for something here. Somehow it appears to have come to the belief that what I proposed would be the final change nothing else being changed or anything proposal, and that's NOT what I am trying to say.
There are thousands of issues that need to be looked over if not done or even scrapped outright. This was just a suggestion to cover a couple areas.

Now on with what you suggested about Netherlands policy(ies). That would be a very good idea, except for one thing. People would then try to use that as a way to cancel all taxes, and then we would really have a major problem, as NOTHING would get done.

I agree that those who have the capability SHOULD hire out to others so everyone can work. But, should we demand how they spend their money? That is getting into individual freedoms again. Those who are non-skilled should be looking for the non-skilled work, until they have the skills necessarry for a specific job. Not complaining because they have to do something they don't like.


In the end it all boils down to personal values and morals. Sadly too many people don't think about the other person until they are forced to do so, and then complain because they have to.

And yet, this is how it is supposed to work even now. our main problem is we do not enforce what we have already decided would be the rules and laws of the nation. We do not vote out of office those who abuse their power, or don't do what we the people want done.

I could be wrong, but I think you Suze, were one of many, myself included, who stated that the majority of the people are not users, and lazy-good-for-nothings (my own words there). If htis is the case, then the many, out number the few, and those who would vote to make life less demanding and requiring, would be outnumbered by far by the ones who would want specific rules and guidelines, laws, in place.

For example, we can all agree for the most part, that a mass-murderer does not belong loose in society. We don't necessarily all agree on what to do with the person once they are in custody, but we do all agree that they need to be out of society for the good of society. The same issue applies. The MAJORITY of the society would agree on what is reasonable and what is not reasonable. And as has always been the case, if you can not abide by the majority decision, you have the freedom to move elsewhere. Society rules in the end. It is simply a matter of society, we the people, standing up for what we want and don't want.

disclaimer: I know parts of this sound like I am trying to rabble rouze, but I promise you I am not, lol. I do not wanna see anything but peace in the end, no matter how unlikely that is

There is a good question and answer all in one. why DO garbage men, and waiters, postal workers etc all need degrees to do their job when it is all unskilled labor? The problem here is it is already in affect. No, it isn't so widespread that every last job is this way, but trust me when I say I have done a fair bit of traveling across the good ole us of a over the years and it is getting that way fast. There are numerous places I can name, Michigan being one of them, where restaurants require their dishwasher to have a MINIMUM of two years college (also known as your associates degree), along with 8 years of experience. Garbage truck operators are being required to get a degree now in some places. I saw five gas stations, all different companies just last month that refused to hire a cashier/pump attendant if they did not have a minimum of five years experience in a gas station. This is all ridiculous folks. Every where you turn around, you have to have an associates or higher now, even for unskilled labor. This is why I suggested that you be required to continue on for two years of college in some way shape or form. a 2 year degree means nothing anymore; it is a stepping stone towards your bachelors. which reminds me, to be a seceratary atthe soial services office, you have to have a bachelors degree in social work and five years experience. That's in New York, Michigan AND Indiana. I only name these states as I have seen it myself in all three states. In order to answer the phone, schedule appointments, check a person in, and refer them to the right person, you have to have a bachelors degree and five years experience; and no these people do not do the actual social services job. They are just secerataries (no offense to other seceretaries meant).
And this is what we are allowing to happen. Yes we are allowing it to happen. And yuo ask me who will make the decisions on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable behavior? WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA will decide. It is US who have the power to put our politicians in office, and it is us who has the power to remove them in the end. If we all got together and actually stopped listenening to the politicians tell us what is and is not right, we would be able to put a person in office that we all agreed upon who would do what we wanted done.

So your answer is, WE will have the power to decide what is and is not acceptable contribution to the society.

oh you hush mskim! I don't need anything else going wrong, lol.

Oh chit, did I just hear a crash? <insert panicked and running parent emoticon>

No I do not feel I am better than anyone else, not even those lazy freeloaders I have described. I am human just like you and just like, oh, Hitler (sorry most BAD case example I could think of lol). I make my choices, and I live by them. But I also hold myself up to a higher morality, and don't expect something for nothing.

I want to take a moment to apologize to those who feel I was intentionally attacking them or others in another thread from this section (hence posting the apology here).

My intent was never to insult anyone, or make anyone feel less, and I hope you will accept this apology as the sincere wish that it is.


Daniel

That's just it, you missed completely what I said. I can not put my son into any of those are programs due to his issues. Rest assured this isn't me making the decision; it is his doctor, and social services both.

Like I said earlier, I am not trying to say JUST college or military. PLEASE go back and read over and you will see I have done so many times now.

First, "college" was a bad term. I should have said something along the lines of education, whether it be college, trade school, apprenticeship, etc. I have also conceded that there are many ways to be contributing to the community without immediately going on with your education.

My main point was and still is that the people who are NOT contributing need to stop being coddled, and given break after break after break. There comes a point when the community needs to recognize that someone is lazy and playing the system, and give them an ultimatum to shape up or ship out, whether that be to go into the military or leave the community, whatever. And the benefits need to STOP completely after so long. For those in my circumstances, thankfully there are other resources, that though they take time to tap into, are available and will remove you from welfare. And personally in my case, where I am a custodial parent of a special needs child, community service is a very valid option to help earn the assistance you get.

now to actually answer your question lol, I would not be upset about it at all. If you remember, I stated I am doing what I can to get back into school, already. I have also stated that if I could, I would go back into the military in a heart beat, so either or it wouldn't bother me, beecause I am already holding myself to those standards.

Thankfully it ISNT so cold that an extra blanket or two shuold be more than enough. It's just the fact that I can not use it now lol, and not sure when it will be back in line.

To answer Mo's first question, what I do to better the community right now, is volunteer at my church and around town helping people who need physical labor done and can not do it themselves. I am helping to renovate my church's fellowship hall, to bring it back up to the glory it should already be in.

Other than that, and anything else people need done, I am looking continually for an employer who will hire me knowing that I can only work Monday through Friday from 8am until 2:30pm, and have to be able to leave unexpectedly during those hours if my sons school calls, for an indefinite period of time, due to his health. he can not be put in any type of day care situation as he can not cope with it. He does have problems in school as well, which is why I need to be able to leave unexpectedly, and can not guaruntee when I come back.

As far as doing what I can to get out of this pit, I am working at getting enrolled in the local college next year, during school hours, probably half time to begin with, and working towards a counseling degree, and a ministry degree. This way when I am done, if I have to pick my son up from school, I will normally be able to take him right with me to work (no I would not be working out of a doctors office). I am also trying to start a radio station going on the internet, so as to bring in minimal income from sponsors, so I can hopefully get off of the assistance in the somewhat near future.

As you can see, I do not sit around telling people they should do this this this and that, and then do nothing myself. Although there are way too many people out there that do this. And before you ask, yes if I could get back in the military I would in a heartbeat.

And to risk sounding confrontational, though I don't mean to be, to "force randomized drug testing for welfare recipients" can be seen as a form of discrimination. Now don't get me wrong. I agree with you completely, that it should be done, and I would be first in line every day to pee in a cup, while I am receiving assistance. I am just trying to point out that no matter the reasoning behind it, ANYTHING can be taken as removal of freedom of choice, discrimination, etc. That is why I say that as a society we need to step up to the plate and determine what our standards are going to be, and actually enforce them. If my ideas are not part of the final decision, so be it, that's democracy in action by everyone voting on it. But something needs to be done, and something needs to be done about those who do abuse the system.

serious question here. My children don't have any kind of contact with drugs other than medication at home. But let's say your kindergarten age child is at school, and one of his older friends comes up to him on a day that the child is sad or feeling left out, then tells them, "here, try this it will make you feel better".
The child in question has had no contact concerning drugs or alcohol, and thus has no reason to worry or be concerned, because it is their friend who is suggesting it.

I am not saying that a 5 year old needs in depth lessons concerning this topic, but they do need something; and sadly too many parents do not talk with them other than to maybe say, "Don't do drugs; don't drink beer". A good suggestion was made to do so with an age appropriate book, and discussion about it afterwards. I think a signed agreement would be too much as well, although maybe a verbal agreement would be all right.

I just had the repairman in to look at the furnace (thankfully I rent so I don't have to pay anything for the furnace), and come to find out, it has a crack in it. The good news is it is being replaced, the bad news I can not run it at night due to leakage of fumes. It is probably going to be a couple weeks too before it gets replaced, which is going to mean a lot of very cold nights.

I understand what you are getting at here Suze, I really do. BUT, there comes a point when somebody (normally government yes) does have to step in and say, these are the choices you have. This is because we live in a community, and due to this, we are responsible to a certain degree in providing FOR the community. That is why people live in communities rather than off by themselves, because of the mutual benefits.

However, when so many people start living in the community, drawing off the community resources (welfare in this case), and not providing something in return for the services, whether it be cash, or labor, or goods, whatever, then the community fails, and everyone suffers.

We are seeing this now, for several reasons, and not just from people refusing to work (and for the record I am sure there are more people who ARE willing to work than are not).

When this happens, people need to have a wake up call so to speak, and to be given a set choice of what to do in order to better their lives and their community. And you can only give so many choices,and when they are all refused, what do you have left? Continue letting the person receive from the community and return nothing, or make them do something productive? In the very end it comes down to giving them the choice: Live by the community standards, and be productive, or leave the community.

What we need to start doing is figure out what our standards as a community are going to be, and start enforcing them, whether it is with my idea of bringing more emphases on the military choice, or something else.

But in the end, people need to start being more productive, and contributing to society or we are ALL going to lose everything.

very good point Winx, and I am glad someone thought to bring it up. Stay at home parents are a very needed resource in our communities, and definitely very productive.

yes I did refer to the question about communism. my suggestion in now way at all takes any freedom of choice away from a person. Yes, it adds a consequence to not being a productive member of society, but it does not take away anybody's choices of what to do. You still do not HAVE to go into the military. You can go to college/trade school/apprenticeship. You can be working on a farm, or owning your own business. These are just a few examples of what you can do to choose not going into the military.




Actually, I know quite a few people who have degrees who aren't working in their "field." For many, right now, it's the economy. For many, it's a choice. They found that what they trained for wasn't what made them happy so they do something else.

That's the beauty of this country, freedom of choice. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Who are we to tell anyone else what would make them happy? And if they aren't hurthing anyone, whose business is it? And, if everyone WAS college educated, who exactly would do those jobs that are necessary in this society that many/most "educated" people would feel were now beneath them?

And, again, who exactly pays for all this? College isn't free. (I realize this may have been addressed but again, I didn't read as I didn't want to get bogged into the negative?) If people are going to be forced into college, why should they have to pay for it? Of course, that would mean higher taxes.

And, Daniel, you didn't address the issue of communism? When the government starts deciding who does what, with no freedom of individual choice, that is one of the main components of communism. China does it. The USSR did it. And everyone was up in arms about it. Why is your proposal any different?

unless the sites rules have changed, it is against the site rules to ATTACK another person, or intentionally INSULT them. I have done neither.

yes, in the past it was legal for a judge to use their personal discretion and offer someone up in front of them a chance to go into the military in exchange for nothing on their record.

it waslater made illegal to do so, or so my understanding of it is, but it is a law that is overlooked, and some judges do still look the other way if someone suggests going into the military.

first let me thank you for doing what so many apparently have not, and reading everything I post.

in regards to what you have said about most states assistance being temporary, yes the most talked about ones are (like cash assistance). But what a lot of people do not know or realize, is that most states, when your 4 or 5 years (general estimate) of time runs out on the TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) states have introduced new programs that continue to give you said cash because you are no longer qualified for TANF.

I have been through the welfare system many times in many states, and so I can tell you from witnessing first hand how many people out there (women and men both) simply go through the motions of looking for work. Ina lot of places they outright brag about it, right in front of their counselors, because they know the counselors will not kick them to the curb.

In regards to not moving somewhere due to obligations, I must first say the only obligation having a child represents is finding a way to provide for that child(ren) no matter what it takes. In regards to a mortgage, if you are on welfare, and looking to be there for any length of time, you are probably gonne be foreclosed on anyway, as you do NOT receive enough assistance to pay your mortgage and your bills, etc.

What I would do in this case is talk to your mortgage owner, and get permission to put the place up for sale if you find a job elsewhere and have to move. This way you have the option, and it shows your creditor that you are looking at all aspects. Or maybe get permission to rent it out if you move for a new job.
In reagrds to the cost of moving as well, most welfare programs offer assistance if you are moving outside of your city or county due to job acceptance, so it is not as expensive as all that.
And I have to ask, but where are you getting the idea that someone is being punished? To the best of my knowledge no one has suggested punishing anyone.
And I agree with you that there are a lot of people out there who are honestly doing their level best. However, there is still way too many people out there that play the system, and do so intentionally because they know how to do it.

I am not saying my idea is perfect, nor am I saying it doesnt need work or adjustment. I would be foolish to think either. However, for those people I described above who willfully do nothing to be productivein society, wanting to receive everything for free, something like this needs to be looked at.

I apologize if you feel that I called you stupid, or implied it. However, not once have I ever called anyone here stupid, nor have I implied it. I HAVE outright asked if certain persons have received SPECIFIC education, and suggested that they did not. That does not in any way claim that that person is stupid, nor does it imply that.

Just for YOUR information, from the description yo gave of your English capabilities, it sounds as if you and I are fairly well balanced in that area. I am not going to sit here and dictate my accomplishments or capabilities however.