this is a tangled web to be sure

repost cause i did not want it last on page and missed

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Tue 10/30/07 08:15 AM
so are they of one being

or are they two beings

being of one species (for lack of a better word)

say you have a five dollar bill and a one dollar bill

so the five dollar bill is the leader because it is larger

the one dollar bill both of which are of the same currency

and thus the one dollar bill is smaller

it is sacrificed b4 the 5 dollar bill

and thus you can not get to a five dollar bill without

first coming to the one dollar bill

- - - - - -

insert head scratching emoticon here

adj4u,

The Father and Son are equally God, but the Father is the leader. That doesn't mean that Jesus is somehow less than God. Your money analogy is completely off, they are of equal value. The same relationship is designed into marriage: Two equal partners with different responsiblities.

Looking at both bills...
they both still say....
"In God We Trust"

at least for now yokoke

completely wrong you say


hhhmmmmmmmmmmm

interesting

and what branch of christianity do you believe spider

adj4u,

This thread isn't about me, so what branch of Christianity I belong to is of no importance.

that would be true

if you did not say my analogy with the money was

completely false

but as jesus told peter

verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the **** crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice

mark 14 30

are you denying him spider

seems you would be proud

adj4u,

"are you denying him spider"

What I am denying is your inference that Jesus is of less value than the Father.

And I'm honestly not sure how your faulty analogy brings the branch of Christianity to which I belong, into question.

this is for your saying the money thing is completely wrong

thus raising the question of your branch of christianity

-------------------------

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me.

King James Bible
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

American Standard Version
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Bible in Basic English
Jesus said to him, I am the true and living way: no one comes to the Father but by me.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Darby Bible Translation
Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me.

English Revised Version
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

-______________________________-----------

to list a few many more here

from

http://bible.cc/john/14-6.htm

i must say

i am relearning a lot with this debate

adj4u,

What does John 14:6 have to do with Jesus' equality with Yahweh? That is speaking of Jesus' ROLE in His relationship with God. I already pointed out that the Father and Son are equal, but they have different responsiblities. I think we should take this to emails, because we are getting nowhere and clouding up the thread. Something I have said isn't clicking for you and I would like to help you understand whatever it is that I have garbled.

it has nothing to do with what you said

it has to do with my money parable

it's funny how people like to spend time arguing technicalities of the unarguable.

subjects which can easily be tested and verified make for short discussions.

the most lengthy arguments involve unanswerable propositions
it is no coincidence that these are also the most pointless

This discussion is no longer about DNA, but adj4u is questioning if Jesus is God and asking about the trinity. I believe that those are very important issues.

adj4u,

Jesus died for our sins, the Father will never die. The Father and the Son are equal, the Father isn't five times as valuable as the Son. The Father is the leader, because Jesus submitted to Him, not because the Father is greater. If you have a $5 and a $1, you can spend either one at any time. Your analogy doesn't work for those reasons.

whatever spider you missed it completely

be well and i must say you do stand up for what you believe

even if you need to study a little more to find the beeter arguments for your points

and i have found some you have not mentioned

actually many

and yes it is still about the dna issue

as if jesus is born of a woman then he has the dna

but if he was not born of woman but

just inserted and carried by a woman

as your argument suggest then he would not necessarily
have human dna not that he can't have

what i am questioning is the time table of which
the trinity became the trinity

not the trinity its self

so seeing you did not understand the issue

then i guess i could see why you used the incorrect argument

and the point being of the money is

you can not have a five and not have a one in some form

it has nothing to do with spending it

did you not read the species remark in the same post
used to but it in context

tho the money thing is not a correct parable the reason you find it incorrect is wrong as well

adj4u,

==============================================================
what i am questioning is the time table of which
the trinity became the trinity
==============================================================

The trinity is eternal, it has always existed.

Spider wrote:
“Jesus died for our sins, the Father will never die.”

But isn’t this kind of redundant?

It is said the Jesus died for our sins, but the whole point of the Bible is that he rose from the dead, and continues to live even today and is expected to come back.

What meaning does death have if he didn’t actually die?

Everything in the Bible is of the type of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Jesus is God, but he’s not really God.

Jesus died for our sins, but he didn’t really die.

These things make no sense. They are all nonsensical.

Greek Mythology has been discounted simply because the authors of Greek Mythology made the mistake of claiming that their gods lived atop a mountain on earth. As time when on people went up the mountain and showed that there were no gods living there, thus is was all chalked up to mythology.

The authors of the Bible were clever enough to place there gods in an unreachable heaven where no one can go and show that their gods don’t exist. But their stories are so totally nonsensical that we really shouldn’t need to show that the gods don’t actually exist. We should be clever enough to realize that the stories simply make no sense and are redundant.

The whole idea that God “rules” his heavenly Kingdom from a throne with his son sitting at his right-hand side should be a clear indicator that the authors of Middle Eastern Mythology invented God in their own image and not the other way around.

The whole idea that the creator of this entire universe would focus on just a few nations and people in the Middle East for his drama to unfold is absurd. What about all the rest of his creation? If he was going to inspire men to write a book why focus just on one little tiny geographical area of the planet? Why not inspire authors all over the globe to write similar things so that it would be clear that this message came from an unbiased creator of all mankind. After all, God is suppose to be omnipresent, this would not have been a difficult thing or God to do.

The idea that God would have a favorite man in Abraham, and a favorite people in the Jews, and a favorite nation in Israel makes no sense at all. What about the rest of his creation? These stories are clearly just Middle Eastern regional mythology. Can you really believe that God didn’t give a hoot about the Chinese, and Japanese, and North American Indians, etc, etc, etc.?

This is a regional mythology that has been perpetuated far too long. It’s a totally absurd story.

Like Carl Sagan has said, “The universe is far too large a stage for the drama proclaimed by the Bible”

The people who wrote these stories thought that there was a heaven and Earth. Period. Not only did then not have a clue about the size and extent of the universe, but they didn’t even have a clue about the size and extent of the very planet they lived on. They thought their regional area was the focal point of creation, and their stories reflect that mindset. Their stories also reflect the mindset that they thought of God in much the same way they thought of themselves. They gave God the human frailties that they saw within themselves, including the desire to rule over a kingdom.

Spider, you talk about the religion like as if you were there and you know precisely what went on. But you are full of nothing but hot air. You weren’t there and you have no clue about the things that you proclaim to be “true”. All you can possible do is convey your own imagination, and that’s precisely what you are conveying.

Abracadabra,

==============================================================
What meaning does death have if he didn’t actually die?
==============================================================

I said this earlier...
==============================================================
He went from being pure spirit to being man and spirit. He placed himself below His creations and subjected Himself to His laws. He lived a perfect, sinless life and then died the death of a thief on the cross. Jesus could have ended the pain by healing Himself. He could have destroyed His tormentors, but he suffered for our sake. Jesus, who was spirit and didn't experiance pain or suffering or death experianced all for our sake. Jesus who created the universe, became the creation, so that we could be saved from our own sinful ways.
==============================================================

Jesus was a man, so he felt pain and he did die. He resurrected Himself after three days, but He died. Jesus was obviously afraid of dying. Jesus experianced the temporary loss of his relationship with Yahweh. Imagine, Jesus who had eternally been in communion with His father, suddenly finds Himself abandoned. In fear and loneliness, he crys out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

So what was the point in Jesus dying? He lived a perfect life and died a terrible death. But since He was without sin, Jesus defeated death and returned to life with a resurrected body. Jesus experianced things that only humans, only beings of flesh experiance. Pain, humiliation, heartbreak and loneliness. Jesus experianced all those things, which all humans experiance at one time or another and didn't sin once. Jesus suffered in a way we can't imagine, because He was temporarily removed from communion with God. While we experiance that in our lives, for Jesus it must have been like throwing a tropical frog into icy water. It was a completely new, terrifying and painful experiance. Jesus had always, eternally been in communion with Yahweh and the loss of that connection while he was dying on the cross must have been unbearable.

The end result of that suffering is that the debt for our sins has been paid. We don't have to die spiritually, just like Jesus, we can continue to live. Jesus has defeated death and those who accept Him as Lord can share in that victory.