it's about 1 hour from the OP
nice and clean waves

bl8ant you continue to harp on the fact that only a small number of Americans have passports like that was a bad thing. There are several reasons for that.

1. Many Americans visited places outside this country where passports were not required while in the Military.

2. Travel to our neighbors, Canada and Mexico, did not require a passport.

3. When you live in the best place on Earth, you may not want to travel far and wide to see the ancient cesspools or the world. Places where they urinate in the street, France, places where they use untreated sewage for fertilizer, most of Europe and the Orient.

4. Many people don't want to travel thousands of miles to places where they treat you badly and take your money, we can get that at home in a language most of us understand.

5. As fanta, I think, pointed out there is the distance thing. It is much farther for us to go to Europe than it is for people who live there to go to one of their neighboring countires. You can drive for a few hours in Europe and see several countires. Here you can drive for 2 days and still be in Texas.

6. In Europe you can travel from country to country via car, bus or train, for us to get to Europe, we have 3 options, boat, plane or swim.

You somehow feel that travel enlightens a person but from your venomous posts all of you travel does not seem to have helped you much, it has only made you more bitter.

......"bl8ant you continue to harp on the fact that only a small number of Americans have passports like that was a bad thing. There are several reasons for that. "

i have NEVER SAID ONE WORD ABOUT PASSPORTS!! or about any number of people having or not having them.


so please be careful who you quote.



as for being bitter, only towards the level of stupidity and ignorance i read from narrow minded, belief addicted, mentalities

bl8ant,

Someone else was logged in as you and was talking about Passports.

THERE IS NO AMERICAN BASHING! GET OVER IT!!!

Whether it is from the inside, or the outside of you country, there is a more or less vocal attempt at deflating this hyperventilated false sense of exclusive superior self-worth, coming from some of you (yes you're a monority!), and the phenomenon has been enhanced by having the ambassador of your club in the White House for the past seven years.

Nothing wrong with being a pround US citizen. But it's no better nor worse than being a proud English, Autralian , Spanish, French, Chinese or Iranian citizen!!! There is no 'good' or 'bad' measuring stick.

There is only onthe one hand ...
... the primitive pursuit of 'self-interests', which always causes prejudices to others (serving your self interests, in your private, or in our public lives, is always at the cost of others),

or on the other hand ...

... the enlightened pursuit of common values and interests. If
your so-called 'freedom' and the definition YOU give it, is important to YOU, it is exactly the same for your brothers in the Middle-East, Africa, or China.

If your national sovereignty is legitimately non-negociable, why should you expect it to be any different of Irakis, Palestinians or Iranians.

Give-up on the imposition of your self interests on the rest of the world, and collaborate instead to seek out common interests in all endeavours, and watch how fast American bashing and terrorism come to a halt!!!

I am not suggesting any form of compromises on univerasal values which we promote and defend!!! I don't suggest falling to our knees, as some neanderthal xenophobic type would fire back. I sugest the essential honesty to stop wrapping 'our' self-interests in universal virtuous camouflage. It's a dishonest and unworthy road to travel.

If there is bashing, it is bashing against the dishonest rethoric of some: 'hyperventilated false sense of exclusive superior self-worth'.

Not against the USA, nor its people as a whole.


**************************************************************

Descriptive of the 'hyperventilated false sense of exclusive superior self-worth' syndrome:

This ludicrous, "... the world is going to dance to the US tune, and way of seiing things, or it's not going to dance at all!!!.
This notion that the US gets to say what is right and wrong with he world. This "...walk tall with the biggest stick syndrome", and impose your way.
This "... you're with us or you're against us syndrome".

All primitive and tribal instincts providing a false sense of security against illusive 'ennemies'.

A large 'minority' of people around th globe, including a whole bunch of US citizens, have long understood that these tribal intincts are the source of all hostilities.
This "...dominate or be dominated" unconscious and exclusive perspective (paradigm) of 'being' in the world, is a perfect corelate to the 'PYROMANIAC-FIREMAN'!!!

Thanks 'gardenforge'!!!

While I was writing a 'Descriptive of the 'hyperventilated false sense of exclusive superior self-worth' syndrome (FSESSW), which some US citizens among others, suffer from, you were posting the following statements, which illustrate the syndrome far better than anything I could have come up with:

You wrote:

"... 3. When you live in the best place on Earth (FSESSW), you may not want to travel far and wide to see the ancient cesspools or the world (just plain ignorance).
Places where they urinate in the street, France (just plain ignorance), places where they use untreated sewage for fertilizer, most of Europe and the Orient (you're right 'garden': stay home, and lock her up).

4. Many people don't want to travel thousands of miles to places where they treat you badly and take your money, we can get that at home in a language most of us understand (you might want to revisit this piece?!!? The US wins this contest hands down wherever you find yourself on the planet!).

Thanks again 'garden'. With all due respect, you're by far my favorite 'pyromaniac-fireman'!!!

:)

Lol this is like banging your head against a wall!!! I can see the close mindedness and refusal to accept too often here. What a life to live with your head in the sand!!!

Hey 'garden',

Just looking out for you!

I know how upsetting it is for you when people use personal insults or attacks when they have no intelligent counter-arguments to keep the debate rolling.

Given that I share the same principle right along with you, I figured I would look out for our common interest and point something out to you.

I've observed a flaw in the way you defend this worthy and diginified principle of ours. It would appear that you apply it only to your Republican friends. I suggest you should make all attempts to extend our shared principle (no personal insults or attacks) to all: republicans, democrats, independents, and people from all other nations and denominations.

Point in hand, to help you clearly identify the flaw, and get back on track with the promotion of our common worthwhile principle, dear collaborator, I offer to you the comments you made, which you directed at 'bl8ant' personnally.

In reference to 'bl8ant' personnally, you wrote:

"... You somehow feel that travel enlightens a person but from your venomous posts all of you travel does not seem to have helped you much, it has only made you more bitter."

Now if we were to endorse your personal attacks on 'bl8ant', some might be tempted to even out the field with personnal attacks on your own person 'garden'.
A bit like, this 'closed minded', 'emperor has no clothes', 'one-sided', 'pontificating' and 'arrogant' style some people might lend you, and consider it equally venimous and bitter, as you seem to accuse 'bl8ant'. It throws the debate to the dark ages. Nothing to forward the debate in any way.

Now, I trust your intentions are pure 'garden'.

I know deep inside, that you would never intentionnaly personnally insult, or systematically block out what appears to you like seemingly 'liberal' thinking, (all socialists and anti-americans as you sometimes so erroneously name-call them).
I know you are capable of objectivism, even though you have fun trying to make us believe in this 'redneck subjective and one track mind' personna.

No sir!!! I don't buy it.

I know you have it in you to answer and couter-argue intelligently with 'bl8ant' instead of lashing out with tribal 'back to the cave woman!!!' statements.

I trust you are sufficiently solid in your own self worth as a man, that you wouldn't be one of those that would be intimidated by a brilliant, incredibly generous, world travelled, most accomplished professional, inspiring woman (human being), whom stops at nothing to say it the way it is for her, just like you 'garden'!!!

So go ahead! Reply intelligently as I'm sure you can, and keep the debate rolling!!!


Looking out for you,

Voileazur.

As an aside,

The intent of my previous post was not to come to the defense of 'bl8ant'. She is sooooo capable of doing that on her own, and muh better than I or any of us ever could.

The sole intent was to point out the 'jerk-knee' tribal reactions a lot of us demonstrate in some of our replies, which highjack otherwise 'perspective altering for the better' debates. This kind of
'anything that doens't fit in the existing 'small box' outlook',
is systematically and violently rejected as a contaminant or virus would be.

Opposing thoughts and perspectives to ours, aren't viruses. And the people writing or speaking them are not EVIL!!!
Conducting ourselves in that manner simply exposes a close-minded attitude, and shuts off any possibility of a debate (objective and 'mutual' exchange of diffeent convictions and opinions).

Woops!!!

"... The sole intent was to point out the...
'jerk-knee'
... tribal reactions."

That would be 'knee-jerk'.

hahaha thank you voil for elaborating on my small sentence!!!

Garden ...

For a start, IF you had read what the post actually said and IF you had understood it, then you would have used the intelligence you allege to have and realised that I wrote all that.

Why would anyone else quote the address for 10 Downing Street as ours if they werent British?

"I regularly balance my kickings of the UK" also give you a small clue as to the nationality of the poster ...

If you had then read the next post under it and the following pages then you would have realised what was going on.

All you seem to do is strike out and you fail to ask the questions that will give you the answers.

Due to my stupidity you struck the wrong target and just showed how incapable you are at understanding the bigger picture.

and ironically, i didn't even make the post he was refering to.

and if one reads a little further, Duncan realizes it and shudders at the consequences

and so he should

i could not take offense as i honestly had not seen Duncan's post yet and only in confusion did i scroll back and see my IDENTITY had been appropriated once again!

ok Duncan, 3 times and .......


the CELLAR




Voilazure,

indeed ...the simplest truth , is disguised in the most elaborate of costumes... and we seem to delight in this dressing and undressing !!!




if anyone gets what i mean, you will

'bl8ant',

LOUD AND CLEAR!!!

It is pure bliss to ride on the coat tails of your cleansing 'tornado'!!!

:)

I may have underdressed for the occasion. I feel it's getting a bit windy in here.

I really dont see how calling her posts what they are being a personal attack on bl8ant and her biased self serving hatred of this country is anyting but enlightened. As they say attack the message but not the messenger.

Walks in looks around!

Dang would you look at the **** gypsy stirred up!!!

I did not have sexual relations with that woman!!!!

Geeeeeeeez why do I get blamed for everything???

'garden',

You wrote:

'... I really dont see how calling her posts what they are...'
That's just it 'garden', it's NOT what they are!!! For it to be '... WHAT THEY ARE!!!', you'd have to be GOD!!! Now I,m willing to play along with this delusion of 'pontificate' you seem to what to entertain, but that's as far as I'll go. If you start claiming 'godhood', you're alone on this one.


You wrote earlier:
'... but from your venomous posts...'
where are the posts (messages) you're referring to? I only see venomous clearly referring to 'bl8ant' (messenger), as for the presumed posts (messages), NOT there !!! Follow the dialectic breakdown: ATTACK ON THE MESSENGER!!!


Here is another gem:
'... all of you travel does not seem to have helped you much, it has only made you more bitter.'
Again, I think that is a derogatory comment (attack) on bl8ant. I doubt bitter would be meant as a compliment. Very arbitrary, and unsubstantiated, and very much pointed at the person. Personal attack again 'garden'.

And you wrote the winner in the following form:
"... on bl8ant and her biased self serving hatred of this country."
Again 'garden' very clear you are directing this at the messenger, and no message in sight. And where do you get all these big words from: HATRED? How does that forward a debate?

You need to clarify the 'message' / 'messenger' distinction for yourself 'garden'. I say this because I know you are sincere about the principles you claim to defend.

You'll get it right eventually I'm sure.

check the one on the thread about the twin towers and 9/11 a couple days ago.