in the UPC we have tons of liscenced women preachers, pastors, missionaries. there was lady by the name of Pauline Gruse. she was a missionary to kenya or libya i believe. died twice and God brought her back from the dead both times. once struck by lighting dead on in the face. and the other bit by a spider. we even have Ladies Retreat in all the states here where there's only women preaching and its to other women.....

Didn't mean to mortify you Kat, we both know God is not the cause of this discussion. Miles and I already agreed to disagree in a previous thread regarding my ideas on the Bible as a whole.

I guess we could take this a step farther....

Can women preach in churches?
Can women preach in everyday settings?
Can women preach to men?

The Bible was translated and in those transcripts we are reading what they thought eons ago it meant to the best of their ability at the time. Can you imagine if they got a part wrong? How could that impact our world as we know it today? Would it shake your Faith? The Bible is a translated love letter from God.

We can walk with God and try to be the best we can offer yourselves up to be as decent individuals for Him or whatever your beliefs. In the BIBLE it says to not be judgemental, but reading here in this forum we are... and we want to say our beliefs are better than Joe Blow or Jane Doe and that does not benefit anyone. Having discussions are great to explore yourself and grow which is what God wanted...in my spirit guided opinion. <--- Great disclaimer since we are entitled to it....

But to go back to the original thread, can women preach... what is preaching?

1. To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.
2. To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.
3. To deliver (a sermon). (heritage dictionary)

So in essence, preaching is basically sharing the Word of God in such a manner than flocks, choirs, the misled, non-perfect people might get a glimpse of something better than they have now.

Looking into the BIBLE.... you will see that Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna had joined Jesus during his ministry and supported him out of their private means(read Luke 8:1-3). He spoke to women both in public and private and I may read more into this but I really think Jesus was learning from them as well. Jesus was a people watcher would you not agree?

There was a story about an unnamed Gentile woman who taught Jesus that the ministry of God is not limited to particular groups and persons, but belongs to ALL who have faith... there are MEN of FAITH out there right?(read Mark 7:24-30 and Matthew 15:21-28).

When Jesus was arrested his male disciples bailed on him. but the women stood by him and they accompanied him to the foot of the cross. Go to the resurrection (witnessed by WOMEN).... can we say Mary Magdalene?

The details of the gospel stories are always going to be questioned, but in general many reflect the prominent historical roles women played in Jesus' ministry as disciples.

So again..... who better to preach?

A woman

ArtGurl just pointed something out in another thread and as usual, she makes a good point. Let go of the gender division. Who better to preach men and women (yes, if taught to do so a talking animal too certain birds come to mind) of great faith. I'd prefer to add love and mercy in there too, but hey, I won't push it.

ArtGurl is very wise... I was merely addressing the topic at hand that women should be allowed to preach. Think about sign language with an ape or monkey, who says one can't...

I hereby throw in Love and Mercy with you Wench... sometimes some things are worth being pushed. That is why sometimes stepping outside our comfort zones requires just that... a push. And who better to help us? And they say he doesn't have a sense of humour LOL

I appreciate your thoughts on this... Thank You.

Why make it so complicated?
Just imagine the time the bible has been written in.
There was no public education. You wanted to learn something, your father had to pay for it. Didn't matter whether you wanted to be a scribe, a butcher, or whatever, you just had to pay.
Your father was rich, you as a son could be a scribe, or anything that demanded longer learning.
But which father would cough up for the education of a daughter when her only purpose at that time was to get married, preferably to a rich man, and he had to pay for the dowry as well.
And since nobody ever thought that this might change, the ones who wrote the bible never took it into consideration that at one much later time a woman would be able to read or write and therefore would have the possibility to become a priest.

The beginnings o this thread was directed at what Paul counseled. Paul was very inluential in the law. Even being thier at Stephens death. Now from what you are saying i do not see how you can have it both ways. The bible speaks of the older women teaching the younger. In Titus a bishop is spoken of. I do not believe thier or in Timothy thier is any notion of women preachers teaching the masses. Maybe that is where i conveyed this wrong. Yes I have said on this thread that Yahshua listened to women. When the woman washed his feet with her hair it says he "thought" on it and spoke of her love. Then he said what this woman has done here today will be remembered as memorial to her. Because the "men"did not offer him anything. Now just where did the foot washing ceremony come from? It is not in the Passover ceremony. Yet after this Yahshua tells the disciples to wash each others feet as he has done to them. Love and humility. Humility is a great theme of the bible. If you decide what you want to believe and what you do no then through the bible out and forget it. You assume this just as you assume and will no doubt defend the name of JC. Yet we know this was a deliberate attempt to take the only name under heaven by which men can be saved. Why/ Again we pick and choose what we want. If you believe that thier is a day of reconing as Isa.61 says then you also have to believe Mal. when he prophesied that Yahweh's people would be called "the restorers of the old ways" before his comming. The same as Yahshua told the desciples about the evangel being preached to all the world. So understanding and making assumptions you may do. It is your right. But as a believer do not try to make an assumption doctrine Yahshua preached and showed us as his fathers will... Blessings of Shalom... Miles

>It is your right. But as a believer do not try to make an assumption doctrine Yahshua preached and showed us as his fathers will... Blessings of Shalom... Miles

Miles, Thank You for my right to an opinion... neither you or I were there.... neither you or I were present when the stories were transcribed into what there is today... There are many parts missing to the BIBLE, but that does not stop my Faith...nor will you.

And you should take your own advice of being a believer and not making assumptions either... there is a difference in sharing a honest discussion and the way you present yourself, your words, your beliefs and to attempt to make one here look and feel LESS....however before clicking that blue button, re-read your words my friend...and ask yourself is this what Jesus wants me to say? That is the beauty of this world... The beauty of each of us... to have that love, grace, friendship and beauty of Christ in each of us...

Words from a believer that attack another carries not the word of God..... why can't we all get along?? deems appropriate in a light hearted attempt to have you understand the lengths you go makes the Devil himself grin at the flavor your heart must taste to him.

LOL Lighten up there Miles...

I am firm in what i believe. I do not believe that Yahshua was exactly calm when he through out the money changers or Math. 23. I will stay with what I have said. Why did Yahshua say this anyway?

Matt 10:34-42

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword . 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

40 A Cup of Cold Water

(Mark 9:41)

"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41 He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward."
NKJV
Study closely. It brings life... Shalom... Miles

That is great you are firm....
in what you believe.

Matt 10 - Mark 9

Refresh my memory in how these serve the topic of women preaching?

Feel free to post your own personal thread and I will be more than happy to discuss, but I would prefer to stay on topic... which is let the women preach........... LOL

>It brings life.
They would love this in the Sex and Dating Forum Miles LOL



Perhaps we need to reset our minds to approach Scripture with fresh eyes, a lightness of spirit, a new alertness to detail, and a savvy of human nature on display in all the settings of real people Scripture presents. I think we would catch more of what we have previously missed.

*** Again my opinion... then again perhaps you should forgive me and pray now for I believe "women should preach"

This is my last thread and response Miles here on this topic, you can only beat a dead duck so many times and it will always stay a dead duck...

Good Luck Miles with your journey...

Now back to the topic,

In 2007, "why can't women preach???", very distinct from, "... explain why they can't!!!".

The question raised is "... why can't wowen preach?"
The quetion mark doesn't stand as an affirmation, it is a question.
Furthermore we can reasonably presume that it might seek to address "... what could possibly stop women from preaching TODAY?".

It is so blatantly obvious to any 'civilized' and educated human being in 2007, whom is sound of mind, that nothing tangible could possibly be in the way of any woman who chose to do so, to go ahead and preach away to her heart's desire.

But we are learning here, on this very thread, that a 2000+ year old book, holds some sort of 'divine law', which somehow prescribes a patriarchal hierarchy which orders women to stand below men somehow, which means that still today in 2007, strictly based on that 2000+ yrs old book and its laws, women would be ordered into submission to their husbands, fathers or uncles, and ordered to remain silent. There will be no women preaching to men, said the book 2000 years ago or so. And so some would still have it today.

I can appreciate that the book went a long way in helping establish some sort of social and civil coherence and order, at a time where primitive and barbaric ways were considered commonstance and normal.
The book and its teachings were probably appropriate for the times (wasn't there, but it's reasonable to think so) and may very well have been instrumental in raising the moral and ethical code of living in society at the time.

But we are not there. Society has evolved. We still need rules, laws, codes, morals and shared values to be sure, but it has evolved in 2000 years.

The Bible might be a book of great and inspiring parables for many, but in 2007, it will never be a substitute for 'The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Freedoms.

So again, back to the topic, "...why can't women preach?" and for that matter be ordained, become archbishops, and why not, POPE of the Catholic Church.

And please refrain from giving me this Bible coated dogma, it just isn't helpful in forwarding this debate.

Well, just in case nobody noticed, in the Anglican and Lutherian church they do preach.

The Christian church my mother attended had a woman preacher.

So the question’s moot to me. They obviously can preach in some churches.

I personally think that churches are the most ungodly places on the surface of the planet and I avoid them at all cost. I really don’t care who’s babbling. It perfectly clear with over 2,500 sects of Christianity that the religion isn’t the slightest bit clear.

So when I see a preacher preaching all I think to myself is the obvious, “There’s another man with an opinion!”

Seriously, even preachers argue among themselves on religious interpretations. There isn’t a crystal clear message anywhere in the entire Bible. Everything in it is conflicted and contradicted in other places within the same book.

This post has been a personal observation and is offered as food for thought. Obviously there will be people who will vehemently disagree with it. But that’s the nature of the beast. I choose to reject these conflicting contorted stories of a deity and embrace the love of god directly. I found this to be much more fulfilling and rewarding. Therefore I conclude that turning directly to god must be correct. Such peace can only come from god. I can toss the ancient doctrines of mythology into the burn barrel and feel the love of god well up inside me as though I have just done her a huge favor.

James, I soooooooo agree with you

Abra,

I agree with every part of your latst ccomment here Abra, but it is the subject of another topic. This one deals with a gross and antiquated contradiction of the Catholic Church, which still orders women to be submissive to the man.

When in the presence of men, don't preach, be silent.

I couldn't careless about preaching, preachers, preacheresses, churches, Bibles, or scriptures of any religious form. But I do respect those who do car about such things.

Chief among those whom might care, I respect women. And should there be catholic women with a burning desire to preach, celebrate mass, pontificate the masses, or aspire to Pontificate in Chief (Pope), I would defend their right to all extents.

It's a matter of getting out of the dark ages. Step by step. Of course the ideal situation is to plug everyone directly on a nameless storyless 'energy god', but that will take several generations.

Step by Step!!! We can't lose Abra!!!

We will recruit all free thinking women of the catholic church whom have a desire to fight for preaching rights, preisthood, archbishophood, or what the heck, 'Popedomhood' .

As you and I you already know, we will fail miserably at gaining anything from the church: 'dogma holders' are sclerosed thinkers, nothing ever moves.

We will be left with having freed up countless women from the church, and will have soundling installed them with a direct channel to God!!!

Baby steps James. We will get to the direct connection with baby steps!!!

If you're impatient Abra, let's you and I go for broke, and start a movement for the first woman Pope of the Catholic church?!?!?!

:)

... they call seminary school Cemetary schools for Good reason. they bury the truth and inject church dogma, 501c3 compliancy and and doctrine of man, with just enough sprinkling of truth to make it look good. And these are our church leaders?
As far as the 2000 yr old law not applying today because we are more enlightened now, or women are now equal, or whatever, is just the same old mans twisting of Gods law. The Law cannot ever change. How can whats right or wrong in Gods eyes change? How can the food we need to run on change? Its not an interpetation problem back in the day, its Gods law and its not greivious. Why is that such a hard pill to swallow? mabe if we dont like the message we tend to look for problems that arnt there to support a position. Dunnow. i understand the argument about how women were considered inferior back in the day, and therefore the texts were biased... i just dont buy into it.

Like i said before thier is no authority in the book I read from for that to happen. The priesthood is male and at the end the male names of the apostles and 12 tribes of Israel are on the gates of the new jerusalem. This is future and if it is future are we not fighting against authority to change what is clearly said?... Blessings of Shalom... Miles

Also we are called the bride of Yahshua. We are taught by him our husband. So see we males are under the same rules and our women have returned to Adam from the beginning because the 2nd Adam obeyed and did not disobey Yahweh. The adam being a metaphor of each male that has chosen life.

Abra,

IT'S URGENT!!!

LET'S SAVE ALL THOSE WOMEN FROM THIS MADNESS!!!

I’m actually quite happy to see you posting Miles.

Your strict single-interpretation authoritarian view of Christianity is the single most powerful thing that drives most people away from it.

So keep on driving Miles!

You’re inadvertently doing humanity a great favor.

Don't worry Voil, there's no urgency here.

Women will flee this madness on their own.

It all cool.