Well, I'll take exception to that. I went to a college that was in the top 20 colleges when I went there, and was just listed in the top 20 of all undergraduate schools in the nation just last week. That school would be Colby College.

The fact that people are still throwing stones back and forth after 1000s of posts on this subject, most of which involved people within this thread, speak volumes more than who believes what.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

According to Einstein, you're ALL insane!

There are exceptions to every rule.... at least I hope so.... be nice to be a part of something for a change, but my PTSD just doen't allow much room for trust these days.... can I still play?

The people supporting the status quo by that definition are the insane ones then, because they've been doing the same thing for YEARS supporting this broken system, and not a thing has changed except the government has gained more and more power, and we have less and less money.

And I understand you would take exception to what I said, but regardless of your educational past the fact still remains that it is setup in a way that is not in our best interests or in a way that is going to give us an actual education. The only education we tend to get is how to be a good slave with the rest of the herd. Crude? Maybe so, but totally true.

Kleisto, no offense, but you find fault in everything no matter what. As I've mentioned before, from the posts I've read, I believe you have good intentions. It's your logic that I disagree with, and I believe your passion clouds your vision. I'm not looking to insult you. I'm just stating my opinion, whether you agree with me or not.

Nobody controls me, tells me how to think, or forces me to believe anything. I make my own decisions. The one exception is family, and as we all know, family dynamics often have a way of complicating things just because we have to live with them and see them on holidays and birthdays.

Furthermore, you can't pass judgement on every school and the quality of education they provide. Your own experience is just a small slice of the entire educational system in this country. You've never been to the same schools I have been, so you have no real basis to pass judgement on them. All you have is opinion and hearsay.

For instance, my professors promoted critical thinking and creativity. I took Calculus, Physics, Environmental Science, History, Religion, Music, Philosophy, and plenty of English courses. I even took a course in Logic to improve my critical thinking. My college experience was one of accumulating a wide variety of academic experiences to broaden my horizons and see the bigger picture.

I was VP of the Debate Team, which focused on extemporaneous (or off-the-cuff) debate rather than fact-based debate. They call it Parliamentary debate, and you do not know the topic until just 5 minutes prior to the debate. By comparison, National Debate Tournament (NDT) allows you to know the topic well in advance so you can do research, gather facts, and otherwise prepare your case well in advance of the actual debate. In other words, Parliamentary debate teaches you how to debate any topic at any time, no matter how absurd, while forcing you to work within the limits of your own personal knowledge. You have to acknowledge your own limits while also developing flexibility and logical thinking. In a way, it promotes self-empowerment through self-reliance. You can't get more individualistic than that.

On top of that, every Spring, the CIA came to campus to recruit seniors, primarily because we did have strong Governmental Studies and Economics departments. And every year, there were anti-CIA protests because close to half of the student population felt it was immoral for the CIA to conduct open recruitment of undergraduate students. The argument was that the CIA was targeting undergrads rather than graduate students (Colby has no graduate studies) because relative youth and level of education made undergrads more pliant and malleable than older, more educated graduate students, much like the Armed Forces holding open recruitment in high schools.

I don't see how these experiences have attempted to "make me a good slave". Nor have I met anyone who went to college, and said that the experience did not teach them to be more analytical to some degree.

There are some professors and some institutions which do attempt force their systems of belief on students. I know of such cases happening within the Women Studies department at Smith College. However, the vast majority of students see this for what it is, and don't let it affect them. It is a small minority of students that actually fall to educational brainwashing. In the cases at Smith, certain professors were able to isolate students and become a large part of the students' social life. Only then could the professor begin to warp the student's belief through one-on-one contact outside the classroom.

Social influences are much more likely to influence them than an overbearing Dean or Professor. Brainwashing requires a degree of isolation, a controlled stream of information, and repetition to alter belief and behavior. In effect, it requires inundation and immersion. This is why social circles are more likely to influence behavior than professors or school administration. Students typically spend much more time around their friends than around faculty and staff. In the cases at Smith, the professor actually became the center of the social circle for several students. This was what really gave them power over the students - the social aspect.

Given the number of private and public educational institutions in the country, it is impossible to cast generalizations about our entire educational system and have them hold true. There are just too many of them, and they employ far too many people. In fact, it might make a great analytical thesis for a Math major.

You can have your opinions, we are all entitled to them. I have no issue with that.

Now having said all that, number one, I am sure you don't believe you are controlled, and in fact perhaps you may be more awakened than some others are about the things going on and the things that have gone on in the past. However, whether you want to believe it or not, and whether others want to believe it or not, the government and the media in various different ways throughout history has always had a knack of brainwashing its' people in such a way that they don't believe they are brainwashed. They truly believe they are thinking their own thoughts. In reality though, they are only thinking the thoughts they have been programmed to think, the things they have been conditioned to believe, while rejecting anything else that doesn't fit with that. It is quite subtle, and easy to fall into if you are not paying attention enough to notice it.

So as much as you think you are thinking your own thoughts and that no one is controlling you, this is not something to be discounted, because it's possible some things you think could be the thoughts of someone else.

Number two, you're right I can't pass judgment on every school, or the education they themselves might provide. I am not trying to say I know how they all individually operate or know how all the teachers and professors teach. It may well be that some people will come away with decent education perhaps in spite of the material given to them, and it may well be that some teachers will shoot you straight more than some others, irregardless of the curriculum they are instructed to teach when they take the job. I cannot know those things.

But this really isn't about the schools themselves as much as it is about that which controls them particularly from a public standpoint. Said controller is of course the government, and where the government is involved in the process you can bet that to the best of their ability they are gonna try and control the information that is being given to students, and the information that is not. If they don't want something taught it won't be, it's about as simple as that.

That in a nutshell is really the main issue with the educational system, because you got a biased government running it that's going to ensure it's own interests are met by it even if it's not in the best interests of the students. They have it set up where they in effect are controlling what the students learn, and in so doing, they start the process of teaching them what to think. So long as you have their hands in the business of educating, you will have this.

There may be well intentioned people within the system, good people, people who think they are doing the right thing, and even some that will try and buck the system altogether, but at the root of it, with the government involved, you're not gonna get true education coming out of it, because that won't serve their agenda.

If the people knew even half of the things our government has done, is doing and is planning to do, nobody would trust it, and that's not good for their bottom line. Thus they must do all they can to ensure that the people don't become aware, and controlling the education they get is one way that they try and do it.

The brain is a complex computer that stores information from input.

Choices are made from that input. You see, smell, hear, touch, taste, and every individual receives their input, and all will come to a conclusion based on their thought processes.

Agression is always seen as negative input, no matter how reasonable the message may be. This is one of the MAIN reasons I will NOT argue religion.... IT'S TOO PERSONAL AND FAITH BASED!

The same goes for theory. Without evidence, you can debate and perhaps make a reasonable argument on your opinion, but to attack anothers beliefs will INSTANTLY be perceived a threat and be recorded as such.... and you lose your advantage for compromise, or futher investigation of your ideas.

You meet agression with agression, you form sides, there's a war..... and nobody wins, but there is damage on both sides.

Agree to disagree, debate issues, poke a little fun (lord knows I do!) win a few, lose a few, but make friends, not enemies, and should the time ever come, you can stand together and not have to watch your back!

You asked for "personal" thoughts, here are some of mine...I wrote this a few weeks after 9/11....


The Power of Fear

I've heard it said by scholars, fear can keep you safe.
They cite history as an example when this point they make.

Fear according to Webster is a lot of things.
Horror, panic, trepidation, fear is even pain.

Everyone, they say, will experience fear at times.
An emotion we all have inside, a feeling, yours and mine.

Fear, I guess, has purpose to keep us all alive.
Protected by their office, some say "For fear he did survive."

They use the power of language, use it as a disguise,
to hide their inner truth, their narcissistic rise.

In the air, safe and sound, while men are dying on the ground,
they wait until the dust has settled, then order the plane down.

A rush to find their favorite writer, makeup, a phony frown.
It's time to face the camera, solidify their new crown.

This is you nation, I do rule, my job to keep you free.
Come forward young men, fathers, husbands, your duty is to me.

Your families will be proud of you, you're making history.
If you must die too young, the cause is for good you see.

The price of freedom has no limit, a life cannot erase
your name forever frozen, in a monument of brass encased.

All who now morn you and struggle to survive,
all who still have hope of finding you alive,

will file past your honor, hold you baby tight,
whisper in your daughters ear, for freedom he did fight.

Then place a rose beneath your name, kiss the hallowed spot,
wipe the tears of grief away, tell your child to weep not.

Your father is a hero, he did his country proud.
Somehow we will go on, you're the man of the family now.

I stand apart mesmerized and watch the steady stream.
Place hand to mouth, control my fear, try hard not to scream.

My brothers and my sisters, consumed by only fear,
like sheep to pasture, huddle close, their empty eyes make clear

the cause, though for wrong reasons, will continue to justify
the evil fear in those who live their life on high.

My own tears now are streaming down my ashen face.
They blur my sight, consume my strength, determined to replace

the power of truth I hold within as I stifle my need to run,
stepping closer I see his name, my heart, my soul, my son.

The air leaves my body, my brain evaporates,
on wobbly legs, I join the flock, now my eyes too are blank.

The warmth of the flock comforts me, my thoughts no longer clear,
I too have been defeated by the power, the power of fear.


Do I believe in conspiracy theories, any of them...NO...

Do I embrace war....NO

Do I trust my government...YES

Politics and poetry, why not....

You have been there and done it....you are more entitled than some to play. I might add... you bring a certain calm and a down to earthiness to the table.

You have been there and done it....you are more entitled than some to play. I might add... you bring a certain calm and a down to earthiness to the table.

All I can really say to the above is, if we're losing our freedoms every single day, then we're not fighting for them at all. If we have none, there's none to be fought for.

Further on fear, the joke is really on us, cause they use fear to sell all the bs on us. Fear of terrorists, fear of bombings, etc. It's all a scare tactic to get us to do what they want. That's all it's ever been, and it's worked like a charm.

No the joke is on those who play into the hands of terrorists....


American will always be free...Americans will always be willing (and able) to fight to protect her freedom...

How can we be hated for our freedoms when we hardly have any anymore?

You can think we're free all we want, but you're being flat played like a fiddle. Nothing has changed in the decade since 9-11, we still got the same fear we had then, only difference is we have less rights. That's it.

You are young, you will learn...I hope you never have to know first hand what it is like to live without freedom...

I already do. You're the one that needs to learn here I'm afraid......but I can't force you to see it. It's something you have to see yourself. With that I will leave this conversation there. Not much more to be said.

What sets you apart from these people on this site who seem to be quite an intelligent lot to me.

Now I don't know you from Adam and you could be an out and out expert in Intelligence for all that....but?

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

One Sample of People Involved.

General Stubblebine: I am Major General Albert Stubblebine. I am retired Army Major-General. In my last assignment -- my last command -- I was responsible for all of the Army's strategic intelligence forces around the world. I had responsibility for the Signals Intelligence, Photo Intelligence, Counter Intelligence, Human Intelligence. They all belonged to me, in my last assignment. …

No links to info here, just simply your feelings about 911 and why. You don't have to provide proof of feeling the way you do, just explain why you feel that way. This is just a sounding board if you will. I'll go first.


Did you even read the original post?

Not only did I read the original post I read all posts.

I honed in on two in Particular.

No (1) @ Iam4u
THIS,,,is what CAUSES disbelief in PEOPLE.
The fact that our Government PLACES MATERIAL IN A VAULT SEALED,,until everyone who was THERE to argue ANY FACTS,,are other dead or to damn tired to want to fight over it again.

It was over forty years ago that JFK was assassinated..
America was TOLD HE DIED BY ONE BULLET and ONE SHOOTER!
And the Coriners origenal ducuments are missing?
The original tapes of that moment showed he received three hits?
Then his brothers then MLK,,,,,AND people FEEL BETRAYED!
Of those TRUTHS behind the facts to MANY THINGS DONE BY ANYONE!
OK,,I can see the reasoning of the events of 911 being and having Security issues to want to hide some of those facts..BUT,,MANY ITEMS go into those locked Vaults,,that DO NOT involve National Security,,AND THATS WRONG! They involve LIES...that THEY want to NOT BE Known about for FIFTY YEARS,,,
IF AMERICA HAD NEVER BEEN LIED TO,,WE WOULD HAVE NO REASON TO QUESTION THEIR FACTS? WHY WOULD WE?
Can WE not trust a group of Our Government peers with two or three trusted White House Officials,,(Senators, Governers,?) to review FACTS in Private and seek their truths and SEE all the FACTS AS THEIR FRESH AND CLEAR,,and THEN Impose IN PRIVATE,,all who may have twisted the FACTS IN EACH CASE? So JUSTICE CAN PREVAIL?
Thats all I'm wondering,,and trust me THIS is NOT just about 911 its about TRUTH...IN WHOLE..


That would be my view.

No (2) was the one I replied to which stated that

"The evidence is overwhelming that Al-Qaida is responsible "

This is an incredible statement from an individual on such a massive and tragic event.

BTW several links were posted before mine and you didn't bother to mention, you seem overly interested in mine but I take your point.

Lady this isnt the same country you grew up in and its not the same one I did either.

I know the memories are sweet however put yourself into a young persons shoes in todays world and if you were intelectualy honest you would probably be a 99%