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"How did the Pagans know it was necessary? (Granted they used humans which God abhorred)" ?????????????????????? I'm not sure what your question is. I'm talking about the need for blood sacrifice. God did not want them using humans as the blood sacrifice. Ruth is that... Spider? o.O Wow. Either he's really tall or.. well, heh. :X Yes, that is Spider. He is 6'4". 
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Question: "If God hates human sacrifice, how could Jesus’ sacrifice be the payment for our sins?" Answer: The Bible makes it quite clear that God hates human sacrifice. The pagan nations that surrounded the Israelites practiced human sacrifice as part of the worship of false gods. God declared that such “worship” was detestable to Him and that He hates it (Deuteronomy 12:31, 18:10). Furthermore, human sacrifice is associated in the Old Testament with evil practices such as sorcery and divination, which are also detestable to God (2 Kings 21:6). So, if God hates human sacrifice, why did He sacrifice Christ on the cross and how could that sacrifice be the payment for our sins? There is no doubt that a sacrifice for sin was necessary if people are to have any hope of eternal life. God established the necessity of the shedding of blood to cover sin (Hebrews 9:22). In fact, God HIMSELF PERFORMED the very FIRST animal sacrifice to COVER, TEMPORARILY, the SIN of Adam and Eve. He killed an animal, shedding its blood, and made from it a covering for Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21), thereby instituting the principle of animal sacrifice for sin. When He gave the Law to Moses, there were extensive instructions on how, when, and under what circumstances animal sacrifices were to be offered to Him. This was to continue until Christ came to offer the ULTIMATE PERFECT SACRIFICE which made animal sacrifice no longer necessary. “But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins (Hebrews 10:3-4). There are several reasons why the sacrifice of Christ on the cross does not violate the prohibition against human sacrifice. First, JESUS WASN'T MERELY HUMAN. If He were, then His sacrifice would have also been a temporary one because one human life couldn’t possibly cover the sins of the multitudes who ever existed. Neither could one finite human life atone for sin against an INFINITE GOD . The ONLY viable sacrifice must be an INFINITE one, which means ONLY GOD HIMSELF COULD ATONE FOR THE SINS OF MANKIND. ONLY GOD HIMSELF, ANN INFINITE BEING COULD PAY THE PENALY OWED TO HIMSELF !!!!!! This is WHY GOD HAD TO BECOME A MAN AND DWELL AMONG MEN. God had to BECOME MAN and DWELL among men (John 1:14). No other sacrifice would suffice. Second, God didn't sacrifice Jesus. Rather, JESUS ,AS GOD INCARNATE ,SACRIFICED HIMSELF. NO ONE FORCED HIM .He LAID DOWN HIS LIFE WILLINGLY , as He made clear speaking about His life: “NO ONE TAKES IT FROM ME, BUT I LAY IT DOWN OF MY OWN ACCORD. I HAVE AUTHORITY TO LAY IT DOWN and AUTHORITY TO TAKE IT UP AGAIN ” (John 10:18). God the Son sacrificed HIMSELF  to God the Father and thereby
FULFILLED ALL THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW . Unlike the temporary sacrifices, JESUS'S ONCE-AND-FOR-ALL-TIME SACRIFICE was FOLLOWED by His RESURRECTION.. He laid down His life and took it up again, thereby PROVIDING ETERNAL LIFE FOR ALL WHO WOULD EVER BELIEVE in Him and ACCEPT His sacrifice for their sins. He did this OUT OF LOVE FOR THE FATHER and for ALL THOSE THE FATHER HAD GIVEN HIM (John 6:37-40). gotquestions.org
Thank you, MorningSong. This is a wonderful explanation. 
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OK, dumb question for those who wish to answer... If you were around when Jesus was walking the Earth, would you accept His sacrifice for your sins? |
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OK, dumb question for those who wish to answer... If you were around when Jesus was walking the Earth, would you accept His sacrifice for your sins? After much deliberation and debating this question... ..I still have no clue. -.- It depends how much of Jesus I actually saw. If I never saw him before his crucifixion; no. Had I actually witnessed some of said "miracles".. ..then I might. Had I seen such, and was already a believer; then definitely. But for that, I think I'd have to actually be one of the Disciples. Oh how bad a** would that be?! I'd love to write a section in the Bible. :P I'd make it far more clear and precise. -.- |
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OK, dumb question for those who wish to answer... If you were around when Jesus was walking the Earth, would you accept His sacrifice for your sins? Yes, why wouldn't I? |
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Edited by
Peter_Pan69
on
Sun 03/11/12 07:01 AM
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OK, dumb question for those who wish to answer... If you were around when Jesus was walking the Earth, would you accept His sacrifice for your sins? Yes, why wouldn't I? The thought of someone, anyone, dying for my sins makes me uneasy. Deuteronomy 12:29-31 New International Version (NIV) 29 The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. Jeremiah 7:22 King James Version (KJV) 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: I don't know, I see it plain as day. It just bugs me that not everyone sees it the way I do. I don't buy into that "infallible" theory, there are too many predictions about the texts themselves. I see the verse about the lying pens, the verse above, the 10-20 verses claiming how fed up and tired of sacrifices God is, the verse that says not to worship the way heathens do. To me, that's scriptural proof of corruption which gives me free range to reject anything of pagan origin. No one has yet to provide me with scriptural evidence of the "infallible" theory. You can go over what I've posted here and in the Christian forum. Is the Bible inspired? Most definitely, it proves itself right far too often... 
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 03/11/12 12:46 PM
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Obedience is better than sacrifice.
That is what that scripture means....God really prefers obedience. Although God initiated the sacrificial system( no matter how much you may try to discount the bible and say otherwise, Peter_Pan), God really wanted the Israelites's Obedience instead....but God already KNEW they could not obey( thus the reason God initiated the sacrificial system). But then God stepped down and became the Ultimate sacrifice HIMSELF...once and for all time......so that When we believe and accept Jesus ( Who became the Ultimate sacrifice for us all) now, God comes to dwell in us now and HELPS and ENABLES us to obey now, wherefore before, we were not able to obey on our own. When we believe and accept Jesus, God in His Love and Mercy actually steps inside our hearts, and makes us new creations in Christ Jesus now, and give us a heart of Love for God now ....and also places in us a WILLING desire to Please and OBEY God now. What an Awesome God ...Who knew we coud not obey..and so He steps inside our hearts instead, TO HELP AND ENABLE us to OBEY now. Awesome Awesome God !!! We Love You ,Lord !!!!  <<<< tears of joy
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 03/11/12 12:30 PM
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Obedience is better than sacrifice. That is what that scripture means....God really prefers obedience. Although God initiated the sacrificial system( no matter how much you may try to discount the bible and say otherwise, Peter_Pan), God really wanted the Israelites's Obedience instead....but God already KNEW they could not obey( thus the reason God initiated the sacrificial system). But then God stepped down and became the Ultimate sacrifice HIMSELF...once and for all time......so that When we believe and accept Jesus ( Who became the Ultimate sacrifice for us all) now, God comes to dwell in us now and HELPS and ENABLES us to obey now, wherefore before, we were not able to obey on our own. When we believe and accept Jesus, God in His Love and Mercy actually steps inside our hearts, and makes us new creations in Christ Jesus now, and give us a heart of Love for God now ....and also places in us a WILLING desire to Please and OBEY God now. What an Awesome God ...Who knew we coud not obey..and so He steps inside our hearts instead, TO HELP AND ENABLE us to OBEY now. Awesome Awesome God !!! We Love You ,Lord !!!! <<<< tears of joy
But then God stepped down and became the Ultimate sacrifice HIMSELF...once and for all time......so that When we believe and accept Jesus ( Who became the Ultimate sacrifice for us all) now, God comes to dwell in us now and HELPS and ENABLES us to obey now, wherefore before, we were not able to obey on our own Jesus wasn't necassarily a "sacrifice" for us. Jesus came to fulfill/complete the old covenant which required sacrifice and give us a new covenant taht does not require as such. Requires faith in Jesus and obedience to his commands. |
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John XXIII (the second one if you want to be technical), wrote a missive describing how Jesus' death was not as important as was the actual shedding of his blood.
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John XXIII (the second one if you want to be technical), wrote a missive describing how Jesus' death was not as important as was the actual shedding of his blood. How so? Jesus took your place in Hell. How is the mere shedding of his blood more important then that? |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 03/11/12 02:51 PM
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“In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, even the
FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” —Colossians 1:14 Hebrews 9:12 “Neither by the blood of goats and calves,BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD He entered in once into the holy place, having OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION FOR US.” In the old testament( foreshadow of things to come) ,The death of the Passover Lamb Was NOT Enough. When the Lord was going to pass over Egypt and destroy the firstborn, he said to Moses and Aaron in Exodus 12:13... "And the BLOOD shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and WHEN I SEE THE BLOOD, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt." Point being.... The DEATH of the lamb wasn't enough, the BLOOD had to be applied . God wasn't looking for a dead lamb in the backyard; No, rather, God was looking for the APPLIED BLOOD on the doorposts and lintel (doorplate) above the door. The BLOOD had to be applied. There is REDEMPTIVE POWER in the BLOOD of Jesus. Jesus BORE our Sins on that cross and paid the price in full by shedding His BLOOD for us ( there is life in the blood)....... When we believe and receive what Jesus has done for us all, our sins are FORGIVEN AND NOW UNDER THE BLOOD.
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MorningSong, I just want to stop and say this is the first time you and I have completely agreed 100% on a subject.
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Jesus wasn't necassarily a "sacrifice" for us. Jesus came to fulfill/complete the old covenant which required sacrifice and give us a new covenant taht does not require as such. Requires faith in Jesus and obedience to his commands. You completely contradicted yourself here. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 03/11/12 04:14 PM
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Btw Cowboy.....Jesus did NOT " take our place" in hell.
That is Incorrect. Jessu BORE our sins on the cross and paid the price in Full...on the cross. Jesus siad, "It is Finished". That means Done. Paid for IN FULL....meaning.....Jesus did NOT have to also " take our place " in hell. The meaning of Jesus descending into hell is explained below. Now....by Our believing and accepting Jesus , this PREVENTS us from going to hell..but again, Jesus did NOT have to " take our place" in hell . Here..this will clarify : ........................................................ Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?" Answer: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the PERMANENT and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a TEMPORARY place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Sheol/hades is a realm with TWO DIVISIONS (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) WITH Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The LOST SIDE of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20. Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10- 11 as translated in the King James Version, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.” Some have the viewpoint that Jesus went to “hell” or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. It was the death of Jesus on the cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9). As He hung there on the cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. He became sin for us: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross. When Jesus cried upon the cross, “Oh, Father, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46), it was then that He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46). His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to the paradise side of hades. Jesus did not go to hell. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to hell? No. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes. gotquestions.org
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MorningSong, I just want to stop and say this is the first time you and I have completely agreed 100% on a subject.
((((((((( Spider and Ruth))))))))))))))
I Am So Very Happy For You Two!!!!
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Morning Song...
I can tell you copy and pasted that answer. There's not as many typos. xD |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 03/11/12 04:03 PM
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You should see my emails sent in a hurry without
editing first.......... 
my emails are usually totally unreadable !! 
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Btw Cowboy.....Jesus did NOT " take our place" in hell. That is Incorrect. Jessu BORE our sins on the cross and paid the price in Full...on the cross. Jesus siad, "It is Finished". That means Done. Paid for IN FULL....meaning.....Jesus did NOT have to also " take our place " in hell. The meaning of Jesus descending into hell is explained below. Now....by Our believing and accepting Jesus , this PREVENTS us from going to hell..but again, Jesus did NOT have to " take our place" in hell . Here..this will clarify : ........................................................ Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?" Answer: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the PERMANENT and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a TEMPORARY place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Sheol/hades is a realm with TWO DIVISIONS (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) WITH Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The LOST SIDE of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20. Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10- 11 as translated in the King James Version, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.” Some have the viewpoint that Jesus went to “hell” or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. It was the death of Jesus on the cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9). As He hung there on the cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. He became sin for us: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross. When Jesus cried upon the cross, “Oh, Father, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46), it was then that He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46). His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to the paradise side of hades. Jesus did not go to hell. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to hell? No. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes. gotquestions.org
Now....by Our believing and accepting Jesus , this PREVENTS us from going to hell..but again, Jesus did NOT have to " take our place" in hell Jesus "taking our place" in hell was descriptive of what he did when he went to hell. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Sheol/hades/hell whatever you wish to call it is temporary. NOBODY will spend eternity in "hell". Not even Satan will spend eternity in "hell". Hell (the lake of fire) is the PERMANENT and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a TEMPORARY place. Incorrect. Hell and Lake of Fire are to totally different places. Satan is in hell now, he will be thrown into the lake of fire come the end of times for his "judgement" of eternal damnation and torture. Revelation 20:10 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. |
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Btw Cowboy.....Jesus did NOT " take our place" in hell. That is Incorrect. Jessu BORE our sins on the cross and paid the price in Full...on the cross. Jesus siad, "It is Finished". That means Done. Paid for IN FULL....meaning.....Jesus did NOT have to also " take our place " in hell. The meaning of Jesus descending into hell is explained below. Now....by Our believing and accepting Jesus , this PREVENTS us from going to hell..but again, Jesus did NOT have to " take our place" in hell . Here..this will clarify : ........................................................ Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?" Answer: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the PERMANENT and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a TEMPORARY place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Sheol/hades is a realm with TWO DIVISIONS (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) WITH Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The LOST SIDE of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20. Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10- 11 as translated in the King James Version, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.” Some have the viewpoint that Jesus went to “hell” or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. It was the death of Jesus on the cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9). As He hung there on the cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. He became sin for us: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross. When Jesus cried upon the cross, “Oh, Father, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46), it was then that He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46). His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to the paradise side of hades. Jesus did not go to hell. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to hell? No. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes. gotquestions.org
Some have the viewpoint that Jesus went to “hell” or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. It was the death of Jesus on the cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9). As He hung there on the cross, Acts 2:31 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. His soul was not left in hell. If it was not left in hell, then obviously he atleast went to hell in one point or nother, for if he wouldn't have went to hell, there would be no way for it to be left there or not for it wouldn't be there. |
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