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| Topic: Why do People Vote Against Freedom? | |
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there is no absolute RIGHT that has NO EXCEPTION< because in a world of billions, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to give EVERYONE rights that would never end up infringing upon someone elses right A "right" is inherent. It is not "given" to you by anyone and that includes a society or a government. I have a right to live. (Since I am not a slave, you cannot legally kill me. If I were a slave, you may be able to legally kill me, but it is immoral to do so.) If you believe in a God, then I will say that our rights are God given. Society or government does not give me any rights. God does. As far as abortion is concerned, you can say that abortion is immoral if that is what you believe. However, society says it is legal. If that is the case, then we live in and support an immoral society. if a 'right' has not been given, than how can it be taken away its a vague idea that has no real definition from which we can have a discussion in that case,,,, Rights are taken away by tyranny and criminal behavior. If I have a right to live and someone kills me then my right has been taken away. The right to live is inherent and given by God. That is why they will let a person die naturally rather than end their life with euthanasia. God has not given 'rights' where is that idea from? God , for those who believe in God, creates 'life' in the womb,, yet MAN decides at what point that LIFE has a 'right to live' we have ACTIONS and actions have consequences, no action is an absolute 'right' no action is free from consequence, either natural or man made Even as an Agnostic, I see the Value of Rights coming from Somethig Beyond Government; even the Right to Overthrow the Government if it becomes Abusive - thus the Need for the Right to Keep & Bear Arms. I have the Right to Enter into Contracts to Buy and Sell Goods & Services as I see Fit and People that I deal with have the Right to Accept or Reject what I Offer as They See Fit; then Enters the Government to say, You Have to Pay/Accept Wages at a Certain Level, You May Not Buy This or That Product, or You Must Spend Your Money on This, or Sign This Contract; At the Point of a Gun the Government Mandates What People on their Own Accord Wouldn't Ask For. |
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I return from using the word right other than how or where it is defined by law,,,,
I use the word CAPACITY I have the capacity to enter contracts, doesn't mean I am always within my legal right to do so though,, I have the capacity to toss trash in my front yard, but doesn't mean I will always be within my legal right to do so,,,, etc. ,etc, etc |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 03/24/13 03:30 PM
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and thus you consent to your own enslavement......when you give someone the right to tell you can do something, you give them the right to tell you you can't as well. Only way to be truly free is never to give someone such authority that is unwarranted. Don't do that and you agree to be a slave, no matter if you know it or not.
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Sun 03/24/13 03:35 PM
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and thus you consent to your own enslavement......when you give someone the right to tell you can do something, you give them the right to tell you you can't as well. Only way to be truly free is never to give someone such authority that is unwarranted. Do that and you agree to be a slave, no matter if you know it or not. well , that's life I learned at an early age I Cant do whatever I want, nor did I grow up to feel like I was 'enslaved' because of it I live in a society, and the community matters every bit as much as my individual and immediate gratification,,, someone tells us what is accepted and what is not,, always will and that's life too we decide whats important to us and what things we can accept potential consequences for that's life too slavery doesn't mean any presence of consequence or boundaries, that's actually the definition of chaos |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 03/24/13 03:49 PM
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and thus you consent to your own enslavement......when you give someone the right to tell you can do something, you give them the right to tell you you can't as well. Only way to be truly free is never to give someone such authority that is unwarranted. Do that and you agree to be a slave, no matter if you know it or not. well , that's life I learned at an early age I Cant do whatever I want, nor did I grow up to feel like I was 'enslaved' because of it I live in a society, and the community matters every bit as much as my individual and immediate gratification,,, someone tells us what is accepted and what is not,, always will and that's life too we decide whats important to us and what things we can accept potential consequences for that's life too slavery doesn't mean any presence of consequence or boundaries, that's actually the definition of chaos It's only chaos if one is afraid to have to take actual responsibility for themselves instead of relying on laws to do it for them. And please stop with the idea that in a free society, there is no consequences or no boundaries, that's totally twisting the argument to support you. Of course someone can't kill someone, rob from them, or in any other way do them harm, and there is a natural consequence and boundary there....no one is saying those restrictions shouldn't be in place. But those are the ONLY ones that need exist, when it comes to personal rights, none should. Finally, if you believe life means others get to tell you what is acceptable based on their own personal bias, well frankly you deserve to be a slave, because you bring it on yourself by letting that stand. Again I will say to you......who is TRULY the ego centric people? The ones wanting to be free personally, or those that wanna control them? |
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and thus you consent to your own enslavement......when you give someone the right to tell you can do something, you give them the right to tell you you can't as well. Only way to be truly free is never to give someone such authority that is unwarranted. Do that and you agree to be a slave, no matter if you know it or not. well , that's life I learned at an early age I Cant do whatever I want, nor did I grow up to feel like I was 'enslaved' because of it I live in a society, and the community matters every bit as much as my individual and immediate gratification,,, someone tells us what is accepted and what is not,, always will and that's life too we decide whats important to us and what things we can accept potential consequences for that's life too slavery doesn't mean any presence of consequence or boundaries, that's actually the definition of chaos Frederick Douglass learned that there Consequences to listening and not listening to the advice of others. In his Autobios, the Advice he often got from other Slaves was that Running Away wasn't a Good Thing because Only Master Could Provide; he rejected that advice, and we all give thanks that he did. He was told Not to Name Names in his First Autobio, he did and had to Flee to England to remain Free, from where his Freedom was bought and he was given the money to start his own Paper; against the advise of his Fellow Abolitionist. He was advised to "Trust the Better Educated Abolitionist", even that of the Black Abolitionist who Grew Up in the North and attended the Universities; he Turned Down that Advice and became one of the Most Powerful Advocates Against Slavery & Jim Crow. There were times he paid a steep and painful price for Not Listening to the Advice given by others, even lost some Dear Friends over it; But he Moved Mountains by Deciding for Himself how to Live His Own Life. |
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Edited by
JustDukkyMkII
on
Sun 03/24/13 05:12 PM
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Murder has nothing to do with a right... Murder has EVERYTHING to do with a right!...It is the deliberate malefic infringement on the RIGHT of another to live. if a 'right' has not been given, than how can it be taken away its a vague idea that has no real definition from which we can have a discussion in that case,,,, There is nothing whatever vague or undefined about it, except as you choose not to see the truth. In the absence of harmful action, your rights are intact and you have them. IF your action causes harm to an other, then you have INFRINGED on a right that they have. You have a natural DUTY to honour the rights of the others in your society. Failure in that duty is a crime. It's really quite simple; rights and duties go hand in hand; you can only claim a right that will be recognized and honoured by the other reasonable and compassionate people in your community. You can't claim the right to murder, because no reasonable or compassionate human being would recognize it. They would see it instead as a failure in your duty to observe the right of another and the infringement of that right s/he possesses. You only have the rights you claim if they are recognized, but there are rights you don't have to claim because they are assumed to exist. These "natural rights" are "granted" by your society and need not be claimed...These are your inherent, or "natural rights" that we all have, owing to what might be called the "implied social contract", also known as "natural law." Geeze!...What do I have to do?...Send some people back to kindergarten to learn the law? IM well past kindergarten logic, and all the vague descriptions still do little to truly define a 'right' what a 'reasonable and compassionate' person would recognize rights that are 'granted' but need not be 'claimed' all of this is vague and ambiguous, and not a clear definition of much of anything except that a right is apparently not an 'absolute' but something with quite a few qualifiers,,,, ...Then you have absolutely no concept of, and are (willfully?) ignorant of the law...What is your excuse?...I'm pretty sure you have none. another vague response care to actually 'explain' what the 'law' is exactly,,,...which I supposedly dont have a concept of? seems to me the whole debate centers around what some believe should be 'law' and what others dont and what is actually the current WRITTEN and documented legislation,,, There is nothing vague about it to anyone but you...Doesn't that in itself say something? If I have to explain the law to you, then you admit to being ignorant of it and as the maxim of law states, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." The only people who are ignorant of the law are totally incompetent and must be cared for and watched by the society they live in so they don't hurt themselves or others. This is called our "duty to care", which is another "vague" definition you'd probably like to debate. There is no "debate" to centre around; there is only your wish to ceaselessly and irrationally debate that which is blatantly obvious to a reasoning mind. Hang what is written!...Quite obviously, the law pre-exists the writing of it and legislation is NOT law. It is only the rules and regulations given FORCE of law within the society governed by the legislators. (and you CANNOT be compelled to belong to ANY society...If you are, that is a tyranny!) someone tells us what is accepted and what is not... That someone is your OWNER...If that someone is not you, then you don't own yourself and are therefore the property of another, which is by definition, a slave. |
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because with freedom comes responsibities |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 03/24/13 08:08 PM
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Murder has nothing to do with a right... Murder has EVERYTHING to do with a right!...It is the deliberate malefic infringement on the RIGHT of another to live. if a 'right' has not been given, than how can it be taken away its a vague idea that has no real definition from which we can have a discussion in that case,,,, There is nothing whatever vague or undefined about it, except as you choose not to see the truth. In the absence of harmful action, your rights are intact and you have them. IF your action causes harm to an other, then you have INFRINGED on a right that they have. You have a natural DUTY to honour the rights of the others in your society. Failure in that duty is a crime. It's really quite simple; rights and duties go hand in hand; you can only claim a right that will be recognized and honoured by the other reasonable and compassionate people in your community. You can't claim the right to murder, because no reasonable or compassionate human being would recognize it. They would see it instead as a failure in your duty to observe the right of another and the infringement of that right s/he possesses. You only have the rights you claim if they are recognized, but there are rights you don't have to claim because they are assumed to exist. These "natural rights" are "granted" by your society and need not be claimed...These are your inherent, or "natural rights" that we all have, owing to what might be called the "implied social contract", also known as "natural law." Geeze!...What do I have to do?...Send some people back to kindergarten to learn the law? IM well past kindergarten logic, and all the vague descriptions still do little to truly define a 'right' what a 'reasonable and compassionate' person would recognize rights that are 'granted' but need not be 'claimed' all of this is vague and ambiguous, and not a clear definition of much of anything except that a right is apparently not an 'absolute' but something with quite a few qualifiers,,,, ...Then you have absolutely no concept of, and are (willfully?) ignorant of the law...What is your excuse?...I'm pretty sure you have none. another vague response care to actually 'explain' what the 'law' is exactly,,,...which I supposedly dont have a concept of? seems to me the whole debate centers around what some believe should be 'law' and what others dont and what is actually the current WRITTEN and documented legislation,,, There is nothing vague about it to anyone but you...Doesn't that in itself say something? If I have to explain the law to you, then you admit to being ignorant of it and as the maxim of law states, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." The only people who are ignorant of the law are totally incompetent and must be cared for and watched by the society they live in so they don't hurt themselves or others. This is called our "duty to care", which is another "vague" definition you'd probably like to debate. There is no "debate" to centre around; there is only your wish to ceaselessly and irrationally debate that which is blatantly obvious to a reasoning mind. Hang what is written!...Quite obviously, the law pre-exists the writing of it and legislation is NOT law. It is only the rules and regulations given FORCE of law within the society governed by the legislators. (and you CANNOT be compelled to belong to ANY society...If you are, that is a tyranny!) someone tells us what is accepted and what is not... That someone is your OWNER...If that someone is not you, then you don't own yourself and are therefore the property of another, which is by definition, a slave. JustDukkyMkII, Thanks you said what I was thinking. There is nothing vague about the authentic rule of law and our inherent (God given) rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to anyone in this thread but Msharmony. Msharmony I guess you will wait patiently to hear from your government to find out whether you have the right to "live" and "be free." If they tell you no, then I guess you will surrender your life and freedom over to your masters at their request, like a good obedient slave. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 03/24/13 09:09 PM
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There is nothing vague about the authentic rule of law and our inherent (God given) rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to anyone in this thread but Msharmony. Msharmony I guess you will wait patiently to hear from your government to find out whether you have the right to "live" and "be free." If they tell you no, then I guess you will surrender your life and freedom over to your masters at their request, like a good obedient slave. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000214.htm |
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Murder has nothing to do with a right... Murder has EVERYTHING to do with a right!...It is the deliberate malefic infringement on the RIGHT of another to live. if a 'right' has not been given, than how can it be taken away its a vague idea that has no real definition from which we can have a discussion in that case,,,, There is nothing whatever vague or undefined about it, except as you choose not to see the truth. In the absence of harmful action, your rights are intact and you have them. IF your action causes harm to an other, then you have INFRINGED on a right that they have. You have a natural DUTY to honour the rights of the others in your society. Failure in that duty is a crime. It's really quite simple; rights and duties go hand in hand; you can only claim a right that will be recognized and honoured by the other reasonable and compassionate people in your community. You can't claim the right to murder, because no reasonable or compassionate human being would recognize it. They would see it instead as a failure in your duty to observe the right of another and the infringement of that right s/he possesses. You only have the rights you claim if they are recognized, but there are rights you don't have to claim because they are assumed to exist. These "natural rights" are "granted" by your society and need not be claimed...These are your inherent, or "natural rights" that we all have, owing to what might be called the "implied social contract", also known as "natural law." Geeze!...What do I have to do?...Send some people back to kindergarten to learn the law? IM well past kindergarten logic, and all the vague descriptions still do little to truly define a 'right' what a 'reasonable and compassionate' person would recognize rights that are 'granted' but need not be 'claimed' all of this is vague and ambiguous, and not a clear definition of much of anything except that a right is apparently not an 'absolute' but something with quite a few qualifiers,,,, ...Then you have absolutely no concept of, and are (willfully?) ignorant of the law...What is your excuse?...I'm pretty sure you have none. another vague response care to actually 'explain' what the 'law' is exactly,,,...which I supposedly dont have a concept of? seems to me the whole debate centers around what some believe should be 'law' and what others dont and what is actually the current WRITTEN and documented legislation,,, There is nothing vague about it to anyone but you...Doesn't that in itself say something? If I have to explain the law to you, then you admit to being ignorant of it and as the maxim of law states, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." The only people who are ignorant of the law are totally incompetent and must be cared for and watched by the society they live in so they don't hurt themselves or others. This is called our "duty to care", which is another "vague" definition you'd probably like to debate. There is no "debate" to centre around; there is only your wish to ceaselessly and irrationally debate that which is blatantly obvious to a reasoning mind. Hang what is written!...Quite obviously, the law pre-exists the writing of it and legislation is NOT law. It is only the rules and regulations given FORCE of law within the society governed by the legislators. (and you CANNOT be compelled to belong to ANY society...If you are, that is a tyranny!) someone tells us what is accepted and what is not... That someone is your OWNER...If that someone is not you, then you don't own yourself and are therefore the property of another, which is by definition, a slave. JustDukkyMkII, Thanks you said what I was thinking. There is nothing vague about the authentic rule of law and our inherent (God given) rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to anyone in this thread but Msharmony. Msharmony I guess you will wait patiently to hear from your government to find out whether you have the right to "live" and "be free." If they tell you no, then I guess you will surrender your life and freedom over to your masters at their request, like a good obedient slave. nope, I understand the laws and their reasons, and I do what I choose to do I live every moment my heart continues to beat, I am free every moment that I am able to make a choice for myself escaping or demanding no consequence for my choice, does not make me any more 'free there will be consequences whatever I do , I can live with the reasonable social consequences as well as I can the 'natural' ones,,, I am far from a slave, I am an adult, I do what I want within reason based upon what is REASONABLE in consideration of others and society,,,, if having laws makes you feel like a slave,,,I dont know what to tell you having no laws would be chaos,,, |
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There is nothing vague about the authentic rule of law and our inherent (God given) rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to anyone in this thread but Msharmony. Msharmony I guess you will wait patiently to hear from your government to find out whether you have the right to "live" and "be free." If they tell you no, then I guess you will surrender your life and freedom over to your masters at their request, like a good obedient slave. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000214.htm I am free, I am free to choose my action and behavior, and with that choice, choose their consequences,,, |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 03/24/13 09:22 PM
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There is nothing vague about the authentic rule of law and our inherent (God given) rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to anyone in this thread but Msharmony. Msharmony I guess you will wait patiently to hear from your government to find out whether you have the right to "live" and "be free." If they tell you no, then I guess you will surrender your life and freedom over to your masters at their request, like a good obedient slave. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000214.htm I am free, I am free to choose my action and behavior, and with that choice, choose their consequences,,, Wrong, you're not free to choose actions or consequences if you let someone else dictate them for you. You said it yourself, you allow others to tell you what's acceptable or what isn't. If you think that means freedom, you are have no idea what it means at all. Go look at that site and educate yourself. |
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There is nothing vague about the authentic rule of law and our inherent (God given) rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to anyone in this thread but Msharmony. Msharmony I guess you will wait patiently to hear from your government to find out whether you have the right to "live" and "be free." If they tell you no, then I guess you will surrender your life and freedom over to your masters at their request, like a good obedient slave. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000214.htm I am free, I am free to choose my action and behavior, and with that choice, choose their consequences,,, Wrong, you're not free to choose actions or consequences if you let someone else dictate them for you. You said it yourself, you allow others to tell you what's acceptable or what isn't. If you think that means freedom, you are have no idea what it means at all. Go look at that site and educate yourself. my ancestors would probably disagree,, having some social expectations of acceptable behavior, is far from 'slavery' no amount of whinging will change my view of that I feel plenty free, I dont have a perfect FREEDOM, life is not perfect things can be better,,, but I am also very far from the enslaved peoples of the world before me or those still out there fearing for their lives when they speak their mind or show interest in something that is forbidden,,etc,,, we are one of the freeest people on earth, just too spoiled for it to ever be enough,,, |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 03/24/13 09:29 PM
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If that's what you wanna think.........but you still are totally clueless. Oh well....hope you enjoy your "freedom" when it's all gone.
Oh and PS.....people STILL get in trouble for speaking on certain topics.....or showing interest in certain things......so you're wrong there too. Like I said educate yourself before you speak, otherwise you just are making yourself sound really ignorant. |
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If that's what you wanna think.........but you still are totally clueless. Oh well....hope you enjoy your "freedom" when it's all gone. Oh and PS.....people STILL get in trouble for speaking on certain topics.....or showing interest in certain things......so you're wrong there too. Like I said educate yourself before you speak, otherwise you just are making yourself sound really ignorant. maybe I will sound really ignorant and maybe I will just not sound really spoiled or really paranoid or really whingy,,,, |
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If that's what you wanna think.........but you still are totally clueless. Oh well....hope you enjoy your "freedom" when it's all gone. Oh and PS.....people STILL get in trouble for speaking on certain topics.....or showing interest in certain things......so you're wrong there too. Like I said educate yourself before you speak, otherwise you just are making yourself sound really ignorant. maybe I will sound really ignorant and maybe I will just not sound really spoiled or really paranoid or really whingy,,,, If it's spoiled or paranoid to some to want government out of dictating my personal life, and for that matter anyone elses', I'm ok with that. People will see the reality of their lack of push back soon enough.......be it the easy way or the hard way. |
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 If that's what you wanna think.........but you still are totally clueless. Oh well....hope you enjoy your "freedom" when it's all gone. Oh and PS.....people STILL get in trouble for speaking on certain topics.....or showing interest in certain things......so you're wrong there too. Like I said educate yourself before you speak, otherwise you just are making yourself sound really ignorant. maybe I will sound really ignorant and maybe I will just not sound really spoiled or really paranoid or really whingy,,,, If it's spoiled or paranoid to some to want government out of dictating my personal life, and for that matter anyone elses', I'm ok with that. People will see the reality of their lack of push back soon enough.......be it the easy way or the hard way.
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If that's what you wanna think.........but you still are totally clueless. Oh well....hope you enjoy your "freedom" when it's all gone. Oh and PS.....people STILL get in trouble for speaking on certain topics.....or showing interest in certain things......so you're wrong there too. Like I said educate yourself before you speak, otherwise you just are making yourself sound really ignorant. When one calls another person clueless or ignorant, one is engaging in ad hominem. Doing so reveals that one is unable to make a good counter-argument to another person's argument. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 03/24/13 10:09 PM
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If that's what you wanna think.........but you still are totally clueless. Oh well....hope you enjoy your "freedom" when it's all gone. Oh and PS.....people STILL get in trouble for speaking on certain topics.....or showing interest in certain things......so you're wrong there too. Like I said educate yourself before you speak, otherwise you just are making yourself sound really ignorant. When one calls another person clueless or ignorant, one is engaging in ad hominem. Doing so reveals that one is unable to make a good counter-argument to another person's argument. Except I can......and I and others HAVE done so on this thread. I am simply calling it as I see it, and as I (and several others here) see it she IS unaware. Just cause I am calling her on it doesn't mean I can't argue against her. You assume something when you make a blanket statement like that that isn't always true, and you know what they say about assumptions....... |
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