It doesnt matter what we think!!!!...amen brother

All these cases were blocked on juristiction issues. The Feds claim it
is a fed juristion, but they wont enforce the current laws. The Ststes
are trying to take care of their own, as a consequence. This alone
should underline your Unions power, unless you think they have more
power than City, and State governments.

God Bless The Minutemen........

Can I get an Amen.....

so you said it there the feds are trying to cover it up... i thought
that the higher up the chain you go the more they would do

AMEN Fanta I missed part of it been out working in the rain I see
Pissywillow promoted me to Jethro cool , I don't want to say anything
bad about yankees either what would we do without them

Willow, my prior post was an excerpt from a letter to the editor of a
California newspaper which would not publish it. The husband of the
woman who wrote the letter decided to send it via email and it is
currently circulating around the USA.

To me it's the 'illegal', and the fact that our laws are not being
inforced....not Mexicans that is wrong. I live in a small town in Ms.,
there are quite a few Mexicans here and just like all the the rest of
us...most are good people. We have one policeman, he came from Mexico
and is a fine man, and if you ask him, he will proudly tell you that he
is a citizen of the USA. There is a family, came here from Mexico, they
haved joined the church where I am a member. Never hear them say that
they are Mexican-americans. They are citizens of the USA.
We may have a few illegals, I don't know...if we do they should be dealt
with according to the law. Why have laws if we arn't going to enforce
them? If we are allowed pick and choose the laws we want to obey, why
waste money on the INS and the justice system?
It's not just jobs that we are losing. Talk to some California
teachers...listen to what they say is happening in the schools.

Peace...

good posts olejeb. I read what you posted, and my studies on the matter
found the same results and more. The immigrants who came through ellis
island, came during a time in our history, needed skilled industrial
laborers from Europe. It was during the Industrial Revolution, when our
country could handle and afford the population growth. The needs out
weighed the end, and it was done through a control point, Ellis Island,
where they were documented and explained the rules. They were coming
under a open, and legal immigration policy, and wanted to be
appreciative and patriotic Americans. They still had to go through the
process and take a test to become Citizens. That is why they learned
English, and did so with enthusiasm. Their children served, and died
patrioticly in several wars that helped define America. The illegals
coming here today are offered 4 yrs in the armed forces, automatic
citizenship. While there are some taking the government up on this
oppurtunity, the majority of them do not. We do not have an open door
immigration policy today, although 17% of the current US population is
an unprecedented generous amount, and they still come. We are not in the
middle of the Industrial Revolution. in fact the exact opposite. Our
Industries are going to Southern, and middle America, and being given
tax breaks to do so, (NAFTA), and they still come. In the early 1900's
1911 or 1921. congress did a study, The Dillingham Report, it was
presented to Congress, and Ellis Island was closed. The country it was
determined had reched a limit on open immigration and the ability of
resources to accomodate them. The current laws concerning immigration
were established and adjusted in terms of the number allowed,(ie-17%
last year), a very generous number if you ask me. After this pay scales
and living standards in the US increased steadily for many generations.
Isnt that why we work, to increase our living standards, and produce a
better future for the generations that follow. I do not ask for more
laws concerning immigration, nor am I prejudice towards Mexicans, or
Guatamalans, or any of the other 11 million illegal immigrants, I just
realize that it needs to stop when we are asked to work for lower pay,
or not work at all.

Fanta,

I totally get the personnal and legitimate motives for your arguments:
working hard for improved wages not lower wages.

But to expect automatic better wages for decent work in the commodity
segments of services or products, in any Western World Countries today,
is pure Utopia.

Both commodity services provision, and products making in the Western
World are on the respirator. And respective governements are fighting
with every possible means to have these 'commodity dinosaurs' survive a
little longer.

The reason our commodity factories must try to survive a little longer,
is because we (Western world nations) are late in moving towards a full
fledge Knowledge Economy. Making Stuff still, but not commodity.

It is a revolution: It's a revolution to MOVE TO a KNOWLEDGE BASED
ECONOMY! (nothing to do with the Industrial revolution: the means that
served us in the industrial revolution are of no use here!).

As they're ramping-up very rapidly, Chinese and India ,70 cents an hour
based commodity emerging King and Queen, are not leaving any room for
our Western economy commodity based factories. That is not just the US,
it's the Western World as a whole.

So buy some time to keep the economy pumping in this hybrid model of
dying commodity and emerging knowledge.

That requires major supply of VERY LOW WAGE workers to keep pumping
competitive commodity products in world market context for a little
while longer.

Keep our commodity factories open with low wages, and OH yes, find a way
to pay some form of welfare to all these high wages 'out-of-work' legals
that have not, can not, or will not recycle themselves into the
knowledge industry (not a judgment, jut a fact).

Now don't shoot the messenger, this is world economics 101!

While there are several categories of illegals: short-term long-term
varying from totally undocumented, to falsely documented to
conditionnally documented, etc., their wages vary from lowest to highest
based on the absence, or nature of documentation.

The most desirable illegal to your economy has been the falsely
documented factory, construction, or food and hospitality industries
workers (fastest growing 'tolerated' segment. Given their false ID
documents, they are among the lowest paid. But this false ID serves an
employer in payrolling the illegal in his system (won't get caught for
hiring illegals). This is a one way contribution from the illegal to
social security, without any possibility of ever collecting.

It's perverse, but that's the way it is. These contributions, since the
early 80's, have amounted to more than 200billions in the coffers of
social security, and keep pumping more than 7 billion a year to SS, and
1,5billion to health and education.

So low wages keep otherwise obsolete services and factories alive, and
pump taxes. These same illegal wages contribute 'one-way' to SS.

So between the motives to keep your economy pumping, and your motive for
a legitimate better wage, which of the two should we expect your
governement to address???

Enforce immigration laws, and make the whole process legal??? I don't
think so!!! While virtuous and 'right', it would condemn your economy to
hell!!!

I for one believe the future holds great promises. But they have
nothing to do with the promises of the past.

P.S.: By the way, I personnally have had to deal with huge adjustements
in my businesses over the past decades, due to this radical change in
the economic, social and political World scene. What worked real well
for me in the past, would cease to be effective. You learn to adapt
real quick in front of changes that can't be stopped. ... or you
abdict!!!

should have the feds go through your business first lol bet that would
hit the pocket book

Viol, I'm sure you are right, "'it's the economy stupid'", I would sum
it up with one word 'greed'. 'Never mind the law, the ends justify the
means'...so now we are justifying breaking the law.
I am retired, living on a fixed income, enjoying my freedom as a legal
U.S. citizen. I stand and salute the flag of the U.S.A. when I hear the
National Anthem. I pledge alliegence to that flag and to this country.
It is evident that the illegal immigrants' alliegence is to Mexico or
wherever they come from.
There is a Mexican owned store nearby, painted with the colors of the
Mexican flag.

I have nothing at all against Mexicans or any other nationalities. But I
do believe in law and order, and I think the law should be enforced. And
if it brings on a depression, we got thru the big one...we'll get thru
the next one.
Peace

OleJeb, concentrated wisdom indeed!

"...Viol, I'm sure you are right, "'it's the economy stupid'", I would
sum it up with one word 'greed'. 'Never mind the law, the ends justify
the means'...so now we are justifying breaking the law.
... I do believe in law and order, and I think the law should be
enforced. And if it brings on a depression, we got thru the big
one...we'll get thru the next one. Peace."

Right in line with your statements, when greed runs the show, and the
means justify the ends;
... laws become simple accessories that can be bent,
... principles and values are only good if they work to your advantage.
... and LIBERTY is no longer a planetary human rigtht that we should
cultivate for all, it becomes an Egocentric and individualistic due!

Whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not, whether we
feel it is unjust or unfair, there are irreversible downward pressures
on costs throughout the Western World. And that includes wages (yes
fatcat owners, but blue and white collar workers too!!!).

As you put it very well OleJeb, the sooner we GET BACK to law and order
for all, and world wide LIBERTY, which sometimes, as you point out, may
involve SACRIFICIAL ADJUSTMENTS, the healthier and better off we will
all be.

Denying relatlity only prolongs the suffering.

Was curious as to why this was in the religious chat area...

The path our leaders have taken us over the last two decades have lead
us to where we are now, Voil. The stall tactic of new immigration
policies is a continuation of the same, You are right it wont be an easy
correction, but one well worth it. The lobbyist in Washington are to
fault for this, and who do the lobbyist represent? the major
corporations who know that if they put 10 million in the pockets of
politicians they will receive 50 million in profits to put in their own
pockets. To say that we have not tech'ed up is bull****. We are the most
technological society on the face of the earth. India and the other
countries you spoke of are not even 1st world countries. .70 cents an
hour is why the corporations move there and that is, like jeb said due
to greed and their long term goal of creating a global market. Without
the US there is no global market. We have the largest market for goods
of any kind, in the world, due to our standard of living. we have fought
hard to maintain this high standard of living for generations, and Im
not planning on rolling over while the government and corporations work
to take it away, for their own profits. There are many things that can
be done, but not without the politicians and lobbyist accepting their
role as our leaders, instead of looking out for their own profits. The
tariffs that were lifted in the 80's enabled Japan and others to
transport their products over seas and sell them cheaper than American
companies, but the American companies are still required to pay huge
tariffs to sell their products in other countries markets. This could be
corrected, and would make a huge difference. The big three just
solicited Bush for these compromises and were turned down flatly, less
than 2 months ago.
Do you expect me and millions of other Americans to idly sit back while
the gap between the haves and have nots widens, and believe it is in our
best interests? Not me, wont do it, wont believe it is in our best
interests. Never, if it kills me I will fight to right the wrongs
imposed upon us by the haves.. That is the American way..

We as Americans are badly in need of good leadership. The professional
Politician will be the downfall of this country, and when we fall the
worlds economy will be dealt a huge blow. Effecting everyone in the
world. Do you agree or disaggree with this statement?
We need leadership that will look at the future not at their pocket
books and bank accounts. A True leader, one that will take the inherent
American initiative and direct it to solving our energy problems and
reunite the people.
I listened yesterday to the media tell presidential candidate Huckabee
that he did not have enough money to become president. Where is this
money to come from? From the corporations who donate millions every 4
yrs to presidential candidates, that's where. The way they said it and I
take it is, if Gov. Huckabee does not jump into the lobbyist's pocket
then they wont line his and he will never be president. This is a major
problem in our political system. One that needs to be addressed ASAP,
before we can do anything for our selves. Without correcting this
problem the hopes of the people are very dismal indeed. There are some
very good ideas floating about that can address this problem, but we the
people must learn to speak as one voice. Then we can get good leadership
again, and mobilize this great country to combine and solve problems
like alternative fuels and education needs. There are many more, but
first we need a true leader of the people, not of the corp.. If not we
will fall and then you will see how it is the rest of the world that is
dependent on us, and not the other way around.

We gathered to gather and beat the Nazi's. We gathered together and beat
the Japanese. We gathered together and put a man on the moon.
The Germans had the best war machine in the world, we built better, The
Japanese had the Zero, we built better and whooped their asses. We are
America, and we have the know how. I truly believe we can accomplish
anything the world throws at us, and we can beat the internal threats we
face today. Threats thrown on us by our own greedy Politicians and
CEO's.
We did it without Mexico's help before and I dont think we need it now.
Where were they when America, and the rest of the world battled tyranny
in Europe during WWII???????????????
I challenge someone, anyone to name one single battle they engaged their
forces in during this global conflict...
Just one, thats all. One...

Fanta,

"... To say that we have not tech'ed up is bull****. We are the most
technological society on the face of the earth."

No one ever contested the latter, but that doesn't mean your GNP is free
of low-tech commodity manufacturing and services. It is still a very
significant part of your GNP, and is extremely vulnerable to emerging
economies. (same for other Western Nations)

As for the former, I haven't said 'we haven't tech'ed up!'.
I said the transition to a (high-tech, value-added) knowledge based
'economy', from the (low-tech, commodity) industrial based economy, was
far from completed. That your 'standard of living' still depended way
too much on a GNP made up of commodity low-tech industrial products that
can't compete against India and China, among other emerging economies.
That those low-low 'Illegal Mexicans' wages, are keeping this segment of
your economy alive, where it would otherwise be defunct!

India and the other countries you spoke of are not even 1st world
countries.
I never implied otherwise! India is a fast paced emerging economy, and
competing for our 'low-tech' commodities in communications: call
centers, and customer service centers of all grades,
... and so-called 'low-high-tech' industries: sofware coding, and
versioning re-writes, code development, and consumer electronic products
of all sorts.

"... .70 cents an hour is why the corporations move there and that is,
like jeb said due to greed and their long term goal of creating a global
market. "
Greed goes both ways Fanta. It's not just American companies setting-up
shop in China, but American 'consumers' loving to shop for those
'low-low-low' chinese prices at their beloved local Wall-Marts.
Wall-Mart's chinese products procurement (whether from chinese american
fact. or straight chinese fact.) amounts for more than 65% of all their
purchases. That's a lot of American JOBS right there! But what are you
going to do! Greed is a strong mover! Even when it comes back to bite
you up the 'sitting gear'!!! That's ties-up nicely with our complacency
conversation Fanta.


As for the last paragraph you wrote, I salute your resolve. That could
be a strong rallying cry to start turning things around!!! And the
Metaphorical Guns would certainly be aimed at the right target this
time!

But like any war, and you know that domain a lot better than I Fanta,
you've got to be ready and willing to sacrifice some on the battlefield
now, in order to win some later!

Here's to you Fanta!

Well thank you.
The other part, true Americans do put their selves out of jobs by buying
foreign products. Myth is what mostly causes this, Toyota does not
produce a higher quality Auto than the big three. They never have, the
gas crunch in the 70's did catch the big three off guard though, and
people went with the better gas mileage, not for quality. Now, the
unbalanced tariffs, and the myth generates the lop-sided sales. Did you
know, ( I just learned a month ago). that Chevrolet produces more models
of vehicles than any other manufacturer, that get over 30 mpg. People
still think Toyota does. The quality of American cars has went down to
the quality level of foreign manufacturers due to the price competition
created when the gov dropped the tariffs in the 80's. People still think
that Toyota produces a higher quality product. Not true, they never did,
but Americans continue to buy these products, putting thousands of their
fellow Americans out of work. I still think we can beat this with
legislation and education. Our professional politicians just keep
representing the business of business instead of representing the
people. I repeat, this must stop, and it should start by prosecuting the
politicians who violate the oath's they take, with hand on bible, to
uphold the constitution and the laws of the United States of America.
One of which is the illegal immigration laws. They should uphold the
laws and if they want change them, then change the law first before
breaking it, and quit allowing their rich friends to break it. Its kinda
like if you don't love your spouse then divorce them first before
sleeping with everyone else in town>>>

How many of you actualy are out there working with these illegals? How
many have seen the drugs shipped into this country by the illegals? How
many have seen 30 mexicans housed in 1 small house? How many of you have
had family members and friends stabbed or shot by illegal mexicans. Oh
yes and the quality of their work? pffffffft No, the money they make is
not put back into the economy..it's send back home! Yes there are a few
exceptions but not enough to make up for what they cost us!

But, it's our fault that they were brought here,
our younger generation refuse to do the work the older generation always
done...so farmers were left with no choice but to hire migrants.

"Just get over
yourselves and let others get a piece of this pie that almost everyone
here has worked so hard for. "

Here is my honest opinion of that statement Rain. STFU and get the hell
out of our country. I do NOT believe in giving every one who is coming
into the country everything they ask for and want (no money for a
business is not a basic need; neither is 95% ofe verything else given
to immigrants).
If you come in AS A LEGAL IMMIGRANT you hsould have to follow the same
guidelines and receive the same assistance that those of us born here
already receive. NOTHING MORE!
I, as an example, can not receive money as a grant to start my own
business because I am not an immigrant and my credit history is poor.
Yet someone coming into the country who is further in debt than I will
ever be, was not born here, is given a grant to open their own business,
That is not right. That is discriminatory. Yesa I DO have issues with
both immigrants and illegal immigrants. America has a lot of dirty
laundry that needs cleaning (some ofit will need to be burned I am sure)
and before we give one more penny to some else to come live here, we
need to do that laundry and get it takem care of.

sorry for the anger friends and family, but the issue of "illegal
aliens" and "shuttingup and letting people live here for nothing, is one
thing that really gets my goat going.
I can not stand such ignorance and with my personal history it really
offends me when someone terlls me I need to shut up and give everything
over to those that do nt want to at least follow the rules and laws in
order to become legal citizens. Especially when they dont want to do so
because they do not want to pay taxes.