is not gen up to gen 2:4 refered to as a history? Does it not from that point start explaining in detail how everything was put in motion? Miles

They can. 40% of Paul's ministry was composed of women. Most scholars believe that the verse in question is talking about a particular problem that was happening there. When you consider that the rooms were divided and women were on one side and men on the other, a wife asking a question would involve yelling across a room, you can see why. There are many verses stating that women will give prophecy, teach, etc, the only restriction is that a woman cannot be the head of the chruch, but nothing prevents them from being ministers.

show me the scriptures they can teach men? Miles

*steps up onto her soapbox*



Preach what?

Women can preach just as well as men, hence the term...


"Sing It, Sister"

@Jess

Lee can preach to me!

I may not listen, we shall see.

But I’m sure her voice will drive me to the very brink of ecstasy.

I dont have a script....I need a script writer..

Nah --- Ad lib it sister!!!!!

You definitely don't need anyone putting words in your mouth.

~~~

I’ll feed her sermon salads
to regurgitate at will

She’ll preach them from the mountain tops
to every Jack and Jill

And when they fall and break their crowns
because they’re misbehaving

I’ll take Lee home and feed her more
of the salads she’s been craving

~~~

Mnay woman do "preach"- it depends on the sect one belongs to... or the part of the scripture or holy book that you are looking at...

And Fanatic makes an excellent point, in many cultures and times woman were perceived as too powerful and at some point the men in the community rebelled and decided to take down the priestesses.

It's unfortunate that so many still somehow view women as unowrthy....

It doesn't effect me personally either way as I don't believe in proselytizing at all.

But it's still disappointing that so many organized religions continue to be divisive rather than unitizing, setting up class systems rather than equalizing...

Sigh...

The faiths that modern, western society is based on may not have had female clergy throughout the ages due to a translation error, but there are many, many religions in which women are equally valued religious leaders, and sometimes higher valued (which I do not necessarily agree with). Though I know your question wasn't really pointed at religions other than your own was it?

Hmmmmpppphhhh...

The Gospels by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are our primary sources for whatever knowledge we have of what Jesus taught about women and how he related to them. What we gain from the Gospels are remembrances and impressions of the kinds of things that Jesus said, the sorts of deeds that he did, and the types of relationship that he entered into with people. What he taught, he did not write in a book. What he did and how he lived was not recorded on videotape. What we hear, or think we hear, of Jesus is heard through the ears of others; what we see, or believe we see, we see through the eyes of others. It is presumed that the portrayal in the Gospels of Jesus' attitude toward and relationships with women is sufficiently clear and authentic.

There are at least twenty women throughout the scriptures that show women spreading the word of God and Jesus. Annointing and praising Him without fear. Teaching through love, understanding and the wisdom that Jesus with all His love for women and their abilities to comprehend and learn to then teach. Prove and bring forth many, ready to listen. To learn and come to believe in Him and His words (works).

The strongest evidence of male bias in the life and teaching of Jesus is his restricting the Twelve, to men. Why twelve, and not eleven or thirteen? Perhaps because Israel was founded on the twelve patriarchs, these new twelve constituting the nucleus of a reformed or reconstituted Israel. (If so, then twelve male disciples might be a defensible choice.) They were a unique group, never, except in the case of Judas, replaced.

Maybe Jesus chose only men to constitute the Twelve because he thought he had gone about "as far as he could go" in calling the Judaism of his time in question.

If it be argued that Jesus' choice of twelve men is an obstacle to ordaining women to the ministry today, account should also be taken of the fact that all were Jews (or "converted" Jews) and one of them betrayed Jesus. Should these too be patterns for today's ministry? The fact is that no literalism turns out to be thorough-going literalism.

Only passing attention has been paid in this study as to how far this or that story may be taken as an accurate account of what happened on this or that occasion. Judgments will vary in particular instances. What is striking is the overall impression that Jesus made, the legacy he left, the memory the church cherished. The total picture is clear enough.

First of all and most important of all, Jesus treated women as persons. He respected their intelligence, spirituality, assertiveness, and spunk. He resonated to their courage and faith. He responded to the energy of their being. He felt for them in grief and illness and loneliness. He gave to them and was open to receive from them. He took delight in their company and openly companioned with them. He met the needs of a Mary Magdalene and there was that in him that was willing to meet her needs. He quickened in them new hope. He aroused in them gratitude and devotion. And at point after point, by word and by deed, he took issue with concepts and practices that viewed or treated a woman as a second-class citizen.

It would not be inappropriate for a woman to express her appreciation of the Jesus of the Gospels:

Perhaps it is no wonder that the women were first at the Cradle and last at the Cross. They had never known a man like this Man--there never has been such another. A prophet and teacher who never nagged at them, never flattered or coaxed or patronised; who never made jokes about them, never treated them either as "The women, God help us!" or "The ladies, God bless them!"; who rebuked without querulousness and praised without condescension; who took their questions and arguments seriously; who never mapped out their sphere for them, never urged them to be feminine or jeered at them for being female; who had no axe to grind and no uneasy male dignity to defend; who took them as he found them and was completely unself-conscious. There is no act, no sermon, no parable in the whole Gospel that borrows its pungency from female perversity; nobody could possibly guess from the words and deeds of Jesus that there was anything "funny" about women's nature.
Ever notice that women, the women of the Bible stayed with Jesus throughout his life? Never faultering, never waivering, always ministering and forever in His heart? Rememebering what they were taught, keeping Him in their hearts and His teachings in their souls...

Kat

Because women are not the leader of men.
Just ask God!

By the way... I take offense to that theory anyway. Is someone going to tell me that because I am a woman that I am in some way less able to bring the word of God to people? Did not Jesus send many women out into the world to tell their stories and to make His name clear to the masses? Wonder...could that be becuse women are able to tell and make understand? That they are able to teach without fear? Women are open with their hearts and therefore able to put their hearts into their tasks. Women are teachers, chosen by God to open the hearts and minds of their children. (Not pointing at those that do not believe in God) We teach with pride and gratitude, and without favor by many. We are however favored by God. Jesus chose women by and by to go out and be His eyes and His ears. To be His mouth.
The gentle nature of a woman can and does bring about following by many lost. Where the loud and boisterous mouthings of a man can chase away. (no offense guys)
I have listened to men and women preach. Somehow....A woman can be heard differently. Could be a mother thing?
I'm gonna get it now....
Kat

no women preachers
there are plenty here of all denominations

I wouldn't belong to a religion where a woman is supposed to be silent

I know all about what it says in the bible

some thing are take too literally
I believe that's one of them

The Good Book is interpreted different by everyone that reads it.

here is one way it is interpreted


“Women Should Remain Silent”
a study of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35


Preface by Joseph Tkach

In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul wrote: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (vv. 33-35).

If we take this literally, it would mean that women are not allowed to sing in church nor respond when the pastor asks for comments or questions from the audience. Moreover, it would contradict what Paul said in chapter 11, where he said that women could pray and prophesy in church if they had the appropriate attire.

Common sense, church custom, and good principles of biblical interpretation all say that we should not take these verses literally—and almost no one does. Paul is not making a blanket prohibition that says that women can never speak in church. Rather, he was addressing his comments to a certain situation, and his comments are limited in some way. The question is, What are the limits of Paul’s prohibition? In the following paper, the doctrinal review team examines the context and looks at the details of these verses.

Joseph Tkach

____________________



A call to order

In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul begins to instruct the Corinthian church about their somewhat disorganized worship services. As we studied in our previous paper, he says that women should wear a head covering when they pray and prophesy; then he corrects the Corinthians on the way they had been observing the Lord’s Supper. In chapter 12, he addresses the proper use of spiritual gifts in the worship service. He describes a number of gifts, and insists that all gifts are important to the Body of Christ; the variety of gifts calls for mutual respect and honor, not vanity or shame.

In chapter 13, he describes love as the best way, and in chapter 14 he makes an extended contrast between the gift of tongues and the gift of prophesying. Apparently some people in Corinth were extolling the gift of tongues as a mark of superior spirituality. Paul did not tell them to stop speaking in tongues, but he did put some restrictions on how tongues should be used in the worship service:

1) There should be two or three speakers (14:27).

2) They should speak one at a time (v. 27).

3) There should be an interpretation (v. 27b). If no one can interpret the tongues, “the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (v. 28). However, this requirement should not be lifted out of its context to create a complete prohibition on the person ever speaking, singing or praying.[1]

Paul is apparently trying to give some organization to what had been a rather chaotic worship meeting—several people speaking at once, speaking words that no one could understand.

Paul recommends the gift of prophecy as a far more helpful gift, but he gives similar guidelines for those speakers, too:

1) Only two or three should speak (v. 29). If someone else has something to say, the first speaker should be quiet.[2]

2) They should speak one at a time (v. 31).

3) People should “weigh carefully what is said” (v. 29; cf. 1 Thess. 5:21).

Paul notes that “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the control of the prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32). That is, the speakers are able to stop; they cannot use “God made me do it” as an excuse for adding to the commotion.[3] When God gives a gift, he also gives the person the responsibility to make decisions to use that gift in an appropriate way. Simply having the gift is not an excuse to use it whenever and wherever the person wants to. Paul explains his reason: “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace” (v. 33).

Paul[4] then tells the women to be quiet, and to ask their questions at home: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (vv. 33-35).

Let’s examine some of the details in these verses.



Observations

1) The first thing we notice is that women are not the only people Paul tells to be “silent.” He uses the same word in verses 28 and 30 to tell tongue-speakers and prophets to be silent when others speak. In both of those verses, he is calling for a temporary silence, not a complete and permanent prohibition.[5]

2) The word for “speak” (laleō) does not necessarily mean a formal role in the pulpit—it is a general word that can also be translated “talk.” Paul used a general word to say that women should not talk, and we have to make an interpretive choice: Was he prohibiting formal speaking roles, or talk in the audience,[6] or something else?

3) Paul says that instead of speaking, women should be in submission. This implies that the Corinthian women were speaking in an insubordinate way. The fact that Paul said in chapter 11 that women could pray and prophesy, and in chapter 14 that two or three people could prophesy in a worship service, shows that women are allowed to have a slot in the speaking schedule. It is not insubordinate for them to speak prophecies; it is therefore likely that Paul is prohibiting some less-formal speaking, such as chatter or comments from the audience.[7]

4) Paul says that “the Law” requires submission. There are several options for what kind of submission is meant:

a) submission of all women to all men. However, as we saw in previous studies, the Old Testament does not require all women to submit to all men, nor does it require them to be silent. Nevertheless, some scholars believe that Paul is alluding to a “principle” derived from Genesis.[8]

b) submission of wives to their husbands.[9] Although this command is not explicitly found in the Old Testament, the presence of the command in the New Testament[10] suggests that it was based on Old Testament principles. Further, v. 35 indicates that Paul may have been dealing with a husband-wife problem. However, if Paul is alluding to a rule about family relationships, it would not necessarily apply to authority in the church.

c) submission to a Roman law that restricted women’s roles in pagan worship.[11] Although Paul normally means the Mosaic law when he uses the word nomos, it is possible that he meant civil law in this verse; the Corinthians would know by context which law he meant.

d) submission to themselves. Just as Paul told the prophets to control themselves (v. 32), he uses the same Greek word in v. 34 to say that women should be in submission; the proximity of these two uses suggests that Paul means for women to control themselves. The New American Standard Bible translates v. 34b in this way: “let them subject themselves, just as the Law says.”[12] In this case the “law” could be either Roman law or general biblical principles of decency and order.

5) Paul addresses the problem by saying, “If they want to inquire about something…” This implies that the problem in Corinth concerning the asking of questions with a desire to learn something.[13] Blomberg suggests, “Perhaps the largely uneducated women of that day were interrupting proceedings with irrelevant questions that would be better dealt with in their homes.”[14] Belleville says, “Their fault was not in the asking per se but in the inappropriate setting for their questions.”[15]

6) Paul says that the women “should ask their own husbands at home.”[16] This may imply that the problems were caused primarily by women who were married to Christian men.[17] Grudem is probably right in suggesting that Paul “assumes that the Corinthians can make appropriate applications for single women [or those married to pagans], who would no doubt know some men they could talk to after the service.”[18] Paul is giving “husbands at home” as an illustration, not as a limitation on who can answer and where they must be. For example, it would be permissible to ask questions while walking home, or of other women, or of other men.[19] Paul’s main point is, Don’t talk in church, not even to ask questions.

7) Paul says that it is “disgraceful” for women to talk in church. This word appeals to the Corinthians’ own sense of social propriety. He is saying that church custom (v. 33b), the law (v. 34), and social expectations (v. 35) all prohibit women from talking in church.[20] The questions themselves are not wrong, for they can be asked at home, but it is disorderly to ask them in the worship service.

8) It is not clear whether “as in all the congregations of the saints” (v. 33b) introduces this topic, or concludes the previous one. Linda Belleville notes that in the other places Paul appeals to the practice of other churches, it is at the end of the discussion (1 Cor. 4:17; 7:17; 11:16), and it is redundant to have “in the churches” both in the introductory clause and at the end of the same sentence. As she notes, “‘Let the women…’ is a typical Pauline start to a new paragraph.”[21] However, this does not seem to affect the interpretation of the verses. Either way, it seems that other churches were already doing what Paul wanted the Corinthians to do.



Church, law, and society

Paul has already indicated that women can pray and prophesy in church (chapter 11), and a worship service includes two or three people prophesying in turn (14:29-32). This means that it is permissible for women to have formal speaking roles in the church. Paul was apparently forbidding some other type of speech. Just as he did not allow tongue-speakers or prophets to speak out of turn, he did not want women to speak out of turn, saying things in such a way that they were breaking social customs about what is appropriate.

Paul appealed to church custom, the law, and cultural expectations; we will consider how each of these is relevant to the problem that Paul is dealing with.

1) We know very little about how first-century churches functioned, except for what the New Testament tells us—and the picture is one of variety. Some churches were led by apostles and elders; others by prophets and teachers; some by overseers or elders or deacons. Although we know the names of a number of influential men and women, we can associate those names with specific titles in only a few cases. We know even less about how a typical worship service was conducted; 1 Cor. 14 is the primary evidence.

2) We have surveyed the Old Testament, and find no prohibition on women speaking in public.[22] Scripture provides examples of women who had leadership roles in civil government, in publicly praising God, and in giving authoritative answers about spiritual matters to male civil leaders (e.g., Deborah, Miriam, and Huldah). Scripture does not require all women to submit to all men. The problem in Corinth probably involved either a) wives speaking against or dishonoring their husbands,[23] or b) more generally, women acting disorderly and for that reason considered “not in submission.” The “law” that Paul mentions may be a civil law, or a New Testament rule.

3) In Greco-Roman society, women were given authority in the household, but rarely had opportunity for public speaking. Craig Keener notes a typical expectation: “Plutarch goes on to explain that a woman’s talk should also be kept private within the home…she ‘ought to do her talking either to her husband or through her husband.’”[24] The average woman was less educated and had little experience in public assemblies; this may have contributed to the problem in Corinth.[25]

It is sometimes suggested that synagogues had separate seating for men and women, and that the early church continued this custom—hence when women asked questions of the men, it was necessary to shout across a barrier, and that is why Paul prohibited such questions in church. Although the hypothesis is attractive because it would provide a motive for Paul’s directives, there is little proof for gender-separated seating for first-century synagogues.[26]



Weighing the prophecies

Several scholars have argued that Paul is saying that women should not be involved in the “weighing” of prophetic messages (v. 29)—only men may determine whether a message is in accordance with sound doctrine.[27] In this view, men and women may prophesy, but only men may comment on the validity of the prophecies, because only men have that authority. This interpretation has the advantage of keeping vv. 34-35 on the same subject as the rest of the chapter: the orderly use of spiritual gifts.[28] In keeping with this view, they say that women may speak in church but (based largely on 1 Tim 2:12) may not have authority.

This interpretation has become almost unanimous among traditionalist scholars. They argue that prophecy (an unplanned comment) is not as authoritative as teaching (an explanation of Scripture); women can speak prophecies but should not have “ecclesiastical authority” in which they have the responsibility to teach or judge in an official way what men say.

Several points may be noted against this view:

1) When Paul says that “the others” should weigh what is said (v. 29), he may mean the entire congregation or the other prophets—either of which would have included females. Keener suggests that the “others” who weigh (diakrinō) the prophecies would be people with the gift of discernment (diakrisis) (12:10), but he notes that nothing suggests that only males are given this gift.[29]

2) When Paul wrote that they should “weigh carefully what is said,” it is by no means clear that he is advocating a formal discussion and pronouncement by leaders of the church. Rather, his meaning might more simply be that each person should think about whether the saying is true, much as people today might during sermons.[30] Verses 34-35 are hardly an adequate explanation of “how to proceed with ‘let the others weigh what is said.’”[31]

3) There is no evidence that “all the congregations of the saints” had any procedure for evaluating prophecies—or that this was done in any other church. None of the early interpreters suggested that vv. 34-35 are guidelines for evaluating prophecy.[32]

4) Paul nowhere suggests that the weighing of prophecies, or discerning of spirits, is more authoritative than prophecy. Rather, throughout 1 Cor. 14 he extols prophecy as the most useful gift.

5) These scholars have reversed the natural meaning of v. 35, which suggests that the women want to learn something by asking questions. In contrast, these scholars say that the problem is that the women were expressing a judgment. It would be of dubious value for a woman with the gift of discernment to withhold her reservations about the message until she got home, where she would share her thoughts with her husband, who might not have the gift of discernment.[33]

6) It seems that worship services in Corinth were chaotic; they probably did not have a time designated for evaluating prophetic messages, so it is doubtful that Paul is addressing problems that the Corinthians already had with this evaluation time—nor is there evidence that Paul is anticipating a hypothetical objection. Verses 34-35 indicate that the problem concerned comments and questions that the women were making, perhaps to everyone at once, or to specific men.[34]

7) In the Grudem-Hurley view, it would not be insubordinate for a woman to ask questions or make comments about the prophecy given by a woman. But Paul does not address such a possibility.

8) Paul’s call for women to be quiet comes five verses after he says that prophecies should be evaluated, and it uses a different verb. Paul does nothing to connect v. 34 with v. 29. Verses 34-35 may not be on the topic of spiritual gifts, but they are about order in the worship service, and it is not unreasonable for Paul to include these verses in this chapter, and then conclude his discussion of spiritual gifts in v. 36.

It is reasonable to suggest that Paul is prohibiting the same kind of speech that he prohibits for tongues-speakers and prophets: out-of-turn speaking. While someone has the podium, the others should be quiet, not making loud comments, not calling out questions (no matter how well intentioned[35]), and not having their own conversations, for any of those would be disgraceful in the eyes of the public, contrary to what God wants, and contrary to the way that other congregations functioned.[36]

Ben Witherington suggests the following possibility: “It is very believable that these women assumed that Christian prophets or prophetesses functioned much like the oracle at Delphi, who only prophesied in response to questions, including questions about purely personal matters. Paul argues that Christian prophecy is different: Prophets and prophetesses speak in response to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, without any human priming of the pump. Paul then limits such questions to another location, namely home. He may imply that the husband or man who was to be asked was either a prophet or at least able to answer such questions at a more appropriate time.”[37]



Noisy women

We believe that the “noisy meeting” theory makes sense of the biblical data: Women were disturbing the meeting in some way.[38] However, Hurley criticizes this view, and we will respond to his objections:

1) “There is no indication elsewhere in the letter that the women in particular were unruly.”[39] We believe that this objection is not valid. An analysis of chapter 11 shows that women were the primary problem; Paul gives fewer supporting arguments for the way that men should appear, suggesting that he believes there is a greater need to correct the way women pray and prophesy.

2) “Paul does confront unruly situations in the letter (11:33-34; 14:27,29,31). He meets them by establishing order rather than by silencing the unruly completely.” This is true, but it says nothing against the noisy meeting theory. No one believes that Paul silenced women completely.[40] The silence he commanded for women was a temporary silence, just as it was for prophets and tongues-speakers; the goal of all these commands was an orderly worship service.

3) “The rule which Paul sets out is one which he says applies in all his churches (14:33b). It seems unlikely that the problem of noisy women had arisen in all of them.” However, Paul does not say that a rule had to be given in all the churches—it is enough that the churches were already doing what theology and culture said was proper. No matter how the problem is defined, it seems unlikely that the same problem had arisen in all the churches—if it had been that common, Paul would have given the Corinthians some guidance on it when he established the church in Corinth, and on this matter he does not allude to any prior teaching.[41] Most churches were already orderly.[42]

4) “It seems unlike Paul to silence all women because some are noisy or disruptive. His actual handling of other disorderly people provides concrete grounds for arguing against wholesale action when only some individuals are in fact violators.” This objection is groundless. Paul sometimes gives commands to an entire group even when it is unlikely that every member of the group had a problem:

In 1 Tim. 5:11, he writes as if all younger widows are unable to control their desires to be married; in Titus 1:12 he writes as if everyone on Crete is a lazy glutton. In 1 Tim. 2:8, he instructs men to pray “without anger or disputing.” Apparently the problem about prayer in Ephesus was caused only by men, and probably only by some of them, so Paul gave instructions only for the men; in the same way, the problem with talking in Corinth happened to be caused by women. Paul was writing to specific churches, dealing with specific situations, not trying to write manuals for all churches in all times. Paul sometimes wrote principles that are of universal validity, but other instructions are an application of timeless truth to a specific situation.

Even in Hurley’s interpretation, Paul was too sweeping in his prohibition—he forbids all questions because some of them might not be submissive. However, Paul’s command is quite reasonable if we understand Paul to be addressing a general commotion: People should not disrupt the service. Paul assumed that the Corinthians could figure out, just as we do today, that whispering is permissible, and that a woman can ask the pastor, not just her own husband. It is not disgraceful for women to pray and prophesy in church, but it is disgraceful for them (or anyone else) to cause a commotion, and that is Paul’s main concern.



Conclusion

Although we cannot answer all questions about the specific situation Paul was addressing in Corinth, we do conclude that he was addressing a specific situation rather than making a general prohibition on women speaking in church. His intent was to prohibit disruptive and disrespectful questions and comments that were part of the chaotic Corinthian meetings—and in Corinth, these particular practices were coming from the women. Just as he told the disorderly tongues-speakers and prophets to control themselves because God is not a God of disorder, he also told the women to control themselves because the law teaches self-control. If they want to learn something, they can ask questions somewhere else.[43]

Only one person should speak at a time. Everyone else, whether male or female, should be quiet, for it is disgraceful for people in the audience to be talking while someone else is speaking to the group. Just as Paul’s call for tongues-speakers or prophets to be silent should not be turned into a demand that they never say anything at all, so also his call for women to be quiet should not be turned into a demand that they never give messages of spiritual value in church. That is something that Paul specifically allows in chapter 11.

I'm sure I will be set straight by Jesus (the Judger) when the time comes.
Kat

Your message is way to long heartsoul.
this is likely one of the reasons!

any humor in the "post is too long," comment is lost on me ><

Ohhhh Nooooo You DIDN'T....That was as sexist as it gets.
Kat

miles if u read the bible word by word. u r missing a lot.
the historical and cultural context have to be always considered.
now the catholic church has taken these verses word by word.
My personal view is that women can preach. As matter of fact most of them preach everyday through their example.