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My bad, I got confused on the hypostatic union. Jesus did change physically while he lived. That doesn't change the fact that Jesus existed and is in the Bible before the New Testament. That course really is good, the teacher offers a lot of great scriptures from Old and New Testament to show that Malach Yahweh was Jesus.

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if this is true that jesus was in the old testament

then he was not born of mary

and the holy spirit did not need to come upon her

which would make the whole new testament a lie

adj4u,

John chapter one speaks of Jesus being with God in the beginning and teaches that Jesus, not the Father, created the universe and mankind. This is supported in other New Testament writings.

I'm not going to try to list all of the scriptures that support the preincarnate Christ, but here are a few:

Judges 6:8-14
Isaiah 44:6
Exodus 3:1-5
Josuah 5:15
Genesis 32:24

Isaiah 20:1-6 shows that God's presence makes the ground Holy. Then notice that the Angel of the Lord (Malach Yahweh) claims that the ground around Him is holy. Notice also that Malach Yahweh allows Himself to be worshipped. Why would God allow an simple angel to be worshipped? He wouldn't as we see in Colossians 2:18 "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind," and other verses. It's important to remember that Malach (aka angel) means messenger. Malach Yahweh was "THE" angel of the LORD, not "a" angel. Malach Yahweh was special and different, where he stood it was holy ground and when he spoke, it was Yahweh who was speaking. Malach Yahweh was Jesus before he was born.

This really is a huge subject and there is lots of scripture to support the pre-incarnation of Christ, but I don't have time. If the subject interests you, please take that course.

i am not saying you are right nor that you are wrong

but it seems reasonable to me that

if jesus was around before his birth on earth

then it is a fair assumption that

the basis of the new testament is false

and if the base is false

then how can the structure be trusted

adj4u,

I don't understand your logic. It's accepted in Christianity that Jesus existed before he was born. I don't see how that could invalidate the New Testament. Jesus still suffered and died or our sins. Could you explain why you think that Jesus' preincarnate existance invalidates the New Testament?

here is a few more on the site


1. DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

2. DEUTERONOMY 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]

3. DEUTERONOMY 32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

4. 2 SAMUEL 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

5. 1 KINGS 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

7. 2 KINGS 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

8. 1 CHRONICLES 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

9. NEHEMIAH 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

10. PSALM 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

11. PSALM 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

12. ISAIAH 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.

13. ISAIAH 43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

http://www.irr.org/mit/onegod.html

adj4u,

Isaiah 44:6
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Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
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Notice that Yahweh (The LORD) and the LORDs redeemer, Yahweh of hosts (LORD of hosts) are speaking, but they use the singular pronouns of "I" and "me" instead of the plural pronouns "we" and "us". Two beings who speak as one. Thus all of your scriptures are put into focus, the Father and the Son are ONE GOD, not two. Their exact relationship is beyond our full understanding, which is why we must be led by faith.

This scripture is wonderful for many reasons, but notice this: "his redeemer". This is speaking of the Messiah, who is called "the redeemer". But then the prophet calls the redeemer "Yahweh of hosts". Yahweh ONLY means God. To the Jews, Yahweh would never be used to describe the Messiah, because they don't believe the Messiah to be God. The Jews say "adonai" when they speak of the Messiah. In English, both Yahweh and adonai are translated as "Lord", but Yahweh is in all caps adonai is first caps only in the KJV.

This verse clearly shows that Jesus and the Father are two beings, but yet still one God. That isn't something that the human mind can completely grasp, but it's amazing none-the-less.

if he is the first and the last

then is he not the only

and if there are multiple speakers then again

it is a falsehood and of no value

adj4u,

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I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
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That is saying "I am the only God". It may seem dramatic by todays standards, but in Hebrew, you repeat a statement several times to indicate that what you are saying is the truth and those who are listening should pay attention.

i do not dis agree with that part of what was said

this is of what i refer to

______________

from your post

Two beings who speak as one.

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just cant agree with it

and do not see myself ever agreeing to it

with out proof beyond a reasonable doubt

just cant agree with it

and do not see myself ever agreeing to it

with out proof beyond a reasonable doubt
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This is interesting thinking but not unique and so NOT new. For a moment lets assume the bible is correct K? Just humour me for a moments time.

If this is so and the bible is correct was it not thinkers like this who saw Christ to the cross and hammered those nails in while mocking him? heck they thought he was a fraud too.

Interestingly enough back then Christ performed many miracles right in front of peoples eye and yet they still killed him while calling him a sorcerer.

It's pretty safe to say that people today have not changed much from yesterday (in the literal/intrinsic sense) and if they didn't want to believe then they won't beleive today either.

God NEVER stated he would provide proof beyond any resonable doubt. God doesn't take orders from us.

John 3:16 is about as simple as it gets...theology 101 and like mastercard to belivers priceless.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believing does not constuitute God providing scientific evidence of any sort regardless of our Christmas wish list of him!

I find it amusing and funny that a mans body such as Christ's would even be sought after by those who think he was a fake/fraud and phoney? Why bother? What is it about Christianity that has you're knickers so up in knots to even care? Why would you care if I believe if you do not? What buisness is it of mine or yours to tell anyone what to believe?

You may talk about energy, frequencies, weights and measures and any other man discovered and man practiced scientific principle/notion. We remain ignorant because we are man and not God. It has never been God's intention to spill all the beans here on earth.

There is a spiritual warfare that predates mans exsistence that has more explaination to the whys? hows? who's? that makes this clouded mystery necessary. To understand the "secrecy" and intent of God in doing so would be to understand this spiritual warfare.

The key word is "believe" and its just not as complicated as some want to make it on themselves.

To the over thinkers...hey! God said we would have to become like children to enter the kingdom of heaven. He was referring to the trust and belief a child has that a parent will meet ALL his needs. In that we can be rest assured that all our questions will be answered...just may not come on your time not in your method aka Science.

DNA and the God factor...maybe? In time some of us will know.
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Spider I continue to enjoy your posts immensely but have one question for you?

When an agnostic/atheist is on their death bed whom do they cry out to?

LOL...sorry don't answer that!

HelloHallo wrote:
“What is it about Christianity that has you're knickers so up in knots to even care?”

Because Christians (not all, but the fanatical radicals) use Christianity to deny intellectual advancement of humanity. They have historically hampered the advancement of science in many areas.

Science ultimately always wins out because of it’s superior truth, but the mythological superstition of religion has still hampered it. I don’t think there are many Christians living today who still believe that the earth is at the center of creation. And most of them just take all the rest of scientific knowledge for granted. In fact, they’d be the first to stand in line demanding their money back if a piece of technology doesn’t work just perfect.

Yet, those same people want to teach Creationism in schools in favor of evolution. They also want to discriminate against people who desire same-gender relationships because their mythology claims that such relationships are a sin.

Many so-called "Christians" would like to put their false beliefs into law!

“Why would you care if I believe if you do not?”

I really don’t care what you believe on a personal basis. But obviously you don’t stop there. You try to convince others to hold your prejudiced demented bigoted views and then you gather in large congregations and try to use your collective superstitious dogma to pass laws to make other people live based on what you believe!

“What buisness is it of mine or yours to tell anyone what to believe?”

God how I wish Christians would take that to heart!

They are always telling other people that Jesus is the ONLY way and that if they don’t believe in the Bible and accept Jesus as their savoir God will shun them and they are sinners.

So just tell me now. WHO IS IT that is telling other people what to believe????

I couldn’t care less what YOU believe. But when you start preaching your superstitious poppycock to the masses, I’ll be right there beside you offering the masses the TRUTH of REAL enlightenment.

You would just love it to not have any competition. For all “non-believers”, as you call them, to just shut up and let you spread your mythological lies and bigotry.

Bigotry and ignorance does not come from God. Yet this is what you preach.

I stand up against bigotry and ignorance.

so halo

you believe jesus was available b4 his birth

and is in the old testament

and when i posted those scriptures

stating that there is only one God

and no other that they are lies

and really are multiple Gods

speaking as one

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interesting

HelloHallo wrote:
“What is it about Christianity that has you're knickers so up in knots to even care?”

I'd like to clarify that it’s not really Christianity that bothers me. It’s only the fanatical radical Christians that bother me.

Most Christians that I personally know, have no problem believing in evolution, or science. They have no problem with gay couples, and they don’t tell “non-believers” that they are wrong. They just follow the golden rule and do their own thing. Just like Jesus ask them to do.

If all Christians were like them I wouldn’t have any problem with the religion at all.

It’s the fanatical radical political activists who use Christianity as a weapon that I don’t care for. They are just hiding behind the skirt of Jesus pretending to represent him when in fact that are abusing what he actually stood for.

fair post there magic man

all religions have their fanatics

and twist the teaching of their religion

for their own meaning

i wonder how many of todays religious leaders

feel they have to charge a price

for their teachings or their papers

seems there are many money changers in todays religions

adj4u,

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and when i posted those scriptures

stating that there is only one God

and no other that they are lies

and really are multiple Gods

speaking as one
==============================================================

God: One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed

Money is a god...is money a singular thing? Isn't there stocks, bonds, cash, credit, etc?

Women are a god, if you spend all of your time chasing women, then women are your god.

God is three beings who are joined. If you glorify the son, you glorify the father. If you gloify the father, you glorify the son. They are one God. It isn't a lie to say that there is only one God, just as you could say of someone "Money is his god" and not be talking about a single dollar bill.

so when was jesus begotten

this is the issue of which i speak

if he was begotten b4 mary then

i see his birth as a farse

and misleading

and if this is the case the foundation of christianity

is based on flawed doctrine

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after the time of mary i could concede the multiple headed

religious inspiration but if jesus was in existence

b4 his birth mary then what was the true sacrifice he made

30 years of being (not even half man) [as your earlier post suggested]

in my opinion your posts are doing more to discredit

christianity than any post have read by any other poster

not that there's anything wrong with that (in best jerry voice)

unless that is not what yer trying to do

adj4u,

The sacrifice made by Jesus is made even more significant by the fact that Jesus isn't some dude, Jesus is the creator of everything. Jesus' birth was His birth as a MAN. His preexistance in no way makes His birth a farse.

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b4 his birth mary then what was the true sacrifice he made

30 years of being (not even half man) [as your earlier post suggested]
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So you see no sacrifice on Jesus' part? He went from being pure spirit to being man and spirit. He placed himself below His creations and subjected Himself to His laws. He lived a perfect, sinless life and then died the death of a thief on the cross. Jesus could have ended the pain by healing Himself. He could have destroyed His tormentors, but he suffered for our sake. Jesus, who was spirit and didn't experiance pain or suffering or death experianced all for our sake. Jesus who created the universe, became the creation, so that we could be saved from our own sinful ways.

thus you are saying that he is not his son

adj4u,

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thus you are saying that he is not his son
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Are you asking if Jesus is the Father's son? Yes, obviously He is. Jesus called Yahweh, "Father" and Yahweh called Jesus "my Son". Jesus is not a biological child of Yahweh, Jesus is Yahweh's son because He has choosen to place Himself below Yahweh. Not because Jesus isn't Yahweh's equal, but because they saw the need for one to lead and the other to follow.

so are they of one being

or are they two beings

being of one species (for lack of a better word)

say you have a five dollar bill and a one dollar bill

so the five dollar bill is the leader because it is larger

the one dollar bill both of which are of the same currency

and thus the one dollar bill is smaller

it is sacrificed b4 the 5 dollar bill

and thus you can not get to a five dollar bill without

first coming to the one dollar bill

- - - - - -

insert head scratching emoticon here