MONEY (the economics) DRIVES EVERYTHING!!!

The money equation could start explaining the whys of illegal
immigration into the US, helping to direct our actions to the cause(WA),
vs the symptom ('Illegals') of the problem. It might be as simple as
this:

Add: Widespread abject poverty and starvation in Mexico after US
corporations relocated their cheap-labor plants from the US-Mexico
border to Asia, plunging millions of low-wage earning Mexicans into
poverty (living near teh border because the pants were there).

Add: An extremely porous, under-enforced US-Mexico border. Which WA has
no intention of enforcing!

Add: LOW-wage pressures on the 'commodity' segment of your US GNP, and
US employers anxious to keep their commodity farms or manufacturing
business 'open', for more profits, and willing to exploit the poverty
and fears of illegal immigrants to do so, with the full collaboration of
your government.

Add: The federal government anxious to curry favor with , and garner
votes from, business owners and the Hispanic community...thus, willing
to under-enforce borders and immigrations laws, and ignore illegal
hiring by employers.

Add: In the late '80's, your SSA had tagged at 189billion$, the
correllation between 'illegals' (contribute but never collect), and
employers SSA contributions. Today, SSA has become dependent on taking
in $7 billion annually of contributions from illegal immigrant workers
who will never receive benefits from the system.


EQUALS: Millions of illegal immigrants working for low wages and in poor
working conditions, grateful for "scraps to fall from the US table of
prosperity," per Dr. Groody.

EQUALS: Wealthier US businesses, and a much-richer Social Security
Administration, neither which reimburse local and state authorities and
taxpayers for the costs (education, health care, law enforcement and
more) associated with illegal immigrants.

EQUALS: And a very angry US citizenry, who vilify immigrants for being
here, rather than blaming the business owners who hire and exploit them,
the US government which lets them enter the US and profits greatly from
them, and the Mexican government which is happy to see them immigrate
out of their country.

"Our nation virtually posts two sign on its southern border: 'Help
Wanted: Inquire Within' and 'Do Not Trespass," says Pastor Robin Hoover
of Humane Borders.

"Without the help of immigrant labor, the US economy would virtually
collapse. We want and need cheap immigrant labor; in order for it to be
that cheap it must be 'illegal', but we do not want the immigrants."

" I feel that the only reason "mainstream" Americans have a
problem with it is because we (and when I say we, I mean my fellow
Latinos and Hispanics) are brown. I can't say it much simpler than that.
I doubt this would be an issue if swarms of Europeans were coming here
illegally. "

la you need to be careful of what you type. I for one do take offense
at the above quote. In it you are accusing me of being racist, and I
will not tolerate the lible. Is this understood?
As I have stated several times, I ave no problem with anyone coming to
this country LEGALLY, getting a visa/passport or work permit whatever yo
want to call it and or applying for citizenship. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH
PEOPLE COMING OVER HERE (OF ANY RACE) ILLEGALLY AND NOT GETTING THE
PROPER PERMITS!!!!!

And I highly reccomend you stop and think before you post on here again
or anywhere for that mater, and phrase yourself carefully, cause as I
said I will not accept being accused of racism, bigotry, whatever. I
WILL report you to mike and van if it happens again.

all of you calm down. this is just a site to express ourselves. everyone
has a right to their own opinion. noone is trying to label anyone, well
i am not for sure. why don't we focus on how to solve the problem,
instead of what is causing it? what can be done to help the people that
come to the good old USA looking for a better life or whatever their
reasons? what can be done to solve the hunger problem, the homeless
problem, the humungous drug problem, and any other problems i failed to
mention that need being brought to light. Jsh can be a place of to
explore ideas, express, and maybe come up with solutions.

Agree with 'Duffy', but we must deal with some ceaning-up business firs.

With all due respect Daniel, go for a cold shower!

I for one acknowledge a certain sensitivity and suceptibility in your
character, and that cna be good. But you need to keep it in check
please!

Let me be clear Daniel:
You’re unjustifiably intimidating someone, based on a totally UNFOUNDED
AND IMAGINED personal accusation of your fabrication.

There is not a trace of a personal attack in ‘La_Esperanza’ thread.
She starts with ‘…I feel (opinion not accusation)...’ and never
mentions your name. If you hear your name in "'mainstream' Americans",
that's the suceptability thing!

Intimidating others Daniel, THAT IS NOT NICE!!! I bet you if you
apologized to ‘La_Esperanza’, your fellow citizen with the same right
as you to her opinion, ON THIS POST ESPECIALLY, it would make it all
‘good’ again!

Intimidation is not acceptable. Not towards you Daniel, and not
towards anyone visiting these posts!

Hope you hear this in the right spirit, and trust my best intentions.

yes she said in her opinion. However that alone does not excuse how she
phrased the entire thing. And she intentionally phrased it to say that
the only reason there is a problem is that "mainstream americans" have a
problem with hte color of the skin. There were naynumber of ways she
couls have phrased it but she chose that way, and considering as I
consider myself a "mainstream American" then I consider it spoken in my
direction as well as others.

Andkeep in mind I am speaking also from experience with Equal
Opportunity a nd discrimination issues as I use to be a company
representative for such issues whil ein the army. I had to attend
several government classes on the subject yearly in order to remain a
representative.

Also, I did not attack la, I responded to her thread, giving her my
opinion and informing her that I found it offensive and asking her to
phrase herself differently in the future. Maybe I could have done so a
little differently, maybe not. I wil lsay now however, that I did find
it offensive, and sk that you (la) be more carful in how you phrase
yourself in the future.
You have the right toyouropinion, and you have the right to free speach
as long as the speach you use is not discriminating or slanderish (libel
in case of written word) in nature.
ThankYou.

with all the due respect you should move ur comments on this subject
over to current events there is a minuteman thread there u can post ur
opinions on they want us to take these comments out of the religion
section because of the seriousness of them an what is being said aboout
it on both sides i can be respectful of this do what u will but they
asked nicely.

Voil many of the big corporations and plants here in my town have packed
up and moved south of the border...to mexico leaving many LEGAL
AMERICANS UNEMPLOYED.

SSA is almost bankrupt thanks to illegals obtaining fake IDs and getting
benefits I PAID INTO for 25 YEARS.

As a "mainstream american WOMAN" i dont care what color the skin is its
still a mans world in many professions but Equal opportunity now goes to
your latino and mexican friends via those lower paid JOBS stolen from
LEGAL AMERICAN WORKERS.
Illegal is ciminal.

La Esperanzo, and others who think the war against illegal immigration
is race related, and for those who feel the need to defend the illegals
because the feel a racial connection:

In the case of the Avenues gang, an informant told the FBI members had
received an order from the Mexican Mafia prison gang to kill all blacks
on sight in their mainly Hispanic neighborhood. Leading up to Wilson's
murder, members of the Avenues terrorized other blacks, shooting a
15-year-old boy on a bike, pistol-whipping a jogger and drawing outlines
of human bodies in a black family's driveway, according to news reports.

Gang feuds were historically intra-racial rather than interracial. But
that situation began to change with the heavy influx of Hispanics in
some previously predominantly black neighborhoods.

The full story can be found-
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51644
Here is your race connection.. Look yourself...

Daniel,

If someone were to write intimidating or 'threatening' (I'll report you
if...!) about you for example, I would write in your defense that
intimidation and threats are unacceptable on forums such as the ones we
participate in here. The other side of any position sould always be
welcomed. Intimidation and threats simply shut out any chance of moving
the debate to higher levels of understanding of the issues and possible
solutions, by telling those whom hold different opinionss they are not
welcomed. Not the purpose of OPEN MINDED EXCHANGES!!!

You keep justifying your accusations and your subsequent words of
intimidation and threat towards 'La_Esperanza'. There is NO JUSTIFIABLE
BASIS for your accusations, which make your intimidating and threatening
comments TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

You wrote in your second message on this:

"... You have the right to your opinion, and you have the right to free
speach...
... as long as the speach you use is not discriminating
... or slanderish (libel in case of written word) in nature."

It is pure distortion on your part to suggest that 'La...'s message is
'discriminatory' in nature Daniel.

This post is called 'Illegal MEXICANS': that is a discriminatory
statement if i've ever heard one. And please read the threads slowly,
there is no lack of expansive 'discriminatory' language towards your
fellow Mexicans with which you haven't found offence.

As for your slandering and libel suggestions, it is pure hallucination.
You must retract such horrendously misplaced comments.

'La_Eaperanza' expressed the other side of the coin on this debate.
You don't have to agree with her oppinion. But to act as a 'KEYSTONE
COP', and pulling a 'schoolyard bully' number of intimidation and threat
towards a very well written and sincere message from the other side of
the coin is again, UNACCEPTABLE.

Debating, is first and foremost having room for differing points of
view, and coutering with 'intelligent arguments'. Intimidation and
threats are a sign of abdication, an inability to come up with an
intelligent couter argument.


Again, Daniel, in the best of spirit, receive my invitation to clean
this up, and apologize, or address 'La_Esperanza' with an equally well
balanced counter argument to her thread.

actually Daniel just needs to get laid ....reallyyyyyyyy soon ...and
then a cold shower

now there's a spiritual turn, eh?

LMAO!

maybe now the topic belongs in the religious forum?

hehehehehe

leave the illegal aliens alone, and move on to solving world problems
like hunger, drugs, and war.

Without law there is chaos.

The executive branch of Government makes sure that the laws of the
United States are obeyed. The President of the United States is the head
of the executive branch of government. This branch is very large so the
President gets help from the Vice President, department heads (Cabinet
members), and heads of independent agencies.

Mr. President, enforce the laws!!!

bl8ant, EmotionalTurbulance,

Where have you been?!?!?


These low flying lopsided posts need you badly!!!


Thanks for showing up!!!

Are they helping our economy, ask your self that the next time you buy
your kid a happy meal, if it was,nt for the illegals you could,nt afford
it.

I didnt have time to read through all the responses to this topic but
wanted to throw in my two cents before I have to go ..... I know several
people who have worked in factories where illegal mexicans worked and
"took" jobs but these illegal mexicans worked there asses off and
expected less for it and were twice as grateful as fat lazy americans
who want more money for a sloppy job .
Also I worked for a large communication company doing technical support
but lost my job when ALL there technical support was outsourced to
overseas companies . The thing about this is I cant really blame the
company . Overseas help desks had much higher efficiency and customer
satisfaction scores than american desks and were willing to do the job
for less money .
Americans take everything for granted and tend to just expect things .
These "illegals" and overseas workers know what it is to be without and
are willing to work hard at anything they do to have something .

yeah, i'm not reading it all, either...maybe when i have some time.

i have a few points, and then i'm off to bed.

first, our economy NEEDS these people, legal or otherwise. they
purchase goods, provide good labor, and pay into our social security
system...they also generate quite a bit of tax revenue.

second...what makes us think we are "entitled" to america...just because
we were born here? we don't "own" the earth.

third...if we take the premise that they are "illegal"...then can we
puh-lease get rid of all the dope-smokers and addicts, too?
cause...they are ALSO illegal. how many of you can truly say you never
break a law? ever?

i've hired many illegal workers over the years, and most of them were
the best damned workers i ever had. and no, i didn't pay them under the
table...they had fake social security cards. would never have known
they were fake...they were pretty high quality. these guys did double
the work, were extremely grateful and reliable...and an absolute blast
to work with.

not being citizens, they lack some of our protections...one
sixteen-year-old girl that worked for me, daniella hernandez...owed
money to someone who was harassing her. rather than chance being
deported, she didn't report the situation. he raped her, then shot her
three times in the head.

damned skippy, i'd rather pay someone who is reliable and a hard
worker...and loyal. i left that job a few years ago, but those guys are
still my friends, and they are some first-rate people.

GREAT PIECE 'LULU' !!!

The Jobs in the U.S. are one of the most sought after resorces in the world!