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| Topic: Blood sacrifice | |
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Why is it impossible to consider the fact that the evil/wicked could and will ultimately spend ALL of eternity in Hell?
You say He died for all our sins.. ..he says all changed from Old to New Testaments. However, Jesus, throughout the Bible, has spoke more openly of the truth and validity of said place of torment. From the words of Bertrand Russel: "There is one serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching–an attitude which is common with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. . . . I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of that sort into the world. . . . I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hellfire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you take Him as His chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that." The people living in Sodom and Gomorrah. Satan. Your Hitlers and your Mansons. The Black Hand members, and many more. You state: "So long as you truly feel in your heart guilty for your false belief and your sins, you will find your way into Paradise." So, by your standards and what you've both proclaimed: ..If not to suffer eternally in Hell, where does such type of people then go? ..and sweet cherry pie.. Do we really now deem Hell as nothing more than just a Hotel Lobby?! Seriously. |
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Btw Cowboy.....Jesus did NOT " take our place" in hell. That is Incorrect. Jessu BORE our sins on the cross and paid the price in Full...on the cross. Jesus siad, "It is Finished". That means Done. Paid for IN FULL....meaning.....Jesus did NOT have to also " take our place " in hell. The meaning of Jesus descending into hell is explained below. Now....by Our believing and accepting Jesus , this PREVENTS us from going to hell..but again, Jesus did NOT have to " take our place" in hell . Here..this will clarify : ........................................................ Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?" Answer: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the PERMANENT and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a TEMPORARY place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Sheol/hades is a realm with TWO DIVISIONS (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) WITH Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The LOST SIDE of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20. Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10- 11 as translated in the King James Version, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.” Some have the viewpoint that Jesus went to “hell” or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. It was the death of Jesus on the cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9). As He hung there on the cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. He became sin for us: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross. When Jesus cried upon the cross, “Oh, Father, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46), it was then that He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46). His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to the paradise side of hades. Jesus did not go to hell. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to hell? No. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes. gotquestions.org 
No offense MorningSong. But YOU should study, learn, and teach/preach. All you do is spread what some sites believe. Weather or not you believe the same or atleast similar is irrelevant. Discussing with you is not discussing with you, it is again discussing with sites you find this information off of. |
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Cowboy,Satan is not in hell...
satan walketh about seeking whom he may devour.... We wrestle not agaisnt flesh and blood, but against principalitirs and powers of darkness in the spiritual realm... do a study in The Word...
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Cowboy,Satan is not in hell... satan walketh about seeking whom he may devour.... We wrestle not agaisnt flesh and blood, but against principalitirs and powers of darkness in the spiritual realm... do a study in The Word...
..then how is Jesus/God going to toss "Satan" into the Lake of Fire, if he's not even if there to begin with? o.o |
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Why is it impossible to consider the fact that the evil/wicked could and will ultimately spend ALL of eternity in Hell? You say He died for all our sins.. ..he says all changed from Old to New Testaments. However, Jesus, throughout the Bible, has spoke more openly of the truth and validity of said place of torment. From the words of Bertrand Russel: "There is one serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching–an attitude which is common with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. . . . I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of that sort into the world. . . . I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hellfire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you take Him as His chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that." The people living in Sodom and Gomorrah. Satan. Your Hitlers and your Mansons. The Black Hand members, and many more. You state: "So long as you truly feel in your heart guilty for your false belief and your sins, you will find your way into Paradise." So, by your standards and what you've both proclaimed: ..If not to suffer eternally in Hell, where does such type of people then go? ..and sweet cherry pie.. Do we really now deem Hell as nothing more than just a Hotel Lobby?! Seriously. There is one serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Well for one, "hell" is not everlasting punishment. It's only punishment in the fact that Satan and his angels are no longer in Heaven. They are not tortured in hell or anything, they are placed there because they were kicked out of Heaven for what Satan was saying, believing, and doing in Heaven. If not to suffer eternally in Hell, where does such type of people then go? Lake of fire. Revelations 20:15 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. |
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Well for one, "hell" is not everlasting punishment. It's only punishment in the fact that Satan and his angels are no longer in Heaven. They are not tortured in hell or anything, they are placed there because they were kicked out of Heaven for what Satan was saying, believing, and doing in Heaven. So, in other words.. What Satan did was okay, he just can't go back to Heaven. Meanwhile, unless we "worship" this God of yours, we will suffer even worse than Satan himself? Interesting. Lake of fire. Revelations 20:15 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. ..which is just so fair and just. |
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Cowboy wrote:
Acts 2:31
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. His soul was not left in hell. If it was not left in hell, then obviously he atleast went to hell in one point or nother, for if he wouldn't have went to hell, there would be no way for it to be left there or not for it wouldn't be there. Jesus descended into hell(hades/paridise region ) and took the believing souls in paradise , back up to heaven with Him. But Jesus did NOT " take our place" in hell, as you keep indicating.
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Cowboy,Satan is not in hell... satan walketh about seeking whom he may devour.... We wrestle not agaisnt flesh and blood, but against principalitirs and powers of darkness in the spiritual realm... do a study in The Word...
He's not? Please explain then. 2 Peter 2:4 4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment |
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Well for one, "hell" is not everlasting punishment. It's only punishment in the fact that Satan and his angels are no longer in Heaven. They are not tortured in hell or anything, they are placed there because they were kicked out of Heaven for what Satan was saying, believing, and doing in Heaven. So, in other words.. What Satan did was okay, he just can't go back to Heaven. Meanwhile, unless we "worship" this God of yours, we will suffer even worse than Satan himself? Interesting. Lake of fire. Revelations 20:15 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. ..which is just so fair and just. What Satan did was okay, he just can't go back to Heaven. Meanwhile, unless we "worship" this God of yours, we will suffer even worse than Satan himself? No it was not okay. That is why he was kicked out of Heaven. And no we won't suffer worse then Satan. They will be punished the same at the same time, thrown into the lake of fire. Satan is only in Hell awaiting Judgement. |
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Cowboy wrote: Acts 2:31
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. His soul was not left in hell. If it was not left in hell, then obviously he atleast went to hell in one point or nother, for if he wouldn't have went to hell, there would be no way for it to be left there or not for it wouldn't be there. Jesus descended into hell(hades/paridise region ) and took the believing souls in paradise , back up to heaven with Him. But Jesus did NOT " take our place" in hell, as you keep indicating.
Please give us a verse that says Jesus brought souls out of Heaven when he was resurrected. Because as far as I know, Jesus was the only one that returned. |
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Well for one, "hell" is not everlasting punishment. It's only punishment in the fact that Satan and his angels are no longer in Heaven. They are not tortured in hell or anything, they are placed there because they were kicked out of Heaven for what Satan was saying, believing, and doing in Heaven. So, in other words.. What Satan did was okay, he just can't go back to Heaven. Meanwhile, unless we "worship" this God of yours, we will suffer even worse than Satan himself? Interesting. Lake of fire. Revelations 20:15 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. ..which is just so fair and just. ..which is just so fair and just It is fair and just. The ones that don't have their name written in the book of life is moreorless there own fault. We all have the same chance, the same oppurtunity to partake in the gift of Eternal life. It is our own desicisions of if we wish to be obedient or not that decides our fate eg., people will bring it upon themselves. |
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No it was not okay. That is why he was kicked out of Heaven. And no we won't suffer worse then Satan. They will be punished the same at the same time, thrown into the lake of fire. Satan is only in Hell awaiting Judgement. So, basically.. We have all become "sinners" due to Satan. Yet he gets to kick back in the hotel lobby, doing wtf ever it is they do down there. And when said "judgment" finally happens.. ..only then he does he get to serve the equal punishment, of those who've sinned since he's original cause took place? ..and you still deem such "fair" and "just"? |
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No it was not okay. That is why he was kicked out of Heaven. And no we won't suffer worse then Satan. They will be punished the same at the same time, thrown into the lake of fire. Satan is only in Hell awaiting Judgement. So, basically.. We have all become "sinners" due to Satan. Yet he gets to kick back in the hotel lobby, doing wtf ever it is they do down there. And when said "judgment" finally happens.. ..only then he does he get to serve the equal punishment, of those who've sinned since he's original cause took place? ..and you still deem such "fair" and "just"? Why is it not fair or just? Heck on this Earth you can technically do anything that trips your trigger just as Satan can in Hell. So again, please explain how it is unfair. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 03/11/12 05:06 PM
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YOu go do a study.
It's Your job to open up scriptures and do a study in The Word for once...not my job to go do it for you. IF scriptures says satan walketh abut AS a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour, then OBVIOUSLY that must MEAN satan is STILL WALKING ABOUT YET !!! DO a study for yourself...gotta go.
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No it was not okay. That is why he was kicked out of Heaven. And no we won't suffer worse then Satan. They will be punished the same at the same time, thrown into the lake of fire. Satan is only in Hell awaiting Judgement. So, basically.. We have all become "sinners" due to Satan. Yet he gets to kick back in the hotel lobby, doing wtf ever it is they do down there. And when said "judgment" finally happens.. ..only then he does he get to serve the equal punishment, of those who've sinned since he's original cause took place? ..and you still deem such "fair" and "just"? Why is it not fair or just? Heck on this Earth you can technically do anything that trips your trigger just as Satan can in Hell. So again, please explain how it is unfair. He committed the act that doomed us all, from the start. He gets to kick back for the past, what 20,000 some odd years? Meanwhile, when judgment comes everyone that "sinned" since suffers the same exact punishment at the same exact time; and you call that fair? o.O Let's say I kill 50 people. You kill 1. However you do it 10 years later. I don't start serving my sentence, until you do. And our punishment is the exact same. Fair? |
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YOu go do a study. It's Your job to open up scriptures and do a study in The Word for once...not my job to go do it for you. IF scriptures says satan walketh abut AS a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour, then OBVIOUSLY that must MEAN satan is STILL WALKING ABOUT YET !!! DO a study for yourself...gotta go.
Job 1:7 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. ------------------ Satan said "GOING TO AND FRO IN THE EARTH". That says he coming from somewhere, to the Earth, and back. ====================== Isaiah 14:15 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. ------------ Is speaking to Satan directly here. ============= |
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No it was not okay. That is why he was kicked out of Heaven. And no we won't suffer worse then Satan. They will be punished the same at the same time, thrown into the lake of fire. Satan is only in Hell awaiting Judgement. So, basically.. We have all become "sinners" due to Satan. Yet he gets to kick back in the hotel lobby, doing wtf ever it is they do down there. And when said "judgment" finally happens.. ..only then he does he get to serve the equal punishment, of those who've sinned since he's original cause took place? ..and you still deem such "fair" and "just"? Why is it not fair or just? Heck on this Earth you can technically do anything that trips your trigger just as Satan can in Hell. So again, please explain how it is unfair. He committed the act that doomed us all, from the start. He gets to kick back for the past, what 20,000 some odd years? Meanwhile, when judgment comes everyone that "sinned" since suffers the same exact punishment at the same exact time; and you call that fair? o.O Let's say I kill 50 people. You kill 1. However you do it 10 years later. I don't start serving my sentence, until you do. And our punishment is the exact same. Fair? He committed no act(s) that doomed anyone but himself. Only you can do an action to condemn yourself. You are not accountable for anyone's actions but your own as no one is accountable for YOUR actions. |
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Does anyone know where the need for blood sacrifice originated from? Animal and human sacrifices have been used for offerings and atonement for sins in many religions. Where did this idea come from? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice Thank you. This is pretty much what I thought. I wonder where the idea first came from. I guess we will never know. It is very simple minded I think - humans need food and sustenance and offering a God some form of sustenance of value was undoubtedly seen as a way of showing respect, deference and sincerity in primitive societies toward their deities. It is universal - the idea of sacrifice appears among all major religions and also among Native Americans for example. So I think of it as a form of tribute to an all powerful ruler, that's all. |
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No it was not okay. That is why he was kicked out of Heaven. And no we won't suffer worse then Satan. They will be punished the same at the same time, thrown into the lake of fire. Satan is only in Hell awaiting Judgement. So, basically.. We have all become "sinners" due to Satan. Yet he gets to kick back in the hotel lobby, doing wtf ever it is they do down there. And when said "judgment" finally happens.. ..only then he does he get to serve the equal punishment, of those who've sinned since he's original cause took place? ..and you still deem such "fair" and "just"? Why is it not fair or just? Heck on this Earth you can technically do anything that trips your trigger just as Satan can in Hell. So again, please explain how it is unfair. He committed the act that doomed us all, from the start. He gets to kick back for the past, what 20,000 some odd years? Meanwhile, when judgment comes everyone that "sinned" since suffers the same exact punishment at the same exact time; and you call that fair? o.O Let's say I kill 50 people. You kill 1. However you do it 10 years later. I don't start serving my sentence, until you do. And our punishment is the exact same. Fair? He committed no act(s) that doomed anyone but himself. Only you can do an action to condemn yourself. You are not accountable for anyone's actions but your own as no one is accountable for YOUR actions. And your example is not quite the same thing. Because the punishment/reward will be eternal. What you are saying here is it is unfair to say people that lived here say 300 years ago compared to you or me. The people lived here 300 years ago, but have not been either condemned to eternal death or rewarded with eternal life. No, it is totally fair. Because the punishment/reward will once again be eternal. When speaking of eternity, does it truly matter when you start? Because the punishment/reward will last for ever, what does it matter when it starts? |
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Does anyone know where the need for blood sacrifice originated from? Animal and human sacrifices have been used for offerings and atonement for sins in many religions. Where did this idea come from? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice Thank you. This is pretty much what I thought. I wonder where the idea first came from. I guess we will never know. It is very simple minded I think - humans need food and sustenance and offering a God some form of sustenance of value was undoubtedly seen as a way of showing respect, deference and sincerity in primitive societies toward their deities. It is universal - the idea of sacrifice appears among all major religions and also among Native Americans for example. So I think of it as a form of tribute to an all powerful ruler, that's all. The sacrifice(s) weren't specifically a gift to God. God has all, there is nothing you or me could give or take from God. It was a sacrifice in the fact that you were giving up something YOU needed in asking God for forgiveness. It put sincerity behind your words eg., actions speak louder then words. It was giving up something you needed in display of your greif for what you did or didn't do and a show of trusting in God he will give you what you need back. |
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