adj, the problem is that enforcement was a joke, the people bringing the aliens in were citizens here, paying for cheap labor to be brought into the states. Not enforcing and promoting them to come here is what got this to be what it is today. Some of the aliens are here because of the efforts of some very powerful people in our country. This takes the blame off the alien and places it back at home. Enforcement is key and addressing the situation of each family that is here is the next step. I agree, that the illegals who are criminals and bad seeds should be immediately deported but the others who may be here because of one of our citizens bringing them here for the cheap labor is another story. We are dealing with humans here not animals and each family or person needs that consideration before we lump them all into one catagory and make a rash judgement.

But I will say it again this kind of propaganda is racially motivated, hatemongers and fearmongers trying to get the masses fired up over issues not as severe as painted.

whether it is propaganda or not is irrelevant

who brought them in is only relevant as to the prosecution
of those that brought them in

as YOU said enforce the laws on the books

those laws saw if here illegally you must submit to
ins file for immegration or leave

and the limit for those granted legality is fifty
as posted above

you are the only one making this an issue of race

race has nothing to do with it

i do not care where the illegal came from

i do not care what race they are

all that matters is the status of their being here

if legal cool

if not then they need to submit to the law

the law needs to evaluate the case if room for amnesty
is available

if not then they need to be removed from the country per

the laws on the books


----------------

using your logic if someone was to illegally murder a loved
of yours and did not get caught in 10 years

then the law was not enforced at the time

and thus they do not have to be punished for the event

yes i said event cause using your logic it is not a crime anymore

and for the record i am against anyone murdering anyone

Sooooo, what your saying is traffic violators should get the chair as all crimes are punishable by death right???? Come on the punishment fits the crime. These people for the most part have hurt noone. Not saying there are not criminals in the bunch because all races and backgrounds have criminals but for the majoprity who are not criminals other than illegal status. You are buying into the racist mentality of them being less than human at some level and that is wrong. You cannot make a human into an expendable animal and make it right.

Dragoness, please explain:

How a person can be branded a "racist" when they're in favor of allowing LEGAL immigrants into America, and NOT allowing ILLEGAL immigrants into America.

Please:

No insults.
No using the term "propaganda".
No dancing around my question. Please be direct.

Good luck to you.

so you missed this one hhhmmmmmmmmmmm


Thu 11/15/07 09:21 PM
Underground Economy Growing as Illegal Immigrants Head to New States, More Jobs
By Angie Wagner, The Associated Press, December 3, 2005
Illegal immigrants are gaining a larger share of the job market and are spreading beyond traditional immigrant states like California, Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois and New Jersey, according to this article.
More illegals are moving to states like Utah, Washington, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Georgia and the Dakotas because of the increasing number of companies eager for cheap labor.
Vernon Briggs, a Cornell University labor economics professor, is quoted as saying: "The toleration of illegal immigration undermines all of our labor. It rips at the social fabric. It's a race to the bottom. The one who plays by the rules is penalized. It becomes a system that feeds on itself. It just goes on and on and on."
According to the Pew Hispanic Center, a research institute, the service sector employs the most illegal immigrants with 33 percent, followed by the construction industry, production and food processing and farming. The hotel and restaurant businesses and construction are the big employers. Pew estimates that more than 1 of every 4 drywall installers and landscape workers are illegal; about 1 in 5 workers in meat and poultry packing are illegal, as are about 1 in 6 in the leisure and hospitality industry or construction.
Pew estimates that the average illegal immigrant family makes $27,400 -- more than 40 percent below the legal immigrant or native family income of about $47,700.
John Keeley, spokesman for the Center for Immigration Studies, is quoted as saying: "We're seeing the wage bases in these industries erode simply because there is a glut of low-skill labor flooding the low-skill market. The business community has become addicted to it. It's a way for them to keep their business costs down."
More illegal workers do dangerous work and exploited, this article says. A 2004 Associated Press investigation found that Mexican workers are 80 percent more likely to die on the job than are native-born workers.

http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/east_asia_pacific/chinese_human_smuggling/smuggling_in_the_press/impact_on_governments.html

----------------------

and no one is saying the illegals should be put to death

unless you are

they are breaking the law

it does not matter when they got here

if they are here illegally today they are breaking the law today

Knox, in answer to your question, first let me verify the post used to start this subject was proven false by me and others making it propaganda, therefore, as I address the propaganda being racially motivated and of a fearmongering, hatemongering background does not make the poster or postees racists. They are sadly buying into a racial propaganda sweep that is meant to fire up people in hopes for more backing and action to appease their sick agenda. If I referred to anyone as a racist directly that is not what was meant.

Now in order to be non-illegal alien and not be racist, one has to consider the humanity of the aliens. Do not paint them as unhuman and animals. They are humans and have committed a crime in this country. A crime of which they have been allowed to continue life here for many years and make a life here for many years due to non enforcement of the laws. That said, the humans of which we are referring to as aliens are still humans, not deserving of having their dignity and rights as a human removed. Yes, they are here, through our own fault for non enforcement and promotion of employers who are enjoying the new slave labor. Their crimes is a victimless crime, one of economy and human desire to live. Putting that into consideration first and foremost, one must determine how to handle the problems.

Racists paint their victims with fearmongering faces of evil and treachery to get others to feel fear and act out of fear. To make up a list as the one used on this post, the inventor of this list is a hatemonger. Desiring that the people who read it feel fear and hate so deep they are able to see the aliens without a human face as animals that need to be exterminated.

Propaganda is a B*tch, I cannot say it enough and there is alot of untrue, biased, racially motivated propaganda pieces out there that have people believing untrue stats and "facts". This was my point from the beginning. Racists are behind these kinds of propaganda and people need to be aware.

the referance is to the crime happened no one did anything then
they should not do anything now

but now you change your story by saying

----------------------------------

Sooooo, what your saying is traffic violators should get the chair as all crimes are punishable by death right???? Come on the punishment fits the crime. These people for the most part have hurt noone. Not saying there are not criminals in the bunch because all races and backgrounds have criminals but for the majoprity who are not criminals other than illegal status. You are buying into the racist mentality of them being less than human at some level and that is wrong. You cannot make a human into an expendable animal and make it right.

--------------------------------------

you through enough trash that is not relative

then maybe no one will see

not one person said anyone should be pit to death

for anything except you

trying to distract from the issue

you say enforcement was a joke and citizens
brought the illegals in

and are argue that because of this lack of enforcement then

they should be permitted to stay

my bringing up the hypothetical murder was using this same argument saying the law was not enforced then

why enforce it now

your argument for the illegals

but the illegals are breaking the law today just by being here
and they know it

you are very good at slight of argument maybe you should run for political office

we are way beyond that first post

and show me in that first post whether true or not

which it may not be likly is not (you have not proved it)

you used national numbers those are city and state numbers

to say that they are committing victim less crime is false

prostitution and drug use are more victim less

but prosecuted everyday

I give up.

So much for an answer to my question .

And PLEASE show me where I referred to LEGAL aliens as "unhuman and animals". Hell, for that matter, show me where I referred to ILLEGAL aliens as that.

So, Dragon, going by your rather twisted logic, anything you don't agree with goes into two piles: One for "propaganda", and the other for "racist". I guess if you can't explain it, it MUST be racist or propaganda. I can't believe you've gone on for what, 17 or 18 pages, holding on to your "try to save face by claiming a wild conspiracy theory" desperate argument.

Others have posted links effectively backing up their facts.

YOU, on the other hand, offer nothing in contradiction except for the tired old "If I don't agree with it, it's a lie".

But, trying to be as nice as I possibly can, I'll give you a C+ for "effort" in trying to answer my question. Your result, however, gets an "F", and that's only because grades don't get any worse than that.

Better luck next time.

Hell, the proof in the fact the FBI does not even count hispanics alone is proof enough of falseness of the post. The INS has no such data is also proof. One legitimate government post was given and that was proven to be a link to a study done about rap sheets of aliens in 2005 and what crimes they were committing so that was proven false. So you are not reading if you did not notice that. Prostitution and drugs is less victimless than illegals trying to live a better life here than where they come from??????????Now you are trying to hard to stretch the truth. Stop making it a non human issue. It is a human issue. These are human beings trying to live and make a life for themselves. Lead here by our own citizens to utilize them as cheap slave labor. If the jobs were not here for them they could not live here especially since they can get no benefits from the government as I know personally from working at Social Services. So we brought them here and now we must humanely deal with them. That is as basic as it gets.

i did not bring them here

what you did then you need prosecuted to

they knew they were breaking law

they know they still are

and you are avoiding nearly all my posts

and web links

sorry you lose this one

I answered your question beautifully, understandably and usefully. If you cannot see the humane side of this issue that is your inner demon working on you, not me. I see the human side of the issue, these are humans not animals to be exterminated as this false and very bigoted orginal post would have you to believe. If you choose to live in a life where you can be falsey influenced by racial propaganda, that is also your choice. I will continue to call it how I see it and I will continue live my life knowing that I treat other humans in a respectful and dignified way versus the originator of the information posted on this forum, depicting other humans as animals.

you are the only one saying exterminate

they need to be dealt with for breaking

any law they have broken

if fond guilty they need to be dealt with

as the law says

and you have not answered about 70% of my posts

you say how you feel

post maybe 2 links

that are not really proof of anything

as related to this thread

no one is saying they are not human other than you

you keep saying they are not this

they should not be treated as

you keep side stepping the issue at hand

but you also say enforce laws already on the books

well the law to deport illegals are on the books

as well as law against mass amnesty which i posted

so are you wrong when you say enforce laws on the books

or are you wrong when you say they are not hurting anyone
and should be permited to stay

i see the human issue

but you only see one side of the human issue

you ignore this

-----------------------

Thu 11/15/07 09:21 PM
Underground Economy Growing as Illegal Immigrants Head to New States, More Jobs
By Angie Wagner, The Associated Press, December 3, 2005
Illegal immigrants are gaining a larger share of the job market and are spreading beyond traditional immigrant states like California, Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois and New Jersey, according to this article.
More illegals are moving to states like Utah, Washington, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Georgia and the Dakotas because of the increasing number of companies eager for cheap labor.
Vernon Briggs, a Cornell University labor economics professor, is quoted as saying: "The toleration of illegal immigration undermines all of our labor. It rips at the social fabric. It's a race to the bottom. The one who plays by the rules is penalized. It becomes a system that feeds on itself. It just goes on and on and on."
According to the Pew Hispanic Center, a research institute, the service sector employs the most illegal immigrants with 33 percent, followed by the construction industry, production and food processing and farming. The hotel and restaurant businesses and construction are the big employers. Pew estimates that more than 1 of every 4 drywall installers and landscape workers are illegal; about 1 in 5 workers in meat and poultry packing are illegal, as are about 1 in 6 in the leisure and hospitality industry or construction.
Pew estimates that the average illegal immigrant family makes $27,400 -- more than 40 percent below the legal immigrant or native family income of about $47,700.
John Keeley, spokesman for the Center for Immigration Studies, is quoted as saying: "We're seeing the wage bases in these industries erode simply because there is a glut of low-skill labor flooding the low-skill market. The business community has become addicted to it. It's a way for them to keep their business costs down."
More illegal workers do dangerous work and exploited, this article says. A 2004 Associated Press investigation found that Mexican workers are 80 percent more likely to die on the job than are native-born workers.

http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/east_asia_pacific/chinese_human_smuggling/smuggling_in_the_press/impact_on_governments.html

------------------------

what about the human issue on the legal side of

being in the country

what about the people's families that have their feet

knocked off from under them

because of the Underground Economy

you need to take the blinders off

and see the broader picture

Do you know what the GAO is Dragoness?


You never did address their report to congress!

http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05646r.html

If the Feds dont keep records of such, then they are grossly incompetent! If you would read it you will see links and sources about where their info came!

I also didnt see categories for ME descent! Maybe they dont post the information together for fear of being called a racist by (sorry Kat) bleeding hearts that say its politically incorrect!!

Show me where I was a racist in my posts!

Maybe the info is published separate than the other! I dont know but it sure isnt on the one you pulled up! I have posted a link on here where the author says the FBI confirmed the figures in the first post!

Anyway, back to a report from the GAO. They have links to these figures, including the scientific, unbiased way they were gathered!!

The briefing slides in enclosure I address each of our three questions.
In summary, for our study population of 55,322 illegal aliens, we found
that:

* They were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about
8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-
eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent
(about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about
15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after
1990.

* They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses,
averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may
include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly
one and half times more offenses than arrests.[Footnote 6] Almost all
of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly
more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10
offenses. About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration
offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as
burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and property damage.
About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery,
assault, and sex-related crimes. The balance was for such other
offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the influence;
fraud--including forgery and counterfeiting; weapons violations; and
obstruction of justice.

* Eighty percent of all arrests occurred in three states--California,
Texas, and Arizona. Specifically, about 58 percent of all arrests
occurred in California, 14 percent in Texas, and 8 percent in Arizona.

If you pay attention to those figures and compare them to the first post. You will notice quite a few similarities!

Like location for starter, severity of the problem for two!!! Then check the sources, it is a very well written and researched report! Check it out with your eyes open this time! You might find that both are from government sites, and maybe you'll find the numbers for Hispanics and other illegal immigrants!

Look, I see the big picture of the aliens the economy and all that you are not posting anything I have not considered. You are still making the issue bigger than it is for whatever your motivation be, whether it is racial or economical or whatever. The issue here is employers here hired and employed aliens allowing them to live here and make a way for themselves here. That means We ( America in it's whole entirety) are at fault for doing it. The humans we speak of as aliens cannot humanely be rounded up Nazi style and deported, it just cannot be done humanely. Who wants the Nazi style roundups and deportation? The racists do that is who. Now to take into consideration that aliens are illegally here and they should make ammends for the illegality of it, whether we brought them here or not, is saying that the punishment should fit the crime. In the instance of victimless crimes the perpetrator is usually given probation with some fines for the cost. To say the aliens who are not doing other crimes should have a probation and possibly a fine of some kind would be humane. To say round them up Nazi style and ship them out inhumanely like unwanted animals is not even a slightly human thing to think of, let alone push with any respect to the person pushing it. Now I keep addressing the same thing over and over. You are claiming I have not answered your posts but I have answered any with a clear question in them. I have posted the LEGITIMATE FBI SITES FOR CRIMINAL INFORMATION and would also post the INS reports but none exist since the 9/11 investigation on the perpetrators of that crime. What answer are you looking for? That your obvious biased opinion of this issue is right? I cannot say that because I am not feeling that you are right in your views. You keep posting that they are criminals but in order for the punishment to fit the crime they would be on probation in our criminal system as the crime has no victims. So what, Nazi roundups, concentrations camps? The line to racists crimes is too easily crossed in this situation, extreme diplomacy is needed here to make sure the humane thing is done. Considering we created this problem ourselves with neglect and promotion of slave labor. I can continue to go on and on answering the same questions but it is a bit redundant. I am answering in an intelligent and understandable manner.

The original post this forum is based on is propaganda, lies, created to bring fear and hate to the forefront of this issue. That is what needed to be said. Racists propaganda with no merit.

Gee Dragoness why is it when you socialists get backed into a corner by fact you lash out. Nazi style roundups, nobody is going to round them up and send them to extermination camps, just send them back to the country they came from.

I am convinced of one thing if the people who support amnisty for illegal aliens had to foot the bill entirely while the people who do not support aminsty didn't have to pay for it, there would be a lot fewer people supporting the issue.

You constantly keep evading the issue, these people came here of their own free will and made a conscious choice to violate the laws of the U.S. by doing so. They should not be rewarded for doing that. Anyone with enough brains to pour water out of their boots knows if you reward unacceptable behavior you get more of it.

I cannot believe you brought back up the gao report I already determined it to be a collective of the aliens identified in the system per rap sheets and the list of the crimes they were arrested for in 2005 no national average or anything. Compared to the national crime stats from the REAL fbi site ....this proves nothing to this original post. Second, I said that they were illegal and should do some sort of retribution even though it was Americans that brought them here and gave them a way to live here. Do not put words in my mouth that I did not say. Deportation never came out of my mouth other than to scoff at it as a Nazi approach to be inhumane.

My intelligence factor should not be in question. I am very intelligent and do not support racist causes, of which this one the racists are loving right now. I will say this again and again, we brought them here, Americans, as slave labor. The fault falls on our shoulders. Each time we bought our fruit at lower prices in the grocery store we supported the slave labor force of illegals, every time we got a deal on almost anything from a company of any industry we were supporting slave labor of aliens. The responsibility of these humans lies on our shoulders and Nazi roundups is not a humane solution. Sorry if I cannot agree with ya'll on that one.